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Old 2018-06-20, 02:43   Link #8421
B214
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Originally Posted by XFire View Post
It never is, though. Its sealed in the same way Ddraig and Albion are sealed, or Trihexia was sealed. It's not something to flip on and off. If she broke or removed the seals, the status quo would change and she would likely re-enter the top ten, but unless that happens she's still outside of it.
Ddraig and Albion got their soul remove from their bodies. Ophis didn't. I don't see how you can say it's the same. At most what they've done to Ophis is like removing the EP from Ise's body at best. Ophis is uninterested in fighting but if she's force too who knows if the seals place on her would work or not.
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Old 2018-06-20, 06:05   Link #8422
DragonOsman
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@XFire: Ophis' power, itself, is the power of infinity. And in Volume 20, it's clearly stated that Ise borrows power from her for Dragon Deification. If she no longer has the power of infinity, then we have an impossibility on our hands that's actually happening. Also, when Ise got his new body, Ddraig said it's a body from a piece of Great Red's flesh and some of Ophis' power. And in Volume 20 when Ise first used Dragon Deification, Ddraig said that the power of the Sekiryuutei's ability is infinite. And in Volume 21, Azazel stated that the reason Ise can handle even having Ophis' power in his body is because he has Great Red's flesh, and that any normal devil or dragon would already be dead. I'd forgotten that her power was sealed, but I still think that before it was sealed, all that had happened was that the amount of power of infinity she had became less. Her power is the power of infinity. She has less of it compared to before. So they just said she's "finite" because it's better to say that than to say that she's "less infinite".

This also means that Ophis didn't actually put any of her power into the snakes she gave the members of the Khaos Brigade that increased their power. Because if she'd actually put any of her power into those snakes, those guys would've died the moment those snakes went inside their bodies.

Also, what I think is that her power just possesses the traits of infinity rather than it being literaly infinite power. You remember what I keep saying about Great Red in this regard, right? Why isn't Great Red called infinite? Keep in mind that unnerfed Ophis was equal to Great Red.
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Old 2018-06-20, 06:40   Link #8423
XFire
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Ddraig and Albion got their soul remove from their bodies. Ophis didn't. I don't see how you can say it's the same. At most what they've done to Ophis is like removing the EP from Ise's body at best. Ophis is uninterested in fighting but if she's force too who knows if the seals place on her would work or not.
They work based on the fact that her power is actually reduced to that level. Nidhgog wouldn't have even been able to harm her otherwise.

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Originally Posted by DragonOsman View Post
@XFire: Ophis' power, itself, is the power of infinity. And in Volume 20, it's clearly stated that Ise borrows power from her for Dragon Deification. If she no longer has the power of infinity, then we have an impossibility on our hands that's actually happening. Also, when Ise got his new body, Ddraig said it's a body from a piece of Great Red's flesh and some of Ophis' power. And in Volume 20 when Ise first used Dragon Deification, Ddraig said that the power of the Sekiryuutei's ability is infinite. And in Volume 21, Azazel stated that the reason Ise can handle even having Ophis' power in his body is because he has Great Red's flesh, and that any normal devil or dragon would already be dead. I'd forgotten that her power was sealed, but I still think that before it was sealed, all that had happened was that the amount of power of infinity she had became less. Her power is the power of infinity. She has less of it compared to before. So they just said she's "finite" because it's better to say that than to say that she's "less infinite".

This also means that Ophis didn't actually put any of her power into the snakes she gave the members of the Khaos Brigade that increased their power. Because if she'd actually put any of her power into those snakes, those guys would've died the moment those snakes went inside their bodies.

Also, what I think is that her power just possesses the traits of infinity rather than it being literaly infinite power. You remember what I keep saying about Great Red in this regard, right? Why isn't Great Red called infinite? Keep in mind that unnerfed Ophis was equal to Great Red.
No.

Ophis has always had the ability to both enhance the power of others and give out blessings.

"Infinity" is a trait. It's like a special ability similar to the things those Nazi-wannabe's from Bleach would have. As long as Ophis had it she couldn't be touched, even by the Longinus. After Samael, she herself ceased to be infinite, meaning she was no longer invincible like before.

Ophis' power reacts with GR's and gives Ise access to those traits because it's inherently something Ophis' energy is capable of, but it's no longer something she herself exhibits.
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Old 2018-06-20, 06:51   Link #8424
DragonOsman
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And how do you know she no longer has those traits? Can you give me definite proof? And yes, like I said, I also consider it just a trait her power possesses rather than her literally having infinite power. Did you read my post?
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Old 2018-06-20, 07:21   Link #8425
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And how do you know she no longer has those traits? Can you give me definite proof? And yes, like I said, I also consider it just a trait her power possesses rather than her literally having infinite power. Did you read my post?
Yes, I read your post on which you unironically used the phrase "less infinite".

She doesn't have the trait because she's explicitly stated to no longer be infinite.

She was a thing.

She is no longer that thing.

Not, she is less of that thing, she is no longer that thing.

Its not exactly a statement that lends itself to interpretation.

Do you have anything to counteract the half dozen times this is stated beyond your interpretation of how her power should work?
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Old 2018-06-20, 07:51   Link #8426
DragonOsman
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She was never exactly stated to have lost it as far as I can remember. What I do remember is Azazel saying this in Volume 21:

Quote:
“Ise can’t see women’s breasts, right? He can’t even speak about them. Every time Ise causes a miracle, it’s by borrowing the power of breasts. As a result, Ise himself has become an embodiment of breasts. Dragon Deification can be said to have been a power-up. Although it was only temporary, his body did indeed handle the power of infinity. If it was an ordinary Devil or Dragon, their body wouldn’t be able to withstand it and they’d die within a few seconds. Ise was only able to defeat Rizevim because he had obtained Great Red’s flesh. However, that is the limit. After having obtained the power of infinity, it would be most unusual if there weren’t any repercussions. I think it’s roughly because you perceive women’s breasts as your own spiritual food, thus therefore, this has resulted in a reverse impact, and it is now your poison. Well, since erotic magazines are so painful for you to look at, my guess doesn’t seem too far off.”
He said "power of infinity", but I think we can probably assume that even if someone without Great Red's flesh were to have Ophis' power, they'd still die in a few seconds. It's not really confirmed that it's only because of Great Red's flesh that the power of Ophis inside Ise still has those traits.

And notice that I said "less infinite" to show that it doesn't make sense to say that and that that might've been why the word "finite" was used instead.
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Old 2018-06-20, 08:48   Link #8427
XFire
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She was never exactly stated to have lost it as far as I can remember. What I do remember is Azazel saying this in Volume 21:



He said "power of infinity", but I think we can probably assume that even if someone without Great Red's flesh were to have Ophis' power, they'd still die in a few seconds. It's not really confirmed that it's only because of Great Red's flesh that the power of Ophis inside Ise still has those traits.

And notice that I said "less infinite" to show that it doesn't make sense to say that and that that might've been why the word "finite" was used instead.
She was stated, over and over, to have "become finite". That she was "no longer infinite". That is a direct statement that she no longer has what made her infinite.

You just quoted a statement saying that it was because of GR's flesh that he was able to obtain and endure that power, and somehow you think that supports the idea that it isn't because of GR that he was able to obtain infinity?

And the fact that "less infinite" doesn't make any kind of sense should have clued you in to the fact that it isn't what the author is trying to say. If he meant she lost power, he could (and did) say that her power has been reduced. He also said alongside and separate from that that she was no longer infinite.

You're literally making assumptions that the author actually meant something entirely different from what is said and shown, acknowledging that they are assumptions, and then acting confused when I point out that they make no sense.
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Old 2018-06-20, 09:33   Link #8428
DragonOsman
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Okay, did she lose those traits in her power when her power got taken, or when she got her power sealed? Which of these are you saying is the one that happened? Answer that. Because she was twice Heavenly Dragon-class at that time and had only lost a part of her power, which still had the traits of infinity, and was already being called "finite". I see it being used with two different meanings at both times.

Edit: I just think her losing the traits of infinity, if it did happen, makes more sense if it happened after she had her power sealed. Because all that happened when she had her power taken by Samael was that she didn't have as much of her power as before. It should still have had the traits of infinity. But I honestly didn't even remember that she had her power sealed.

Anyway, now I want to see if the seal will break when Ophis and Lilith resonate.
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Old 2018-06-20, 13:25   Link #8429
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Okay, did she lose those traits in her power when her power got taken, or when she got her power sealed? Which of these are you saying is the one that happened? Answer that. Because she was twice Heavenly Dragon-class at that time and had only lost a part of her power, which still had the traits of infinity, and was already being called "finite". I see it being used with two different meanings at both times.

Edit: I just think her losing the traits of infinity, if it did happen, makes more sense if it happened after she had her power sealed. Because all that happened when she had her power taken by Samael was that she didn't have as much of her power as before. It should still have had the traits of infinity. But I honestly didn't even remember that she had her power sealed.

Anyway, now I want to see if the seal will break when Ophis and Lilith resonate.
She ceased to be infinite after Samael took her power. She remained insanely strong, but was no longer completely invincible.

And her power after that is never indicated to have those traits again outside of when it mixes with GR's power in Ise.

You guys remember that Vali's DxD doesn't have the power of infinity, right?
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Old 2018-06-20, 13:31   Link #8430
DragonOsman
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Vali's DxD L only has the blessing. Ophis never gave him her power.

And again: she may have no longer been invincible after her power was taken by Samael, but I can't agree with you on her losing the traits of infinity or even just them not being active/awake anymore just from that. It makes more sense for them to not be active/awake anymore only after her power was sealed. When Samael took her power, all that happened was that she just had less of her power compared to before. She should still have had those traits active. They should've gone dormant only when her power was sealed.
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Old 2018-06-20, 13:50   Link #8431
XFire
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Vali's DxD L only has the blessing. Ophis never gave him her power.

And again: she may have no longer been invincible after her power was taken by Samael, but I can't agree with you on her losing the traits of infinity or even just them not being active/awake anymore just from that. It makes more sense for them to not be active/awake anymore only after her power was sealed. When Samael took her power, all that happened was that she just had less of her power compared to before. She should still have had those traits active. They should've gone dormant only when her power was sealed.
She never gives anyone the power of infinity, besides Issei who's specifically noted to be reacting to it differently because of GR. Her still having or using that power is never even suggested post Samael.

Her not being infinite is mentioned over and over as a different and separate effect of Samael. Its mentioned as being something that happened in addition to losing some of her power.
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Old 2018-06-20, 18:18   Link #8432
DragonOsman
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An effect of Samael? Still, though, Vali did only get the blessing. He was never stated to have received her power. With traits or without.

Anyway, the seal on her power might come off when she and Lilith resonate. Though hopefully there's a way for her to regain the traits of infinity too.
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Old 2018-06-20, 20:11   Link #8433
syzorst
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Does anyone find it strange that those of the Lucifer bloodline has no unique ability? Beal has (power of destruction) Phoenix has (immortality as well fire and wind), Sitri (has specialty over water base magic), Agares (has time ability). For the Ruler of Devils to have no unique ability but just immense demonic power is just a little disappointing.

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Old 2018-06-20, 20:52   Link #8434
DragonOsman
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I agree. But I guess the Lucifer bloodline just gives you more potential Demonic Power than other devils in your generation.

@XFire: In Volume 21, Vali told Ise that he received a blessing from the Dragon God. He didn't mention anything about power. Only Ise got that. Ise asked Ddraig in Volume 24 if Ophis could also be trying to turn Vali into a Dragon God with Maouification (and he said something like "because he also has Ophis' power"), but that thing about Vali having her power may have just been his own misunderstanding again like how he thought in Volume 21 that Pseudo Dragon Deification wouldn't allow him to access the power of infinity (it actually does seem to, with how his power in even Pseudo DxD G mode is Heavenly Dragon-class like Vali's in DxD L even though their base levels shouldn't be equal or even similar, and how although Thanatos was able to damage Ise's armor in CxC with his scythe, he couldn't do the same to the DxD armor. You can't say in this case that it's no real proof for it having the power of infinity because Thanatos' scythe couldn't injure Ise's soul in CxC since, like I said, the armor in CxC did get damaged whereas the armor in DxD didn't take any damage at all). And keep in mind that beings equal to or above Ise in DxD G mode or Pseudo DxD G mode can still damage his armor. Like Vidar and Apophis.

Vali said that the power output wouldn't be the same. Maybe it means that Ise in Pseudo DxD G has less of the power of infinity, and that in the True DxD G he's either equal to or stronger than Ddraig in his prime. At least in the one shown in Volumes 20 and 21 (specifying that because after he awakens Great Red's power and Ophis and Lilith have started to resonate, the completed True DxD G mode from that might be even more powerful (or maybe it won't be, but just the power will be easier to use without any problems aside from stamina consumption)).

Another thing stated in Volume 21, in that same chapter, was that Ophis took the aftereffects of Dragon Deification with her own body. Aside from her turning into adult form, which was later fixed from outside help, what else do you think happened to her from that? Any ideas?
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Old 2018-06-20, 22:24   Link #8435
XFire
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I agree. But I guess the Lucifer bloodline just gives you more potential Demonic Power than other devils in your generation.

@XFire: In Volume 21, Vali told Ise that he received a blessing from the Dragon God. He didn't mention anything about power. Only Ise got that. Ise asked Ddraig in Volume 24 if Ophis could also be trying to turn Vali into a Dragon God with Maouification (and he said something like "because he also has Ophis' power"), but that thing about Vali having her power may have just been his own misunderstanding again like how he thought in Volume 21 that Pseudo Dragon Deification wouldn't allow him to access the power of infinity (it actually does seem to, with how his power in even Pseudo DxD G mode is Heavenly Dragon-class like Vali's in DxD L even though their base levels shouldn't be equal or even similar, and how although Thanatos was able to damage Ise's armor in CxC with his scythe, he couldn't do the same to the DxD armor. You can't say in this case that it's no real proof for it having the power of infinity because Thanatos' scythe couldn't injure Ise's soul in CxC since, like I said, the armor in CxC did get damaged whereas the armor in DxD didn't take any damage at all). And keep in mind that beings equal to or above Ise in DxD G mode or Pseudo DxD G mode can still damage his armor. Like Vidar and Apophis.

Vali said that the power output wouldn't be the same. Maybe it means that Ise in Pseudo DxD G has less of the power of infinity, and that in the True DxD G he's either equal to or stronger than Ddraig in his prime. At least in the one shown in Volumes 20 and 21 (specifying that because after he awakens Great Red's power and Ophis and Lilith have started to resonate, the completed True DxD G mode from that might be even more powerful (or maybe it won't be, but just the power will be easier to use without any problems aside from stamina consumption)).

Another thing stated in Volume 21, in that same chapter, was that Ophis took the aftereffects of Dragon Deification with her own body. Aside from her turning into adult form, which was later fixed from outside help, what else do you think happened to her from that? Any ideas?
You aren't listening. I brought up Vali because he's the only other person she's helped grow directly as opposed to her "blessing" like Asia. She used her power as a catalyst to boost him into Maouification. At no point was that power of infinity mentioned.

Ophis has literally never used or been suggested to be using the power of infinity at any time post Samael, outside of Ise where it is explicitly because of GR reacting to Ophis' power.

Ise has the power of infinity engraved into him as a result of taking in Ophis' power into a body made of GR's flesh. It is present in both forms of DxD, but it's explicitly called out as being "the power of infinity". This never occurs when Ophis acts or intervenes after volume 12.

Look, it's possible Ophis' power still has the "element" (for lack of a better word) of infinity in it. But Ophis herself is no longer infinite. When she had it she was literally invulnerable to all attacks, and it was only by separating it from her that Samael was able to hurt her at all. She no longer has that trait.
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Old 2018-06-21, 05:04   Link #8436
Norn
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Does anyone find it strange that those of the Lucifer bloodline has no unique ability? Beal has (power of destruction) Phoenix has (immortality as well fire and wind), Sitri (has specialty over water base magic), Agares (has time ability). For the Ruler of Devils to have no unique ability but just immense demonic power is just a little disappointing.
I was thinking of that myself, but we don't know why or how certain Devils came to have a unique ability. The only thing to go by, is that Rizevim has his [Sacred Gear Canceller] thing.

Another thing to note is that not everyone inherits their ancestor's unique ability. Some get the ability, but in a weaker form, others get the ability but the way it surfaces and takes form is completely different from their ancestor (the Gremory siblings and the Serafall siblings. Especially Sirzechs), others just get skipped entirely.

Then there's cases like Sairaorg, who leans more towards one family trait than another. It is my pet theory that Sairaorg's lack of the power of destruction, outside of his lack of demonic power, is because he's taking after the Vapula side of his blood more than the Bael side. Sairaorg could very well have a kid or descendant who does inherit in the Bael's ability. That being said, we don't know what actually happens when Devils from different bloodlines have a kid, and what causes traits to be dominant and recessive.

Another interesting case is that Bune guy. In his case, his clan's trait had to be awakened and strengthened. We don't know what methods Sairaorg used to get that effect, but it should be possible for other Devils too. But it requires effort

Who knows, Vali may or may not awaken to his own unique ability. His demonic powers are still growing, and he's bound to become a super devil at one point.
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Old 2018-06-21, 05:30   Link #8437
Lucidrago
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Does anyone find it strange that those of the Lucifer bloodline has no unique ability? Beal has (power of destruction) Phoenix has (immortality as well fire and wind), Sitri (has specialty over water base magic), Agares (has time ability). For the Ruler of Devils to have no unique ability but just immense demonic power is just a little disappointing.
Well it was never said that every powerful devil or those descended from them had a special ability. Grayfia's Maou-class and has no special ability.
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Old 2018-06-21, 05:56   Link #8438
syzorst
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Well it was never said that every powerful devil or those descended from them had a special ability. Grayfia's Maou-class and has no special ability.
Yeah I know but I just can't help but find it disappointing. The name Lucifer was hyped so you'd assume those in the bloodline would have overwhelming power and a deadly ability which makes the name Lucifer so well-known like how Bael name is well-known for having the Power of Destruction which is arguably the most dangerous ability of devils which is why the Bael family stands at the stop of the 72 pillars.
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Old 2018-06-21, 06:48   Link #8439
Darksider555
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@syzorst What kind of power would you like to see Lucifer use? I think that some kind of special devil light would be an interesting counterpart since Lucifer is the morning star? Or some kind of lunar power?
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Old 2018-06-21, 07:21   Link #8440
DragonOsman
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Lucifer's power does seem to be bright, no (unless I'm remembering wrong)? The Demonic Power used by the people of the Lucifer bloodline seems to be white and they have special "Lucifer wings" although I'm not sure what they're supposed to look like.

@XFire: You just said it yourself what I've been trying to get at this whole time: "it's possible Ophis' power still has the "element" (for lack of a better word) of infinity in it." What I've been saying is that she may still have had the element until her power was sealed. Even when she was "complete", she wasn't truly, literally infinite. She didn't have literally infinite power. She's just the embodiment of infinity. She represents infinity. And she may have been called "infinite" because of the potency of the "element" or "trait" and how much of it she had inside her power that made her power the "power of infinity". She may have become "finite" because she lost some of that element or trait. She might not have lost all of it. Just enough to no longer be called "infinite". As far as I remember, although she's called "finite" ever since she was Samael'd, there was never any confirmation as to whether Samael really took away that trait or element from her power completely. She probably just had less of the power of infinity compared to when she was "complete", before her power was sealed. If you can find me a quote where it's confirmed, then okay. But for the life of me I really can't remember if there was ever such a thing. So yes, basically, it's very well possible that the power of infinity, however much she has left of it, is sealed right now and nothing more. Because the main reason to seal her power may have been to seal the trait or element inside her power. I mean, think about it for a second. Does it make sense to seal her power if the element or trait of infinity is already gone? What were they sealing if the important thing was already not there anymore?

But yeah, if she really has lost that trait and it's not just sealed, I really hope she can get it back. Lilith should still have it even if Ophis doesn't, for example, and if that's true, something will probably happen in that regard when they resonate. And the seal placed on her might come off at that time too. Though I think her name should be cleared before that somehow if that's the case.
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