[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 7 Requiem of the golden witch

[orangejuicetang]

Ah I see.

The first time I thought it was Kinzo, but that didn't make any sense.

[Swigun]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

It's Yasu, at the time when she was being told about her birth and such. It's implied and speculated that she got some kind of injury from the cliff fall that she thinks makes her somehow inhuman or unworthy of love, like having damaged genitals or something.

> She
Eheh.

[AuraTwilight]

Yea, yea, I know. But it's a two to one majority vote in her stupid persona shit so she is as good as any gender pronoun to use.

[KanonTheFurniture]

I'm not sure if this belongs here, but I thought I'd share.

I'm rereading EP7 (I plan to wait for the full release before 8), and...

Spoiler for EP7 stuff:

In the chapter where Yasu's tale begins, 'a new life', Will and Lion discuss the fate of Yasu vs. the fate of Lion the Successor. Will says that in the non-Lion worlds, this kid isn't given special treatment. Just a short while later, it is said that the reason the other servants didn't get as used to living with Yasu as the family members did is because s/he got special treatment. I'm wondering, is the word/phrase used for 'special treatment' different for both lines in the Japanese? It does come off a bit weird to learn that Yasu didn't get special treatment, and yet, s/he did, because s/he got to go to school and didn't work full-time and all that. I know Will is specifically referring to the fact that there is no silver ring, so Kinzo most likely does not know Yasu's true identity, or else he would be lavishing them with attention and raising them the way Lion was brought up, as a successor. It's just the word choice, with 'special treatment' being used in both, that feels contradictory and weird.

[AuraTwilight]

Spoiler for Answer:

The servants giving Yasu special treatment is not the same as the Ushiromiya family giving Lion special treatment.

[KanonTheFurniture]

I see, that makes sense. I have another thing to ask, too.

Spoiler for EP7:

A friend of mine is currently reading 7 for the first time, which is why I'm rereading it along with her. We just got to the chapter where Shannon first meets Beatrice and then we see her interacting with the kids at the conference. Me and my friend got into a huge argument about what's going on there. I tell her that the scene on the beach is meant to show us the gang IN 1979 discussing times when they were even younger than that, before 1979 (in which they're all around 11 or 12, though they believe Shannon is 9). SHE thinks, because of the sprites used and the theatre scenes that doesn't break the flow of the conversation, that the beach scene is just an extension of their teenage selves (1986 versions) as pieces in the theatre reminiscing ON how they were in 1979...and that the beach scene itself is not PART of the 1979 world. I'm insisting to her that she's wrong, and this was meant to be the world of 1979, since after they leave the beach we go into Battler and Shannon going off together and all that...the flow is pretty terrible, and between his lack of child-version sprites and general failure at transitions, it doesn't come off as obviously to her as it did to me.

Has anyone else seen this scene in that way? I think she's crazy, though I see WHY she might be confused...because the way Clair's story goes, this scene, with the cousins on the beach, is clearly meant to be saying 'this is the cousins in 1979 goofing off'...not 'here, the beach background and the theatre background can both show the 1986 piece cousins flashing back to how they behaved in 1979'. It's supposed to be the 1979 conference we're seeing on the beach, right? After all, we just saw the family get off the boat and set the stage for that conference moments beforehand. Can someone explain this a bit more clearly so I can convince her? Otherwise I fear she'll be more confused down the line.

[AuraTwilight]

It's 1979, as she'll see when she sees adult sprites being used at other points in the timeline. But the ambiguity and general meta-bullshit means that it could, for all we know, be meta versions of the characters getting on stage with stage hands putting up a beach backdrop, while the characters "act out" their memories.

[unsuspectingvisitor]

i just finish ep7 but i don't get the part when Will started to talk about earth to earth and illusion to illusion. what does it mean? can someone answer this question?

[AuraTwilight]

Earth to Earth means it really happened (like the person is really dead or the door was really locked), Illusion to Illusion means a trick (the person was faking death, or the door was never locked).

[unsuspectingvisitor]

oh so thats what it means. But i still don't understand Will's answer though.

Spoiler for Ep7:

I don't understand all of it especially his answer in the fourth game.The first and second twilight he answered with illusion to illusion so that means everyone is still alive? and fourth to eight twilight there's earth to earth so does it mean at that point they the culprit started to kill all of them?. Sorry about this its just that i don't understand it. Its confusing since i thought everything that happened was real.

[battle22]

EP1 1st twilight (the 6 corpses in the shed)
Illusions to illusions. ......The corpse that cannot return to earth returns to illusions.
this mean's one of the dead was alive.

EP1 2nd twilight (Eva and Hideyoshi in the guestroom)
Illusions to illusions. ......A chain of illusions can only hold back illusions.
this means that room was never a close room. kannon lied

EP1 4th twilight (Kinzo in the boiler room)
Illusions to illusions. ......Let the man of illusions go to where he belongs.
since kinzo is already dead . the illusion of kinzo that he's still alive in october 4 is now destroyed

EP1 5th twilight (Kanon in the boiler room)
Illusions to illusions. ......The witch and stake of illusions can pierce naught but illusions.
kannon faked his death

EP1 6th 7th and 8th twilight (Nanjo, Kumasawa and Genji in the parlor with Maria singing.)
Illusions to illusions. ......Illusions are the blind girl's song. Illusion of a closed room.
that room was never a closed room.


hope i helped. lol

[unsuspectingvisitor]

Originally Posted by battle22

EP1 1st twilight (the 6 corpses in the shed)
Illusions to illusions. ......The corpse that cannot return to earth returns to illusions.
this mean's one of the dead was alive.

EP1 2nd twilight (Eva and Hideyoshi in the guestroom)
Illusions to illusions. ......A chain of illusions can only hold back illusions.
this means that room was never a close room. kannon lied

EP1 4th twilight (Kinzo in the boiler room)
Illusions to illusions. ......Let the man of illusions go to where he belongs.
since kinzo is already dead . the illusion of kinzo that he's still alive in october 4 is now destroyed

EP1 5th twilight (Kanon in the boiler room)
Illusions to illusions. ......The witch and stake of illusions can pierce naught but illusions.
kannon faked his death

EP1 6th 7th and 8th twilight (Nanjo, Kumasawa and Genji in the parlor with Maria singing.)
Illusions to illusions. ......Illusions are the blind girl's song. Illusion of a closed room.
that room was never a closed room.


hope i helped. lol

so in the first twilight shannon corpse is basically nonexistent. ok thanks i kinda get it now. So what about the second,third, and fourth game?

[Kealym]

Originally Posted by unsuspectingvisitor

so in the first twilight shannon corpse is basically nonexistent. ok thanks i kinda get it now. So what about the second,third, and fourth game?

Most of the solutions keep the theme of "Yasu faked death" and "an adult lied". Also, the answers for the Episodes past one enter some very ambiguous territory. However, I believe the consensus leans towards :

Turn
First Twilight (Parents in the Chapel)
"Illusions to Illusions - the gold truth locks the lock of illusions."
The chapel was never a closed room. Rosa lied.

2nd Twilight (Jessica and Kanon, in Jessica's room)
"Illusions to Illusions - illusions who have fulfilled their roles don't leave a corpse."
This was not a closed room. Kanon killed Jessica, and Shannon dropped the 'Kanon' persona permanently, afterwards.

4th-6th Twilight (Shannon, Godha, and George, in Natsuhi's room)
"Earth to Earth. Noone would dispute that a coffin is a closed room."
This is a true closed room. Shannon killed the others, then herself.

7-8th Twilight (Nanjo and Kumasawa in the courtyard)
"Earth to Earth. Illusions to Illusions - no illusion can create a corpse."
Shannon killed Nanjo and Kumasawa. The servants lied about Kanon being responsible.

Banquet
First Twilight (Servants + Kinzo in the linked closed rooms)
"Illusions to Illusions - in a closed room ring, the beginning and the end overlap."
Shannon was the first corpse founds - when the adults left her room, she moved to the chapel to be found again as Kanon, who was the final corpse.

2nd Twilight (Rosa and Maria in the garden)
"Earth to Earth. No falsehoods in their final moments as told."
It is very likely that Eva killed them

4th-6th Twilight (Rudolf, Kyrie, and Hideyoshi in the mansion)
"Earth to Earth. No falsehoods in their final moments as told."
All three were shot to death in the mansion. It is highly debatable whether an argument arose between them (which may or may not have included Eva), or if Yasu killed them.

7-8th Twilight (Krauss and Natsuhi in the arbor)
"Earth to Earth. The obvious culprit wields a mutable blade."
Also debatable. It is likely that Eva killed them, but Yasu placed the stakes afterwards.

Alliance
First Twilight (Kinzo's massacre)
"Illusions to Illusions - tales woven by the golden truth return to illusions."
Many lies surround this part of the narrative. It's likely that Yasu went wild with the gun.

2nd Twilight (Jessica in her room, George in the garden)
"Illusions to Illusions - tales woven by the golden truth return to illusions."
More lies. Yasu likely shot them both, and may have had Genji's assistance.

4th-8th Twilight (Kyrie's group)
"Earth to earth. Illusions to Illusions. Silent corpses, adorned by fiction."
More lies. Yasu likely shot them all, then herself, in such a way that the gun would fall into the well. Kanon is not found because his body is the same as Shannon's.

9th Twilight (And none shall be left alive)
"Earth to earth. Illusions to illusions - when fiction is shut up inside a catbox, it becomes truth."
BOMB destroyed all the evidence.

The 4th game game provides very little in the way of specifics regarding ANYTHING.

[AuraTwilight]

What those guys said. They pretty much nailed it.

[Kirroha]

Can someone explain to me just why would the people even cooperate with Yasu's killings, even if she does have the money? Are they that desperate for Yasu to send money to their remaining families back home?

[Von Himmel]

4th-6th Twilight (Shannon, Godha, and George, in Natsuhi's room)
"Earth to Earth. Noone would dispute that a coffin is a closed room."
This is a true closed room. Shannon killed the others, then herself.

7-8th Twilight (Nanjo and Kumasawa in the courtyard)
"Earth to Earth. Illusions to Illusions - no illusion can create a corpse."
Shannon killed Nanjo and Kumasawa. The servants lied about Kanon being responsible.

How is this even possible?

[Kirroha]

Originally Posted by Von Himmel

How is this even possible?

Don't forget. The 7-8th twilights of Turn happened before the 4-6th twilights. It's just that their bodies were found later than the latter.

[Von Himmel]

Ah I see...that explains it

[unsuspectingvisitor]

While i am reading this i apply what Aura said about "Earth to Earth" and "Illusion to Illusion" but i realize there's something odd...

Originally Posted by Kealym

Turn
First Twilight (Parents in the Chapel)
"Illusions to Illusions - the gold truth locks the lock of illusions."
The chapel was never a closed room. Rosa lied.

if this twilight is "Illusion to Illusions" so it must mean that they are still alive right?

2nd Twilight (Jessica and Kanon, in Jessica's room)
"Illusions to Illusions - illusions who have fulfilled their roles don't leave a corpse."
This was not a closed room. Kanon killed Jessica, and Shannon dropped the 'Kanon' persona permanently, afterwards.

this also a faked death of both jessica and kanon.

4th-6th Twilight (Shannon, Godha, and George, in Natsuhi's room)
"Earth to Earth. Noone would dispute that a coffin is a closed room."
This is a true closed room. Shannon killed the others, then herself.

7-8th Twilight (Nanjo and Kumasawa in the courtyard)
"Earth to Earth. Illusions to Illusions - no illusion can create a corpse."
Shannon killed Nanjo and Kumasawa. The servants lied about Kanon being responsible.

possible that she also killed the victim of first and second twilight since it both have "Earth to Earth"

Banquet
First Twilight (Servants + Kinzo in the linked closed rooms)
"Illusions to Illusions - in a closed room ring, the beginning and the end overlap."
Shannon was the first corpse founds - when the adults left her room, she moved to the chapel to be found again as Kanon, who was the final corpse.

faked death but afterwards they died instantly during the other twilight that have "Earth to Earth".

2nd Twilight (Rosa and Maria in the garden)
"Earth to Earth. No falsehoods in their final moments as told."
It is very likely that Eva killed them

i think beatrice also help at some point since rosa was heavy to lift alone by Eva.

4th-6th Twilight (Rudolf, Kyrie, and Hideyoshi in the mansion)
"Earth to Earth. No falsehoods in their final moments as told."
All three were shot to death in the mansion. It is highly debatable whether an argument arose between them (which may or may not have included Eva), or if Yasu killed them.

but there's a high probability that it was Eva since those two have hideyoshi with them.

7-8th Twilight (Krauss and Natsuhi in the arbor)
"Earth to Earth. The obvious culprit wields a mutable blade."
Also debatable. It is likely that Eva killed them, but Yasu placed the stakes afterwards.

Alliance
First Twilight (Kinzo's massacre)
"Illusions to Illusions - tales woven by the golden truth return to illusions."
Many lies surround this part of the narrative. It's likely that Yasu went wild with the gun.

2nd Twilight (Jessica in her room, George in the garden)
"Illusions to Illusions - tales woven by the golden truth return to illusions."
More lies. Yasu likely shot them both, and may have had Genji's assistance.

there was the "Illusion to Illusion" again so it must mean no one actually died during those twilights.

4th-8th Twilight (Kyrie's group)
"Earth to earth. Illusions to Illusions. Silent corpses, adorned by fiction."
More lies. Yasu likely shot them all, then herself, in such a way that the gun would fall into the well. Kanon is not found because his body is the same as Shannon's.

this is spot on.She killed everyone including first and second twilight victim.But i never knew shannon commit suicide at that time though.
9th Twilight (And none shall be left alive)

"Earth to earth. Illusions to illusions - when fiction is shut up inside a catbox, it becomes truth."
BOMB destroyed all the evidence.

what's with the "illusion to illusion" though i don't get that part.

Well i just realize that the "Earth to Earth" thing can also be used as time of death since the Red truth doesn't really specify the time of death of anyone that have been declared "Dead"

[AuraTwilight]

if this twilight is "Illusion to Illusions" so it must mean that they are still alive right?

I was giving EXAMPLES. Saying that SOME part of the murder is faked, not EVERYTHING.

Can someone explain to me just why would the people even cooperate with Yasu's killings, even if she does have the money? Are they that desperate for Yasu to send money to their remaining families back home?

A popular theory is that Yasu isn't actually killing people, but is hosting a pretend murder mystery game that everyone is in on except the cousins, but then someone else takes over and kills for real.

Evidence for this includes the fact that both EP5 and EP6 involve faked murders being used against Erika.