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Old 2014-05-23, 01:30   Link #81
IceHism
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Uh, have you forgotten how much his head was tinkered with? Aside from the skills he got from his mentors, a lot of his abilities were a product of human experimentation. Those abilities don't naturally exist in Tatsuya. By extension, his other abilities were only possible because he was artificially made into what he is right now.
Decomposition, Regrowth, Elemental sight and large reserves of psions were all natural and born into him.
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Old 2014-05-23, 01:31   Link #82
Lucarion
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I stopped liking Kirino as soon as the home stretch began. Personally, I thought that the story would develop into "two siblings finally getting along after a long time of ignoring each other's presence", but nope, it just had to go to the romance route.
The story always meant to go there. It was obvious since volume 1, you simply do not make the imouto your main heroine without having her in mind for the end game. Plus, OreImo was like commentary/ thesis on the incest genre and its impact on otaku culture.
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Old 2014-05-23, 01:34   Link #83
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Originally Posted by IceHism View Post
Decomposition, Regrowth, Elemental sight and large reserves of psions were all natural and born into him.
I also think his intelligence was part of him before he was born what I meaning to say tatsuya is very intelligent before he was operated by his mother and aunt if I remember correctly
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Old 2014-05-23, 01:35   Link #84
Marcus H.
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The story always meant to go there. It was obvious since volume 1, you simply do not make the imouto your main heroine without having her in mind for the end game. Plus, OreImo was like commentary/ thesis on the incest genre and its impact on otaku culture.
It's not like he's supposed to end a story about sibling love in an actual romantic route.

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Decomposition, Regrowth, Elemental sight and large reserves of psions were all natural and born into him.
I think at this point, a lot of people now understand why I don't like Tatsuya.
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Old 2014-05-23, 01:39   Link #85
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Because of his natural abilities? I can cite you more than 3 characters born with OP abilities. Heck, all the TMC magicians are born with OP skills but they are scattered in the regular magic system. His powers are the result of being a Yotsuba of the 2nd lineage specialized to the extreme.
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Old 2014-05-23, 01:41   Link #86
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Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
It's not like he's supposed to end a story about sibling love in an actual romantic route.



I think at this point, a lot of people now understand why I don't like Tatsuya.
If you don't like tatsuya or miyuki or the ln itself why do you bother in reading it ?

If you don't like certain character why post here? To show your hate on certain character?

If you don't like this character then post the tread you do like, or go to the general tread of the subforum so we can prevent this topic escalated to war tread
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Old 2014-05-23, 01:51   Link #87
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Because of his natural abilities? I can cite you more than 3 characters born with OP abilities. Heck, all the TMC magicians are born with OP skills but they are scattered in the regular magic system. His powers are the result of being a Yotsuba of the 2nd lineage specialized to the extreme.
Listing them down, including issues with the universe:
• Tatsuya is born with natural abilities that are more powerful than what a normal mage acquires at birth
• Has weak magic affinity compensated by artificial methods, including advanced technology and bodily surgical procedures
• All known fights were of little risk except for Miyuki's close brush with death. Only one known death in the supporting cast in Tatsuya's side, most wins are against people who hold back against him or mooks who can't really hold a candle against him. Most losses can't even be counted because they are hard counters.
• Politics contributes to less direct approaches in combat, sometimes resulting in unbelievable periods of peace between enemy factions
• Focus on Tatsuya shifts the standard of "decent magic" such that any other mage that isn't Tatsuya seemed underwhelming -> main gripe with having an overpowered MC
• Team fights are still centered on Tatsuya's skills
• Other factions seemed weaker than intended
• Tatsuya's "weaknesses" are not hard weaknesses. Regrowth's pain amplification only gives Tatsuya cold sweat when a normal person can't properly function well under extreme pain, and his prohibition to use secret military spells can be avoided by actually not enrolling him in a high school as a student in the first place.

And the list goes on.
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Old 2014-05-23, 01:54   Link #88
Lucarion
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And you guys refuse to call him a Gary Stu.

Hmm? Good point. Maybe it's because...

1) He's a ruthless, merciless, selfish, and utterly twisted, Machiavellian, motherfucker capable of great cruelty and vindictiveness and is portrayed as the farthest thing from a moral paragon as possible. A being to be feared rather than loved, but nevertheless respected.

2) He's not universally loved. People who are not antagonistic to him have expressed their dislike of him on occasion. And that some of his friends(Miyuki included) sometimes think that he's way of thinking is a little warped (his inability to understand "good will" for one thing).

3) The story doesn't just revolve around him and actually gives the other characters subplots and agendas of their own. Heck, even some of his friends like Mayumi are technically aligned with rival factions.

4) The fact that he's based on Shiva--from his personality, down to his powers--completely destroys any idea of him possibly being some kind of self-insert character.

5) His powers are justified by his training background, his genius, and his pedigree.
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Old 2014-05-23, 01:57   Link #89
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^ you really do hate tatsuya why post here? Nvm ~_~ all I can say is that every character has weakness

Even overpower ones like tatsuya has weakness kill miyuki 2 scenario might happen tatsuya destroy the world or tatsuya decomposed himself

Due to losing his last emotion that prevent him from self destruct that is her sister
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Old 2014-05-23, 02:09   Link #90
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1) He's a ruthless, merciless, selfish, and utterly twisted, Machiavellian, motherfucker capable of great cruelty and vindictiveness and is portrayed as the farthest thing from a moral paragon as possible. A being to be feared rather than loved, but nevertheless respected.

2) He's not universally loved. People who are not antagonistic to him have expressed their dislike of him on occasion. And that some of his friends(Miyuki included) sometimes think that he's way of thinking is a little warped (his inability to understand "good will" for one thing).

3) The story doesn't just revolve around him and actually gives the other characters subplots and agendas of their own. Heck, even some of his friends like Mayumi are technically aligned with rival factions.
But then again, most of his friends only want to take advantage of being with someone like him, which really takes away the sincerity of friendship in the series. As you said, Tatsuya's friends actually belong to other factions. 1 and 2 aren't really de-suifiers. For example, Kirito also has moments where he's not nice to others, but he's still regarded as a Stu. Especially for #2, any author worth a read would use a main character's superior intellect as a source of conflict with his peers. That doesn't mean that him having a superior intellect is completely justified.
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Old 2014-05-23, 02:19   Link #91
Lucarion
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I think at this point, a lot of people now understand why I don't like Tatsuya.
Then your reasons are frankly silly. What exactly is wrong with having these powers if it's justified by the story? So I was right. You just don't like overwhelmingly powerful characters. Even when they're handled well like Tatsuya is.

Also, again, Shiva? Shiva has all those powers. The ability to reverse time, heal wounds, practically raise the dead, destroy everything in creation--Tatsuya has no power that his mythological basis doesn't.

Going back to why I think his OPness is handled well, it's because of this:

1) Tatsuya was based on Shiva. And because Shiva himself is overpowered. When Tatsuya was made, he had to be overpowered. His level of power was integral to his meaning as a character. Which means his OPness is not an amateurish fluke by the writer, but was something that was put there on purpose. It was intentional. If it was intentional that means the author had it in his mind to make something out of this--and he did. By showing in the story that even if you are as powerful as Tatsuya, it counts for squat since not everything can be solved by brute force and that killing the people causing the problem doesn't necessarily fix the actual problem. Politics is still the way to go about thing, and in this field Tatsuya is still a little green. His OPness is used to strike a point about the nature of power--it isn't always about who has the biggest boomstick. Actually, it even kinda makes him look pathetic: his powers are useless for the stuff he really wants to do; he comes up with all these ingenious ways to use magic, but he can't use them himself and he needs the skills of people around him. His powers are only good for war. And the fact that despite being a god for all intents and purposes--other people can still boss him around. Because they've gotten a hold of his thumbscrew and are making use of it.

2) By not making Tatsuya into a moral paragon, the story turned him into the wild card whose power can tip the scale to the favor of anyone who gets their hands on him. Tatsuya does only what Tatsuya thinks is good for his and his sister's interests. He's not motivated by a sense of right and wrong, a sense of justice, nor does he have any sort of attachment to any one faction or ideology. Miyuki is his only care in the world. And he's perfectly willing to work with anyone that ensures her well-being and safety. By making Tatsuya an utterly selfish magnificent bastard that means the story isn't endorsing any one kind of viewpoint as "righteous" or "villainous" because Tatsuya himself doesn't really care about that stuff. He just wants to live in peace with his sister.

3) Tatsuya's the most powerful character around because he put in all his effort place himself in that position, and he's hell bent on staying there. Tatsuya is terrified of another Okinawa incident, his time in Volume 8 was the clumsiest Tatsuya we've ever seen since he was still working on some of his abilities at that point, and when he lost Honami and especially when he almost lost Miyuki, just the idea of loss nearly drove him mad. He doesn't want that to happen, and there are hints in the novels that he isn't exactly satisfied with his powers and he's beginning to question his own existence. This means he can still grow. And this, now begs the question: "just how much more powerful is he going to get?" This, I think is fascinating direction for his character growth.
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Old 2014-05-23, 02:36   Link #92
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Also, again, Shiva? Shiva has all those powers. The ability to reverse time, heal wounds, practically raise the dead, destroy everything in creation--Tatsuya has no power that his mythological basis doesn't.
Is it even confirmed that Tatsuya is based on Shiva or was this merely speculated by characters in the story?
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Old 2014-05-23, 02:42   Link #93
Lucarion
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But then again, most of his friends only want to take advantage of being with someone like him, which really takes away the sincerity of friendship in the series. As you said, Tatsuya's friends actually belong to other factions. 1 and 2 aren't really de-suifiers. For example, Kirito also has moments where he's not nice to others, but he's still regarded as a Stu. Especially for #2, any author worth a read would use a main character's superior intellect as a source of conflict with his peers. That doesn't mean that him having a superior intellect is completely justified.
Marcus, Sue discussions...are silly. It'll go nowhere. Because the term is way to vague to describe and too broad that it can mean anyone. Because none of us are EVER able to completely agree on what a Sue actually means. But going with the traditional definition of Sue...Tatsuya simply doesn't fit.

But let's go with what you said about 1 and 2.

The difference is this:

1) Kirito's jerk moments are portrayed as just that--he's a bit of jerk because he's a socially awkward boy who has trouble interacting with people sometimes. His heart is still in the right place, and in the end he still does the right thing. Tatsuya? When he acts like a jerk, it's portrayed as a genuinely horrible thing to do. The way he kills surrendering enemies, engages in manipulation, and his genuine lack of concern for anyone who has nothing to do with himself or his sister are terrible traits for a human being. Kirito was a "Hero". Tatsuya is a "Demon King".

2) Nope. I'm talking about characters who are portrayed as smart and competent in their own right. Like Shizuku's mom for instance, she's got some pretty legit reasons for not liking Tatsuya, and other characters have also expressed a reason for why though they might respect him for his abilities, they don't really like him because he strikes them wrong. I'm not talking about his intelligence making people feel jealous of him, I'm talking about people in the story who stated good reasons why they dislike Tatsuya.

Last edited by Lucarion; 2014-05-23 at 02:59.
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Old 2014-05-23, 02:56   Link #94
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Is it even confirmed that Tatsuya is based on Shiva or was this merely speculated by characters in the story?
Wait? How far have you even read into the story? Cause by now the Shiva parallels are pretty damn obvious. (Especially if you're a Miyuki Shipper).

All his names and aliases (and even the fact that he has a lot of names) are related to Shiva. He is surrounded by characters who like him were also based on characters from the Shiva myths, he shares the same personality, the same disposition, went through the same tribulations (Shiva was looked down on and laughed at too, but he didn't really care), share the same complex and contradictory nature--being both the gentle creator and the terrible annihilator of men, he is described by various characters in a similar way to how Shiva was described by the people around him in mythology, and he also shares the same set of powers and capabilities.

His weapon is the Trident. (Heck, look at Trident and the compare the symbol on the gun to Shiva's Trident)

He possesses the Third Eye which he seals because the moment he opens it he will burn everything in its sight.

His black suit is reminiscent of his Bhairava aspect.

Ushiyama is his companion Nandi.

Miyuki is his Shakti(Parvati).

Lina is Kali(and also the star Sirius)

His father Tatsurou is Daksha.

And? Should they eventually fight? Maya is Maya.

Add to this his Mahesvara and "The Destroyer" epithets.


Heck, even some of the Japanese fans caught on to this and are basically treating the whole series like a big association game.

Last edited by Lucarion; 2014-05-23 at 03:19.
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Old 2014-05-23, 03:07   Link #95
Marcus H.
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I always thought of the Shiva stuff as a gimmick. Meh. I'm not really liking the approach.
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Old 2014-05-23, 03:12   Link #96
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I always thought of the Shiva stuff as a gimmick. Meh. I'm not really liking the approach.
Then don't read simple as that why you force yourself reading it, you probably will ignore it again oh well I won't join this discussion unless we change the topic. That's all
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Old 2014-05-23, 03:13   Link #97
Lucarion
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I always thought of the Shiva stuff as a gimmick. Meh. I'm not really liking the approach.
No. Answer me. How far have you even gotten into the story? I'm assuming you've read up to volume 12 at least?

And it's not a gimmick. It's the whole point. It makes Mahouka stand out, but at the same time it's also integral to the story itself.

What exactly don't you like about this story? Aside from Tatsuya?
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Old 2014-05-23, 03:18   Link #98
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Volume 13 hints seems to imply Tatsuya DOES have a hard weakness though. This weakness is that he can't tell what his natural limits are, so when he starts going anywhere above normal, Miyuki's berserk button goes off. It touches on it when he's training his Far Strike, but the hints indicates that she really explodes about it in Volume 13.
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Old 2014-05-23, 03:20   Link #99
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Change of topic: Do you think tatsuya will break the third unsolvable problem of the 3 great problem in mahouka?

Do you think Japanese government and 10mc will search the true identity of mahesvara?

If tatsuya's mahesvara persona discover by 10mc what do you think happen especially this 4 mayumi, koichi, masaki and juumonji found out will they experiment him or take him and sister away from yotsuba?
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Old 2014-05-23, 03:21   Link #100
Echizen777
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Listing them down, including issues with the universe:
• Tatsuya is born with natural abilities that are more powerful than what a normal mage acquires at birth
He is born with powerful abilities but it does'nt mean the other born with powerful abillities can't keep up. And remember it is to the price of not being able to use normal magic. That's all he could do.

Quote:
• Has weak magic affinity compensated by artificial methods, including advanced technology and bodily surgical procedures
Correction, they tried to solve his problem of not being able to use magic. It was a failure, his normal magic is extremely weak.Advaned technology is available for anyone and is physical body was not enhanced. They just gave him Flash Cast and a weak artificial MCA.

Quote:
• All known fights were of little risk except for Miyuki's close brush with death. Only one known death in the supporting cast in Tatsuya's side, most wins are against people who hold back against him or mooks who can't really hold a candle against him. Most losses can't even be counted because they are hard counters.
Nobody died in his camp so what? It's common, excepted some terrorists and No Head Dragon Tatsuya didn't kill major villains.Tatsuya is one of the strongest magicians, thus only the strongest can rival him. There are magicians who rival him but they don't fight to death or aren't villains. Lina would have killed him if she wasn't emotionally weak. AFAIK he loses everyday against his master and they both hold back since it's training. They are his only losses. Of what counters are you talking? Phalanx? These abilities are not only effective against his magic and don't think Katsuto is strong only because of this magic.
• Politics contributes to less direct approaches in combat, sometimes resulting in unbelievable periods of peace between enemy factions
Quote:
• Focus on Tatsuya shifts the standard of "decent magic" such that any other mage that isn't Tatsuya seemed underwhelming -> main gripe with having an overpowered MC
Hum, 10MC magicians are overpowered magicians, everytime one is involved it is noted how powerful they are. Miyuki is overpowered. Which fight was underwhelming to you?

Quote:
• Team fights are still centered on Tatsuya's skills
It was only the case in the Monolith Code final. Not in Yokohama and Visitor arc.

[QUOTE]• Other factions seemed weaker than intended[QUOTE]

Which factions? You know the 10MC have huge influence and his clan is the strongest of them all. Japan have the strongest magicians if you count individual assets while the only strong magician we know in the GAA is Lu Gonghu.
Quote:
• Tatsuya's "weaknesses" are not hard weaknesses. Regrowth's pain amplification only gives Tatsuya cold sweat when a normal person can't properly function well under extreme pain, and his prohibition to use secret military spells can be avoided by actually not enrolling him in a high school as a student in the first place.
Regrowth isn't unbeatable. His weakness is his weak magic meaning that he is not versatile. He is obliged to go to school to guard his sister and was interested also because of the libraries. He tried to keep a low profile but it didn't work well.
I am not forcing you to like him but Tatsuya's powers are not so much more powerful than everyone else. It's not as if he was the first invincible hero in the story.
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