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View Poll Results: Schwarzesmarken - Episode 11 Rating
Perfect 10 1 12.50%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 2 25.00%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 2 25.00%
7 out of 10 : Good 2 25.00%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 12.50%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 8. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2016-03-21, 12:52   Link #21
vic-vic
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Join Date: May 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Botan_TM View Post
They could plant them in ground between waves and make a nuclear mine field.
The problem is that while buried nuclear bomb can destroy entire wave of BETAs, until you destroy the hive BETA easilly can send another dozen of thousands of creatures in the attack. And then again and again...
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Old 2016-03-21, 13:10   Link #22
Heir of the Void
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Originally Posted by vic-vic View Post
The problem is that while buried nuclear bomb can destroy entire wave of BETAs, until you destroy the hive BETA easilly can send another dozen of thousands of creatures in the attack. And then again and again...
But conventional defenses suffer the exact same problem.

To clarify, I wouldn't advocate a pure thermonuclear stragety, which probably wouldn't even world. However, I would say that humanity is at too much of a disadvantage for battlefield atomics not to be a standard portion of large-scale operational doctrine, under the right conditions.

In this case, the best use would probably be to use short-range, high-speed cruise missiles carrying 500 kt to one-megaton warheads for mutually-reinforcing detonation patterns against large concentrations attacking the Oder-Neisse Line.

The kilotonage is high enough to use bombs with a fusion fraction above 95% for minimal fallout while retaining easy supersonic delivery, and the semi-encirclement pattern reinforces the effects of the IR/thermal flash effects of the bombs while allowing them to be detonated somewhat closer to your own fortifications without danger (because each bomb effects a smaller radius, but more of them are used for the necessary coverage).

As an example of how this might work, a nuclear attack might be immediately preceded by the ripple-firing of a huge number of rocket artillery pieces to saturate and occupy the laser batteries. Some rockets would fire HE/ICM rounds to pose a crediable threat, others would fire rockets loaded with active junk electronics to make them look tastier to BETA tenchno-sensing.

At the same time, the cruise missiles would be ground-launched with booster rockets from positions below line of sight of the probable laser locations, allowing them to get up to speed. Once they cross the line, the RL Moskit missile has a speed of Mach 3, so it would only take twelve or so seconds for it to get to the safe airburst position ten-plus kilometers away (though with properly built forts, much closer detonations would likely be safe).

There would be a number of dummy rockets, all loaded with more scrap electronics that are much more 'advanced' than the actual warheads, serving to minimize the chance of an actual interception.
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Old 2016-03-21, 18:39   Link #23
B214
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Originally Posted by Botan_TM View Post
They could plant them in ground between waves and make a nuclear mine field.
The BETA can just dig underground to pass through. Also i think you'll end up killing your own people more than the BETA if you create a nuclear mine field, i for one wouldn't want to imagine what a multiple consecutive nuclear explosion would be like.
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Old 2016-03-21, 18:49   Link #24
Heir of the Void
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The BETA can just dig underground to pass through. Also i think you'll end up killing your own people more than the BETA if you create a nuclear mine field.
There are ways it could be done in light of that concern, but in general the nuclear minefield setup is sub-optimal for a number of other reasons. Namely, ground-bursts and especially near-surface subterranean detonations do, in fact, produce fallout of the 'immediate local deterministic threat' sort. Plus, the effect of the blast and especially the IR flash will be reduced by any amount of terrain with such a low detonation point.

Further, its only when they reach your defense lines that the BETA need to concentrate their numbers to have the best odds of punching through; the minefield would thus need to the fairly close to the line to work, making the aforementioned fallout a much bigger concern.

Then, you need to bury the bombs in advance anywhere you might be attacked and leave them there, subject to wear and attrition, rather than keeping them secure on mobile launchers that can be moved to near where an attack will fall.
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Old 2016-03-22, 00:11   Link #25
Wandering Soul
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RIP Gretel. No one is safe.
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Originally Posted by Last Sinner View Post
Lise's info was legit. Turns out she was able to defy the Stasi in some way in her dying moments. Definitely amplifies the feels and allows viewers to remember her on a somewhat more positive note.
This. They let her have one moment of defiance against the Stasi which means she got to die as more than just a slave to the Stasi. It was also nice to see most of the 666 unit mourning her.
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Old 2016-03-22, 01:28   Link #26
Last Sinner
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RIP Gretel. No one is safe.

This. They let her have one moment of defiance against the Stasi which means she got to die as more than just a slave to the Stasi. It was also nice to see most of the 666 unit mourning her.
Those people would be the only ones that would ever mourn Lise. To the rebels, Lise was an enemy and someone that made them unable to trust Theodor. To the Stasi, she was the sister of a traitor. To Beatrix, she was someone suffering more than Beatrix - which seemed to give her satisfaction upon hearing of Lise's death.

Beatrix and Axmann definitely played a lot of people for fools. Pretending to be feuding factions when they were still allies all along. They're worthy villains.
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Old 2016-03-22, 11:21   Link #27
Botan_TM
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Originally Posted by Heir of the Void View Post
There are ways it could be done in light of that concern, but in general the nuclear minefield setup is sub-optimal for a number of other reasons. Namely, ground-bursts and especially near-surface subterranean detonations do, in fact, produce fallout of the 'immediate local deterministic threat' sort. Plus, the effect of the blast and especially the IR flash will be reduced by any amount of terrain with such a low detonation point.

Further, its only when they reach your defense lines that the BETA need to concentrate their numbers to have the best odds of punching through; the minefield would thus need to the fairly close to the line to work, making the aforementioned fallout a much bigger concern.

Then, you need to bury the bombs in advance anywhere you might be attacked and leave them there, subject to wear and attrition, rather than keeping them secure on mobile launchers that can be moved to near where an attack will fall.
I think only point of doing that is to detonate chosen nuke only when some group of Laser class is in area and when other methods to kill them fails. About attrition I say that hundreds of nukes are just laying in bases anyway.
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Old 2016-03-22, 11:43   Link #28
Heir of the Void
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Originally Posted by Botan_TM View Post
I think only point of doing that is to detonate chosen nuke only when some group of Laser class is in area and when other methods to kill them fails. About attrition I say that hundreds of nukes are just laying in bases anyway.
The problem is that when you use the nukes as a weapon of last resort, you're doing it wrong. Because once other methods to kill the BETA have failed, you've already suffered some losses, and the idea is to use the nukes so as to keep your conventional forces as intact as possible.

Whatever some people might like to say about the western doctrine of keeping pilots as safe as reasonably attainable, preservation of forces really is essential to a dominant stragety.
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Old 2016-03-22, 14:15   Link #29
Botan_TM
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The problem is that when you use the nukes as a weapon of last resort, you're doing it wrong. Because once other methods to kill the BETA have failed, you've already suffered some losses, and the idea is to use the nukes so as to keep your conventional forces as intact as possible.

Whatever some people might like to say about the western doctrine of keeping pilots as safe as reasonably attainable, preservation of forces really is essential to a dominant stragety.
Not a method to kill Beta, but to kill Laser-class. As I have noticed, before fully engaging Beta armies are trying to kill Laser-class in order to use save aerial/artillery bombardment. So as a last resort if Laserjagd etc. failed. Such loses are tolerable

Both yours and mine idea is about killing those with small nukes.

So basically such order: try get Laser-class with cruise missiles, if if do not work perform Laserjagd or hope they walk close to nuke mine, after succeeding in any of those sent a barrage.
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Old 2016-03-22, 15:18   Link #30
Heir of the Void
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Originally Posted by Botan_TM View Post
Not a method to kill Beta, but to kill Laser-class. As I have noticed, before fully engaging Beta armies are trying to kill Laser-class in order to use save aerial/artillery bombardment. So as a last resort if Laserjagd etc. failed. Such loses are tolerable

Both yours and mine idea is about killing those with small nukes.

So basically such order: try get Laser-class with cruise missiles, if if do not work perform Laserjagd or hope they walk close to nuke mine, after succeeding in any of those sent a barrage.
Something like that. I was focusing on using airbusts to minimize fallout, but redundant strategies are always a good thing.

Hum... One way you might be able to address some of the challenges with nuclear land mines would be if you could use 'just-in-time deployment'. Maybe some kind high-speed vehicle that could sally past the MLR and rapidly emplace the mines, along with a bunch of decoys. Ideal decoy would probably be the physics package of the mine with the electronics mimicked as closely as possible (prehaps slightly more) and including anti-tamper devices.

As for yield... the U.S. W80 (produced starting in 1980) has a maximum diameter of 12 inches and is 32 inches long, weighs a bit under three hundred pounds, and has a variable yield that can be set to anywhere from 5 to 150 kilotons.

Popping a few of these off on Nukemap, it appears that the with the W80, the 400+ joule/cm^2 effect zone (this is the range where the thermal flash can be expected to have explosive effects) will have a radius of slightly more than 1.5 kilometers, and the 20 psi blast overpressure zone would extend out to at least one kilometer, and would be signfigantly less affected by terrain features. I believe it is entirely reasonable to expect that any Laser-class caught in this radius would be destroyed.

The rather more... creative... thermonuclear anti-laser stragety I've come up with is a bit more outlandish and possibly less suitable for defensive operations. It's something I call The Strategic Flashbang.
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Old 2016-03-22, 23:50   Link #31
mergele
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Shouldn't this by now be moved to the military tactics thread? Not that I really complain, we have more than enough space here.
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