2010-06-11, 23:33 | Link #2262 |
Moderate Haruhiist
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Hate is a form of Love. :P People tend to forget that.
Also, it's something you get used to in this fandom. Fifteen years on, and you'd think I haven't seen these kinds of reactions before? That's why I take the nerd rage in stride, though it is fairly discomfiting to see it on people who're younger than me in the hobby.
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Last edited by Myssa Rei; 2010-06-12 at 00:30. |
2010-06-12, 02:08 | Link #2263 | |
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
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Please tell me where I am wrong.
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2010-06-12, 02:14 | Link #2264 |
Minmay Guard
Join Date: May 2009
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I thought a Mary Sue was an idealized authorial stand-in character...
Like if I were to write an Eva fanfic, and introduced Yot-chan, the Sixth Child, who everyone immediately respects and bows down to. So unless you're suggesting that Mari is Anno's self-insertion character...I don't think she's a Mary Sue. |
2010-06-12, 02:24 | Link #2266 | |||
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
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She also lacks noteworthy flaws compared to the other characters so far, and just seems to many people's wet dream of an evangelion pilot actually making full use of their piloting in a "fun" way. Anno clearly favors her a lot because of what I said in my previous post. And I don't have a general gauge on the entire Evangelion fanbase, but the large amount that are in the same camp as I, see her as pointless. Further comments, I'll requote my previous requote of a poster Quote:
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2010-06-12, 02:28 | Link #2267 | |
Moderate Haruhiist
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Practical experience in fanfiction shows me that, if anything, Mari is not a Mary Sue (self-inserts and Mary Sues in general seem to be a Western concept, as I sure as heck don't see them in non-hentai Japanese doujin). If anything, she's a parody of one, given her rather poor track record -- she hasn't gotten Shinji to fall in love with her, hasn't treated Asuka and Rei to a hot lesbian threesome (trust me, it happens), hasn't curb-stomped the Angels (as in, taken them out effortlessly without a scratch), nor does she have everyone else worshiping her like ADAM's gift to humanity. :P The term that I THINK you're looking for is The Wesley, and even then we can't say that for sure, as she's only been in one movie, so we can't even be sure if Anno really favors her as some people are reading in his interview (which I couldn't see myself). If she does even half of what I mentioned above, then we can agree that she's a Mary Sue. Rather, I think she's closer to EVA's version of Golden Lion Shiki: an old concept (or a reworking of one) that was introduced because opportunity (the movies) presented itself to the creator. Hmm, now where did I put those old concept drawings for the series.
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Last edited by Myssa Rei; 2010-06-12 at 02:44. |
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2010-06-12, 02:41 | Link #2268 | |
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
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Now perhaps she didn't get Shinji to fall in love with her... But apparently she became his grand motivator in the battle agianst Zeruel... (DAMNIT THEY TOOK OUT KAJI'S SPEECH ), so I can definitely see Shinji for whatever reason taking a liking to her (Though perhaps not in the same way as he does Asuka/Misato/Rei before finding out she is a clone). As for everyone worshiping her, well in this case our Sue character isn't known to the general characters yet so it's not really all that valid of a point (Plus this isn't the type of series where characters fawn over each other as if they were school girls in a harem show). EDIT: I don't think she's a Wesley character. I'm bent on applying the definition of Mary Sue to Mari unless you can sufficiently explain to me otherwise
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2010-06-12, 02:49 | Link #2269 | ||
Minmay Guard
Join Date: May 2009
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But still, that's not really the issue. The issue (for me, at least) that pretty much EVERYONE in EVERY anime is "idealized" in some way, or is a "wish fulfillment" character (yes, even Shinji in the TV series). As such, the term becomes meaningless. And I dunno...most of the people I've talked to like Mari. It's hard to say if she's pointless yet or not, since she only had three scenes in the movie. Why is she in Tokyo-3? Who sent her? Why did she have to sneak in? Why did she know about "The Beast"? If these questions don't play out in the next movie, then yes, I'll agree that she's pointless. But the story's not done yet. Look at it this way...in episode 8 of the original series, Kaji delivers Adam to Gendo. That scene is not really connected to the preceding scenes, nor it is referred to in the next few episodes. By episode 10, were you complaining that that scene was pointless? Or did you figure that it was the start of a plot thread that would be picked up later in the series? |
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2010-06-12, 02:53 | Link #2270 | |
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
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2010-06-12, 03:02 | Link #2271 | |
Moderate Haruhiist
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In the early days, before 'ground rules' were even agreed upon, Mary Sues in EVA fanfiction were RAMPANT. Second only to self-inserts, actually. My experience first as a member of EFML, the old Darkscribes, in Evafics.org, then as caretaker of Asuka's Notebook and... Well, inasmuch as I wasn't that a good writer myself in those days, I didn't do self-inserts or Mary Sues. It was just, wrong. Hmm, I digressed a bit. Suffice to say that, if you're familiar with Shinji and Warhammer 40k, the feats of UNIVERSE BREAKING that Shinji does in that Story is a good barometer of what Mary Sues have been seen doing in EVA fiction on and off in the past decade and a half -- which Mari, I have to say, hasn't even done anything close. She's gotten her arse kicked, twice, in what I might add was not a curb-stomp; in fact it was the opposite, as SHE was the one stomped thoroughly by Zeruel. The only aspect about her that, really, could be said to be vaguely Mary Sue-ish is the 'plans within plans' comment she had, but that's it. Everything else is still plausible within the context of the movies -- even her usage of Unit-02 and the Beast Mode (which that little quip by Ritsuko alludes to be an actual in-built feature this time around).
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2010-06-12, 03:03 | Link #2272 | |
Minmay Guard
Join Date: May 2009
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To be REALLY honest, the only thing about your post that bugs me is that the term "Mary Sue" gets bandied about SO much that I find it really, really annoying. Hanging out in Macross discussions (which are my home base, so to speak), you have Sheryl fans calling Ranka a "Mary Sue." You have Ranka fans calling Sheryl a "Mary Sue." You have Alto haters calling him a "Gary Stu." After a while, it seems like it simply means "A character who I don't like but who is successful in their goals." But I think it's still a useful term, if used in its original context: a fanfic character who is an idealized authorial proxy. Simply put, I don't like seeing any good, useful, specific term becoming overgeneralized, mushy, and meaningless. It's probably already a lost battle, but there ya go. |
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2010-06-12, 03:10 | Link #2273 | ||
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
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I'm not one to often throw around any term like Mary Sue often... And yes, perhaps I am stretching it "a bit" to call Mari a Sue... But I really don't think she's too far off from one. Quote:
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2010-06-12, 03:25 | Link #2276 |
Moderate Haruhiist
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Yot-chan said it well. Your use of Mary Sue does not segue with what old-timers know of Mary Sues.
Also pray tell, if you're as geeky as you think you are, did you never ever think of this when you saw Mari? Spoiler for ^__^:
Yes, old timers find many reasons to find Mari amusing and likeable. And, if you didn't know, I'm a massive MASSIVE Asuka fan (*cough*Asuka's Notebook*cough*). And I love Mari too.
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2010-06-12, 03:28 | Link #2277 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
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I shall add that I've always found Asuka to be too much of a tsundere bitch. And yes, she was quite a tsundere in the original show. The only different is that while to took many episodes to see that in the show, in 2.0 you see her tsundere quickly simply because of time constants.
Yes, while a part of me was in shocked horror when Asuka looked like she died (I have an innate love of tsunderes) another part of me enjoyed the bitch getting put in her place....that being six feet under. Oh yes, I went there. Now that Rei has actual emotions instead of being a drone, I can see why she quite popular in Japan. Her rare smile is so moe and heartwarming. I like Mari because she brings an air of mystery to the movie since unlike the other character, we know nothing about her inner demons and her motives nor do we have any clue what her fate at the end of the story will be. This is so wonderful since it gets me excited once again for Eva unlike many other movie compilations of animes that are pointless since I already know what will happen. Plus, how can you not love ZA BEASTO! I want a poster of that. At least a desktop wallpaper. Last edited by bigdeath; 2010-06-12 at 03:49. |
2010-06-12, 03:31 | Link #2278 | |
Moderate Haruhiist
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bigdeath: Some of the more crackpot theories on both sides of the Pacific peg her as a refugee from Daitenroku or Diebuster. The saner of us think she's a pawn for one of the three powers(SEELE, NERV, UNEF), but is aware she's a pawn and is just enjoying herself as much as she can.
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2010-06-12, 03:35 | Link #2279 | |
Minmay Guard
Join Date: May 2009
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I dunno...nearly everyone I've talked to (in real life) about Eva lost sympathy with Asuka by the end of the TV series, but I never did...maybe I'm just weird. |
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2010-06-12, 03:41 | Link #2280 | |
Moderate Haruhiist
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So, spread the gospel, sister. Was I bothered a bit about Asuka's decreased height and bust size? Maybe a little. Was I bugged that her role is basically shared now with a new character? Heck no.
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movie, remake |
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