[Manga] Chapter 295 Discussion

[Syaoran]

Could it be possible that "that jutsu" is something Naruto could be doing in his mind ? Performing some kind of jutsu that could unleach Kyuubi completely ? A little like what Gaara did for Shikaku to take over completely.

Kyuubi is supposed to be wise, so I think this might be a possibility. It would be an offence to kitsune to make kyuubi dumb ^^' Currently Naruto/Kyuubi is very impulsive.

As for possible people to come in between the fight, nor Kabuto or Sakura are able to do so. Sai could be trying to do something for his mission, but for him it's best when Naruto get out of his kyuubi frenzy. He'll be very weak by then and that's perfect time for Sai to carry out his mission, whatever it might be.

The only one left would be Yamato and his Mokuton Bunshin (Mokuton/Mokuzai [=wood], what's the right term ^^' ? ) Since they're two, he might be performing some kind of seal, like what the sound four did with the Sasuke barrel.

Possibly that Sasuke comes in to stop Yamato, but that's unlikely... there're enough people for this fight yet.

Another more tragic theory would be Sakura coming in between Kyuubi and Orochimaru, hoping Naruto gets back to normal after seeing her, but she would most likely get killed by one of them and if she succeeds, Naruto is as good as dead as well.

This might be a good point to insert a flashback about Naruto's training with Jiraiya; Kishimoto did it a few times during important battles : Naruto vs. Gaara, Gaara vs. Kimimaru, Naruto vs. Sasuke ...

[Sankari]

Originally Posted by Syaoran

Could it be possible that "that jutsu" is something Naruto could be doing in his mind ? Performing some kind of jutsu that could unleach Kyuubi completely ? A little like what Gaara did for Shikaku to take over completely.

Kyuubi is supposed to be wise, so I think this might be a possibility. It would be an offence to kitsune to make kyuubi dumb ^^' Currently Naruto/Kyuubi is very impulsive.

As for possible people to come in between the fight, nor Kabuto or Sakura are able to do so. Sai could be trying to do something for his mission, but for him it's best when Naruto get out of his kyuubi frenzy. He'll be very weak by then and that's perfect time for Sai to carry out his mission, whatever it might be.

The only one left would be Yamato and his Mokuton Bunshin (Mokuton/Mokuzai [=wood], what's the right term ^^' ? ) Since they're two, he might be performing some kind of seal, like what the sound four did with the Sasuke barrel.

Possibly that Sasuke comes in to stop Yamato, but that's unlikely... there're enough people for this fight yet.

Another more tragic theory would be Sakura coming in between Kyuubi and Orochimaru, hoping Naruto gets back to normal after seeing her, but she would most likely get killed by one of them and if she succeeds, Naruto is as good as dead as well.

This might be a good point to insert a flashback about Naruto's training with Jiraiya; Kishimoto did it a few times during important battles : Naruto vs. Gaara, Gaara vs. Kimimaru, Naruto vs. Sasuke ...

The jutsu might be like you said that naruto does it in his mind, but I don't think naruto has grasped the chakra of kiuybi well enough to unleash the complete hell of kiyubi, I'd say 4 tails is the max for naruto at the moment, any more and he should be dead, his body isn't big enough yet to use more chakra of kiyubi as he's already doing. I don't see sakura dying, either. I have always liked the comparison about Jiraiya = naruto, Sakura = Tsunade, Sasuke = Orochimaru, so they will probably be the next "legendary sannins". Ofcourse Sakura could die, but I don't see that happening. And yes I agree, I'd want to see flashbacks of narutos training with jiraya aswell, it usually happens when they will finally show the true results of theyr training, it would be perfect opportunity to show the flashbacks and naruto uses "that jutsu". I enjoy the naruto kiyubi more than the moron naruto so I can't understand these people who are whining, but everyone has theyr own opinions.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by uchiha rave

Dont bad mouth my jiraiya, im saying that jiraiya could keep get and blow him away with rasengan because jiraiya is strong enough to deal with it if need be, orochimaru cant deal with naruto's jutsu head on so he runs from it.

Even by the ridiculous assumption that Jiraiya could blow away this attack with a mere Rasengan that would still mean that he couldn't take the attack head on and would have to negate the attack with another jutsu... just like Oro did.

And konohamaru killing jiraiya with a kunai ... does?

Of course it doen't as I'm using the same kind of "reasoning" than you.

[Tettsuo]

I've said it before and I'll say it again....

4 tailed Naruto has more raw power than anyone we've seen in the manga so far. Potentially, he can kill anyone in that form. But, Naruto doesn't have the skill of an Oro or a Jiraiya and that offsets his raw power.

So why would it be disappointing for a 4 tailed Naruto to have the capacity to kill Oro when a 4 tailed Naruto could kill just about any character in the manga in a fight?

Personally, I don't see any of the characters in the manga stopping a 4 tailed Naruto with force. They'll have to wait him out and hope that Naruto collapses from all the damage Kyuubi's chakra is doing to him.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Of course it doen't as I'm using the same kind of "reasoning" than you.

If they were to have similar probability of effectiveness you might be right. Jiraiya would not summon Gamabunta just to avoid Konohamaru's kunai.

Kyuubified Naruto's attack falls somewhere in between Konohamaru's kunai and Itachi's MS. I believe getting closer to Itachi's MS should refer to a sufficiently high strength level. Also, I believe there is a close relationship between the power of your jutsu and your strength.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

If they were to have similar probability of effectiveness you might be right. Jiraiya would not summon Gamabunta just to avoid Konohamaru's kunai.

I think you're missing the point because Orochimaru waiting to be hit by the Kyubi's chakra bullet like a sitting duck and Jiraiya waiting to be stabbed though his brain with a kunai have exactly the same probability of effectiveness : 100% certain death.
The point being of course that none of them will patiently wait for that to happen.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Hunter

I think you're missing the point because Orochimaru waiting to be hit by the Kyubi's chakra bullet like a sitting duck and Jiraiya waiting to be stabbed though his brain with a kunai have exactly the same probability of effectiveness : 100% certain death.
The point being of course that none of them will patiently wait for that to happen.

I got the point, but still, saying no relationship exists between the technique being used (by saying any technique can kill) and the user's strength does not seem to me right. (maybe I read it wrong)

As you mentioned, no one is going to wait as a sitting duck, but the effort the non-sitting ducks put to survive an attack and the possibility of the attack overcoming the effectiveness of the defense should suggest the strength of the ninja. I don't know if there is an exception in the Narutoverse, but that is what I currently belive.

[Hunter]

No, what you say is indeed true and the attack Naruto just did is tremendously more powerful than a kunai, I doubt more than a handfull ninja in the world can avoid being killed by it.
I wasn't comparing the potential of a kunai compared to this jutsu, the point was uchiha rave saying that given that Orochimaru couldn't t just let the attack strike him without being affected by it(!) he was disapointing.
Which is just plain stupid because in this case even a kunai could do the job.

[Mr. Johnny 5]

Remember Kiba's awesome duo transformation...that couldnt even break through 1 gate...and was enormously powerfull..Oro summoned 3 of them..

That ball just broke through Orochimaru's absolute defense...that thing is more powerfull then Rasengan/Chidori (any other jutsu shown so far) and could be as powerfull as Ameterasu. Since i doubt Jiraiya's defense could hold such a ball..

Anyway i had no idea that Kusanagi could stretch like Ichimaru Gin's Shinsou...alot seemed copied from eachother (other anime) these days. Kishi might be out of new idea's.. the sword has a name as if it is a soul slayer itself

Anyway..ending the fight this chapter this way makes me think that someone else will appear... or atleast will interupt the fight..(Jiraiya?)

Also if Orochimaru summons huge snakes or Manda then i could be fun ..

[Sethi]

These people are simply humans sure they are ninjas but apart from that there is nothing more to it so a kunai would be more than enough to kill any of them, In Naruto they block or dodge every single attack because if they are hit they suffer like any of us would, we never saw anyone in Naruto take a Kunai head on without doing nothing, apart from Naruto there isn't any other ninja capable of healing himself(that we saw so far at least), in other words basically they are not Super Saiyans that can stay put and take a energy ball capable of destroying the planet without blocking it and still live to tell the tale. So Let's face it, if Oro took that attack head on he would be ashes by now as he should be. Besides I think being able to block such an attack shows Oro is indeed one of the strongest Ninjas ever.

As for the chapter itself i think it was kinda slow paced, Naruto took almost the entire chapter to just fire the damn thing, but MY GOD was that powerful, 3 Rashoumon the size of Gamabunta were blown to pieces to defend it, and also finally Oro was able to move Naruto from where he was with a nice Stab from Kusanagi. But like many have said before i think this fight is being to long, its best for either situations to happen soon, or Oro is going to get seriously wounded in the next chapters and retreat leaving Yamato and Sakura to try and stop Kyuubi-Naruto or Sakura calls out to Naruto and manages to awaken him from his anger like she did with Sasuke when he had the CS active.
I honestly don't think nor do i want to see Kyuubi-Naruto losing against Oro, if he did lose now like this then this manga would turn completly crappy because any chance of Naruto being able to defeat Oro or any other S ranked nin by himself without going Kyuubi will be just a dream. I've said it in another thread but i'll say it again, Naruto in this form is pretty much the most powerful Human that ever lived(Given no other Kyuubi Jinchuriki existed), he has more chakra than all 3 Sannins together, he can heal himself almost instantly not to mention every attack he throws is enough to destroy small armies. Basically what i'm saying is that if a 4 Tailed Naruto can't win against Oro then a normal Naruto would never do so no matter what he uses, and if that's the case then this show is going to be only about Naruto becoming Kyuubified to fight S class people in which event the story would lose most of its interest since the main driving point to this story is how a loser can become a elite through hard work, and not how a loser can become a elite through the use of a ALL POWERFUL DEMON, heck even i would become the strongest like that.
So given all those situations either 4 tails Naruto beats the sh** out of Oro or it's best if Kishimoto after returning Sasuke back to the leaf or kills him, creates another time skip for the characters to become even stronger.

[astayanax]

I honestly don't think nor do i want to see Kyuubi-Naruto losing against Oro, if he did lose now like this then this manga would turn completly crappy because any chance of Naruto being able to defeat Oro or any other S ranked nin by himself without going Kyuubi will be just a dream.

Actually it is the other way around. If Naruto beats Oro than the manga becomes crappy. You have to bear these things in mind:

- Naruto is a very inexperienced Ninja. Furthermore, he isn't a genius like Itachi, Orochimaru etc.

- Naruto right now is using 4 tails, which isn't even 40% of Kyuubi's powers. If he can beat Orochimaru now, you basically can say he can beat anyone in the series which is stupid as we all know sooner or later we will see a 5 tailed Naruto, then a 6 tailed one etc. Naruto undefeatable at this point will completely turn the story around as everything will now resolve about keeping Naruto out of Kyuubi form.

- There are many people who had defeated demons before, which includes the 4th. Even after receiving attacks from Kyuubified Naruto in pre 4 tails form, guys like Kabuto and Deidara shrugged it off with laughs yet are quite cautious about abilities like the MS and the Sannin.

- Sasuke still should be around Naruto's power now at least; with the way his absence is currently being played.

- We still haven't seen Orochimaru at his full power yet. As for Rashoumon, I can't remember but didn't Sakon called it his ultimate defense that he learnt from Orochimaru? If so, this doesn't imply it is Orochimaru's ultimate defense, especially as he summoned 3 of them.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5

Also if Orochimaru summons huge snakes or Manda then i could be fun ..

He cannot take the risk of losing Manda.

By the way what kind of summon is that gate? Oro could be able to summon three of those (and without using a scroll). Does he have a gate-farm or something of that sort?

[Tettsuo]

Originally Posted by astayanax

Actually it is the other way around. If Naruto beats Oro than the manga becomes crappy. You have to bear these things in mind:

- Naruto is a very inexperienced Ninja. Furthermore, he isn't a genius like Itachi, Orochimaru etc.

- Naruto right now is using 4 tails, which isn't even 40% of Kyuubi's powers. If he can beat Orochimaru now, you basically can say he can beat anyone in the series which is stupid as we all know sooner or later we will see a 5 tailed Naruto, then a 6 tailed one etc. Naruto undefeatable at this point will completely turn the story around as everything will now resolve about keeping Naruto out of Kyuubi form.

- There are many people who had defeated demons before, which includes the 4th. Even after receiving attacks from Kyuubified Naruto in pre 4 tails form, guys like Kabuto and Deidara shrugged it off with laughs yet are quite cautious about abilities like the MS and the Sannin.

- Sasuke still should be around Naruto's power now at least; with the way his absence is currently being played.

- We still haven't seen Orochimaru at his full power yet. As for Rashoumon, I can't remember but didn't Sakon called it his ultimate defense that he learnt from Orochimaru? If so, this doesn't imply it is Orochimaru's ultimate defense, especially as he summoned 3 of them.

40% of infinite power is still infinite....

Now I didn't say that Naruto couldn't be defeated, but I don't see Oro or anyone being capable of stopping Naruto by force. They'll have to find a way to defeat him without attempting to overpower him.... in other words, use their skills and brains.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

He cannot take the risk of losing Manda.

By the way what kind of summon is that gate? Oro could be able to summon three of those (and without using a scroll). Does he have a gate-farm or something of that sort?

Well, Salkon Ultimate Defense was said to belong to Orochimaru And was not made with a Scroll, It seems this gate are not your normal tools we have seen Ten Ten Summoning via scroll, it would be interesting to have a little background regarding this Defenses.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Tettsuo

40% of infinite power is still infinite....

Maybe he does not see that the growth of power with the increasing number of tails is not linear.
A 4 tailed version is much more powerful than a 3-tailed one. It's not like 30% and 40%, more like 4-tails power is for example 5 times as strong as the 3-tails power.
Just think about the the 1-tail -> 3-tail difference, it's so big that with 3-tail he could kick Kabuto's ass in a split-second. Kabuto was like a little bug to him then, while when he had 1-tail i think he was about same power as Kabuto ( which would probably mean that Kabuto wins against him by applying some tricks and smart tactics ).

If we just say that every tail doubles the power than:
1-tails = 2 * Naruto
3-tails = 8 * Naruto
4-tails = 16 * Naruto
9-tails = 512 * Naruto = 32 * 4-tailed Naruto

Now think of a being that can create a black ball of destruction that is 32 times stronger than this was. It would "destroy mountains and cause tidal waves". And the 3-tails -> 4-tails transition seems more than 2 times the power...

[astayanax]

Well, Salkon Ultimate Defense was said to belong to Orochimaru And was not made with a Scroll, It seems this gate are not your normal tools we have seen Ten Ten Summoning via scroll, it would be interesting to have a little background regarding this Defenses.

Yeah, that was what I remember seeing. Sakon explicitly said that it was 'his' ultimate defense that was taught to him by the snake; not Orochimaru's ultimate defense. This goes even further since Sakon can only summon 1 small version of this whereas Orochimaru doesn't seem to have a limit to the number or size of his versions. I am 90% sure Orochimaru ultimate defense jutsu is something different all together.

He cannot take the risk of losing Manda.

Agreed. As a matter of fact, I doubt Manda would want to mess around with that Naruto seeing how it won't benefit him in anyway.

40% of infinite power is still infinite....

Actually, we don't know if Naruto has access to infinite power/chakra yet. We have seen clear defined limits to all of his tails pre 4 now and I suspect we may see a case here. On the other hand, we are seeing Orochimaru having a good time with his fight against Naruto.

[Tettsuo]

I don't think it's a matter of access to the infinite chakra, but more like being able to access a certain amount at one time.

For instance, you can have a tube no bigger than a soda bottle being the point where a body of water the volume of a lake is pouring out through it. The tube will never be able to pour out the entire lake at one time, but the amount of water it has access to is still the same volume.

Naruto is that tube. Regardless of how much power he has access to, he'll never be able to use it all at one time. The tails just allow him to access more chakra at one time.

[Syaoran]

Orochimaru just doesn't dare to summon Manda because he'll be a snake snack.
He has no food for him yet. Remember what he said when fighting Jiraiya and Tsunada

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Syaoran

Orochimaru just doesn't dare to summon Manda because he'll be a snake snack.
He has no food for him yet. Remember what he said when fighting Jiraiya and Tsunada

Heh, I’m pretty sure just for plot sake, Manda and Orochimaru have come into terms….For Orochimaru it should not be that hard to trap 1000 people and give then to MANDA….

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Rurik

Well, Salkon Ultimate Defense was said to belong to Orochimaru And was not made with a Scroll, It seems this gate are not your normal tools we have seen Ten Ten Summoning via scroll, it would be interesting to have a little background regarding this Defenses.

The main reason for thinking about a scroll, is I believe, when you summon multiple things of similar kind you use a scroll (for one you usually do not use a scroll as in Manda - Gamabunta summoning). Also he didn't summon multiple similar things, I need to check, but it seems to me, he summoned multiple same things. When you think of it as a regular summon, it is like summoning 3 mandas.

I believe they are neither a weaponary kind of summon, nor Manda kind of summon. But, still being able to summon 3 of those might seem as a mistaken way to express that Kyuubified Naruto's attack is way strong, and Orochimaru can still be able to defend that. Kishi couldn't make a sacrifice in any of those - he needed to make 4-tailed Naruto very strong but he didn't want Orochimaru to get beaten yet. Well, this is not the first time, so we have to tolerate.