Suisei no Gargantia - Episode 6 Discussion / Poll

[HandofFate]

I don't get the action that happened near the end where Ledo pushed(?) the other girl back or something?

What did he do? Didn't look like it was attacking her, rather it seemed a far distance away when it was spotted.

I'm also confused if it just appeared there swimming above them, or it came out when Ledo opened up the sunken ship.

Don't think its just a squid. Chamber so far has been very accurate in his analysis.
In the beginning when Ledo got sucked into the wormhole, him & Chamber had an enemy wrapped around him right? Makes sense that it would pop up sooner or later if it went into the wormhole with him.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by HandofFate

I don't get the action that happened near the end where Ledo pushed(?) the other girl back or something?

What did he do? Didn't look like it was attacking her, rather it seemed a far distance away when it was spotted.

I'm also confused if it just appeared there swimming above them, or it came out when Ledo opened up the sunken ship.

Don't think its just a squid. Chamber so far has been very accurate in his analysis.
In the beginning when Ledo got sucked into the wormhole, him & Chamber had an enemy wrapped around him right? Makes sense that it would pop up sooner or later if it went into the wormhole with him.

Either pushed her out of the squid's line of attack, or just away from him because he's the biggest threat to the Hideauze, so it's natural he'd get attacked first. That way she won't be caught in it.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

So you don't trust Gen Urobuchi but you feel entitled to be disappointed if your expectations of what you think he's going to do in spite of what he says aren't met?

That's a ridiculous mischaracterization and oversimplification of my position.

My expectations are shaped by the following:

1. Gen Urobuchi's actual resume of work and his reputation.
2. The actual content of the first three episodes of the anime.

It's reasonable for my expectations to be shaped by the above.

The fact that Gen has intentionally attempted to mislead audiences in the past should at the very least mean that what he says about his works before/during their airing should be taken with a big grain of salt.

Originally Posted by Kanon

It was just one time.

So what? He's only done a handful of anime projects in total. One time is enough to take what he says with a big grain of salt.

We shouldn't distrust everything he says just because of that. It's pretty sad to be branded a liar just because you attempted to mislead people once.

Nobody's branding him a liar. Besides, there's nothing necessarily wrong with a writer trying to pull the wool over the eyes of viewers, and skew their expectations in order to later surprise them.

We're already half-way through the series and it's been exactly as Urobuchi said it would be.

There's plenty of anime shows that get much darker in the 2nd half than what they were in the 1st half.

Besides, saying that producers haven't been misleading about a show when a show is only half-finished is truly a case of jumping to conclusions, as you don't know what will happen in the 2nd half of this show.

[apotheosis]

One time is enough to make everyone second-guess what he says. And he knows it.

He can milk it either way. (Some) viewers will be wary of a second occurence the entire series, even if it never happens, which maintains a state of tension despite the material itself.

He'll attract both the viewers who enjoy slice of life & those who want the cast's lives sliced apart It's marketing brilliance, I tell you.

It's a perfect position to troll from, whether he pulls out the bloody axe or leaves it snugly sheathed on his back.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

That's a ridiculous mischaracterization and oversimplification of my position.

My expectations are shaped by the following:

1. Gen Urobuchi's actual resume of work and his reputation.
2. The actual content of the first three episodes of the anime.

It's reasonable for my expectations to be shaped by the above.

The fact that Gen has intentionally attempted to mislead audiences in the past should at the very least mean that what he says about his works before/during their airing should be taken with a big grain of salt.

"Taking with a grain of salt" in my book doesn't mean to disregard someone's words to the point where you consider more probable your own speculations.
Because you know it's entirely possible that Urobuchi didn't lie this time, and his "tricks" would grow stale pretty fast if he kept doing that. Does he really want to do that twice so that everyone won't believe him ever again?

Anyway at the very least you should similarly take "with a grain of salt" your expectations and not be so surprised if they aren't met.

Expectations which, by the way, aren't agreed upon by many people here which never thought those first 3 episodes ever suggested something different from what we are getting. And it's not like we don't know Urobuchi's reputation.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

"Taking with a grain of salt" in my book doesn't mean to disregard someone's words to the point where you consider more probable your own speculations.

I never said I outright disregarded them. But there's ways those words could be made to fit with a more dramatic and less lighthearted show than what we've seen in the last three episodes of Gargantia (i.e. the words may not actually be a lie, but a truth stated cleverly to create false expectations). Given Gen's existing body of work, and what he said before/during the airing of Madoka Magica, there's nothing unreasonable about thinking that there's a decent chance that this is what he would do.

Because you know it's entirely possible that Urobuchi didn't lie this time, and his "tricks" would grow stale pretty fast if he kept doing that.

So according to Kanon, one time alone means nothing, and now according to you, two times means it's already going stale. Frankly, I think you're both being a bit extreme.

Does he really want to do that twice so that everyone won't believe him ever again?

A lot of people didn't believe him the first time. Which could provide motivation for trying to pull it off on a second attempt.

Anyway at the very least you should similarly take "with a grain of salt" your expectations and not be so surprised if they aren't met.

Where have I expressed such extreme surprise? You're greatly exaggerating my words and my position here.

Expectations which, by the way, aren't agreed upon by many people here which never thought those first 3 episodes ever suggested something different from what we are getting.

What counts for "many"?

Here are four different people who share views very similar to mine on the recent content of this anime in comparison to the content that came in the first two or three episodes. And all of those posts are from this one episode thread. So these 4 (which become 5, if you add me) are a fair number given the total number of people that have made posts on this thread.

So I think you've overstated your argument here, and I also think that you aren't being fair to those who disagree with you about the recent direction of this anime show.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I never said I outright disregarded them. But there's ways those words could be made to fit with a more dramatic and less lighthearted show than what we've seen in the last three episodes of Gargantia (i.e. the words may not actually be a lie, but a truth stated cleverly to create false expectations). Given Gen's existing body of work, and what he said before/during the airing of Madoka Magica, there's nothing unreasonable about thinking that there's a decent chance that this is what he would do.

The problem is your implication that somehow this show "created false expectations".
There is no objective proof that such things exist. Your arguments are based on things that I'd rather call self-deceptions, and you only have to blame yourself for that.

One of your point is that "Urobuchi always wrote a certain kind of story, so I expect his next story to be of the same kind."
This is a plain inductive method, which is proven to be often unreliable.

It was then shown that it was stated from the beginning what kind of direction this story would take. The objective fact is that this claim exist, the supposed lie is only a speculation from your part.

You cannot accuse them for creating false expectations if they will do exactly what they said. You can blame them for lying, but you cannot blame them for defying your expectation of them lying.
If you decide to not trust them, that's your choice only, and you can't say that you haven't been warned. You were, you just decided to not give much credit to that warn.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

There's plenty of anime shows that get much darker in the 2nd half than what they were in the 1st half.

Besides, saying that producers haven't been misleading about a show when a show is only half-finished is truly a case of jumping to conclusions, as you don't know what will happen in the 2nd half of this show.

Hold up - they never said it was going to be all rainbows, sunshine, and boobies. Only that this work would have a different feel than your usual Butcher fare. That doesn't mean it won't get darker in the second half (the end of this episode indicates there is some drama incoming), only that the show as a whole will be different from what you'd usually expected from Urobuchi. My understanding is that it will be an uplifting work. I'm not jumping to conclusions, I'm just believing what they're telling me... is that wrong?

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

The problem is your implication that somehow this show "created false expectations".

It certainly seemed to do that, for some of us, as I made clear in my last reply to you on this thread.

If only one person or two people feel that their expectations for a show aren't being met, then maybe "self-deception" is at play. But if 4 or 5 or more people feel that, then maybe the anime and its producers really could have been clearer about what type of show it is, and where it was intending to go.

Your arguments are based on things that I'd rather call self-deceptions, and you only have to blame yourself for that.

Is it a "self-deception" to say that the first three episodes of this anime is loaded with mecha action, plenty of drama, plenty of intrigue, plenty of suspense, and plenty of extensive-world building?

No, that's not a self-deception at all. Rather, it's a fact. The way an anime presents itself in its first three episodes will obviously shape the expectations of many viewers going forward. This is definitely not something that viewers should be faulted for, as you are currently attempting to fault them for.

One of your point is that "Urobuchi always wrote a certain kind of story, so I expect his next story to be of the same kind."

No, that's not my point. My point is that Urobuchi has certain tendencies and strengths as a writer, as displayed by his resume of work. While a writer writing against his/her tendencies isn't unbelievable, readers/viewers shouldn't be faulted for expecting to see those tendencies to at least some degree. But more important are Urobuchi's strengths as a writer, which any fan of his would obviously expect to see in his work, and that's why I pointed to the disappointing lack of depth to Amy's character.

It was then shown that it was stated from the beginning what kind of direction this story would take.

What was stated by Urobuchi is not incompatible with what some of us expect of Gargantia, as I've argued numerous times before.

The objective fact is that this claim exist, the supposed lie is only a speculation from your part.

I never claimed that he is lying. I'm saying that he might be trying to create false expectations. You don't necessarily have to lie to do that.

You cannot accuse them for creating false expectations if they will do exactly what they said.

You really think that viewer expectations should be shaped strictly by what producers say about the show? You don't think that actual episode content, or promotional imagery, or PVs, or the reputations/bodies of work of the members of the production staff, should play any role whatsoever in shaping viewer expectation?

If so, then I completely and strongly disagree with you. And it should be noted that any anime blogger that does season previews would similarly disagree with you, as they all take all of the above into account when it comes to their expectations for an upcoming anime show. Comments by the production staff are only a very small part of what shapes viewer expectations, even when people do believe those comments to be entirely honest and trustworthy.

You can blame them for lying, but you cannot blame them for defying your expectation of them lying.

That's not what I'm blaming them for.

Originally Posted by Kanon

Hold up - they never said it was going to be all rainbows, sunshine, and boobies. Only that this work would have a different feel than your usual Butcher fare. That doesn't mean it won't get darker in the second half (the end of this episode indicates there is some drama incoming), only that the show as a whole will be different from what you'd usually expected from Urobuchi. My understanding is that it will be an uplifting work.

Madoka Magica was an uplifting work to me. At least, it's final episodes were.

Anyway, it's fine if you believe them. I'm just saying that you should at least be open to the possibility that their comments are meant to lull viewers into a false sense of security. Again, that's not even necessarily "lying", per se.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

It certainly seemed to do that, for some of us, as I made clear in my last reply to you on this thread.

If only one person or two people feel that their expectations for a show aren't being met, then maybe "self-deception" is at play. But if 4 or 5 or more people feel that, then maybe the anime and its producers really could have been clearer about what type of show it is, and where it was intending to go.

Unless that is due to the fact that this is a story penned by Urobuchi, which seems the case to me.

What I mean to say is that since the very first episodes I had the feeling that many people were interpreting what they saw through their expectations of what Urobuchi has done in the past, even if in my opinion such interpretations deviate too much from what I consider an objective analysis.

An example is how the initial space battle was seen as a typical "urobutcher" style. While to me it was a standard feature of like 90% of space anime I've seen.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Is it a "self-deception" to say that the first three episodes of this anime is loaded with mecha action, plenty of drama, plenty of intrigue, plenty of suspense, and plenty of extensive-world building?

The problem is whether that is the main focus of the story or the background setting.

The show didn't spend much time before getting to the part where Ledo is taken away from his epic galactic battle scenario and into the peaceful Gargantia. Pair to that the fact that the very title of the show is "Gargantia" and you could pretty well understand that the main focus of this story is the peaceful Gargantia and not the epic galactic war of the Alliance.

Of course I'm not denying that mecha battle against squidly creatures will be a part of this show, but I don't think that that is the point of this show, and therefore it's only natural that a good part of it will be spent on showing the daily life of the titular Gargantia.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

No, that's not my point. My point is that Urobuchi has certain tendencies and strengths as a writer, as displayed by his resume of work. While a writer writing against his/her tendencies isn't unbelievable, readers/viewers shouldn't be faulted for expecting to see those tendencies to at least some degree. But more important are Urobuchi's strengths as a writer, which any fan of his would obviously expect to see in his work, and that's why I pointed to the disappointing lack of depth to Amy's character.

I don't agree with your absolute certainty that Urobuchi can't go against his tendencies or if those tendencies exist to begin with. But I think you really are forgetting that he is not the only writer of this show and I am fairly sure he left the most light-hearted parts to others. Specifically Amy is probably a character that he didn't even touch.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I don't agree with your absolute certainty that Urobuchi can't go against his tendencies...

I never expressed any such "absolute certainty" about Urobuchi's tendencies. There's nothing I wrote that could even be reasonably interpreted as implying that.

This is now three times over the course of just one conversation that you have grossly mischaracterized or exaggerated my position.

At this point, I'm mightily tempted to conclude that you are intentionally engaging in strawman arguments. And strawman arguments represent the heights of intellectual dishonesty.

In any event, since you continually exaggerate my points I don't see much point in continuing this discussion aside from clearing up some misconceptions (either real, or 'convenient').

But I think you really are forgetting that he is not the only writer of this show and I am fairly sure he left the most light-hearted parts to others. Specifically Amy is probably a character that he didn't even touch.

I am not forgetting any such thing. But even with Gen being not the only writer, he's writing the first and last episodes, and is handling "series composition", IIRC. In other words, the overarching plot is his. And to say he didn't even touch Amy is silly given that Amy appears in the first episode which Gen did in fact write.

[Guido]

What could be a better theme that Ledo was taught or learn from about?

In this episode, to Ledo is raised the question what is it that he desires? What are his goals? What to do afterwards once the GA wins the war? Waiting for orders or do something else?

Questions are inherent to our growth and existence as humans. To make choices can be either smooth or difficult depending upon the circumstances of one's own life experiences.

However, we cannot remain behaving like obedient children just for the sake of doing what we are being told without using our curiosity and intellect to see far ahead. One becomes inferior if he or she limits to be perpetual beggar that gets to be fed fish without ever learning how to fish for himself or herself.

To Ledo some slight response is awakening in him, but he's still ways to achieve a proper maturation as a human now living on Earth. Good grief, that he came to Bellows and not Pinion to do volunteering for "Salvage" work.