Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei LN - Archived Discussion

[blackwhite67]

Originally Posted by Ophis

Magic in mahouka works on altering the EIDOS of an information body. And so, for what we know, a soul does not has an information body, and if it has, not even Tatsuya can see it to the point of applying magic to it. If people could use magic direct on the soul, Tatsuya could had saved Sakurai and could revive people as well.

So, unless people can actually 'see' the information body of the soul, they CANNOT use magic on it. one exemple very similar would be Tatsuya's 'Decomposition', he's only able to use it to disintegrate everything cause he can 'see' the structure of everything and directly interfere with the structural information.

I think that 'Cocytus' puts the target in a kind of coma. Their mind dies but not their body and, with time, they would age and die as well.

It just said that their flesh wouldn't die and when it dies, it rots.

Originally Posted by Rasen

Hm. That's a gray area then.

To be detailed, by non-physical existence, I was referring to something as intangible as "life," which even Tatsuya's Regrowth can't affect. In contrast, a concept like the "mind," what is that supposed to be? I can't recall any school of thought that has separated the "mind" from the electrical and chemical functions of the brain. (Depending on the shape of certain parts of the brain, a person might have psychopathic tendencies for instance.)

In the MKnR world, Pushion and eidos are observable particles. Like how we can't see in the infrared spectrum, but the electromagnetic waves/photos still exist, and can be interfered with using physical objects. (A book can block light, for instance)

Edit:
Taking what Ophis said about Information Bodies works too. The magic would rewrite/change the information body related to the structure of the brain and its contents, and the brain and contents change accordingly.

It is important that you realize that pushions and psions in this case are not the typical baryonic matter in real life.

And the third type isn’t something that manipulates physical objects, but the spirits themselves. These types of magic are just referred to as the External Systematic Magic since they don’t belong to any type of system. Some examples of magic in these characters include magic that manipulate spiritual beings, mind reading, spirit separations, and even mind control.

Note here that external magic is the same as outer-systemic magic.

[maxxus0923]

Originally Posted by fujin of shadows

But that is a very good concept...A spell that effects time........Do you guys think that Miyuki's Cocytus is a spell that freezes the sense of time of an individual.........I mean, that is a much more believable and more scientific explanation than freezing the consciousness of a person......

as far as I am concer miyuki cocytus stops the sense and essence of time inside the targets mind thus freezing them forever...

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by blackwhite67

It just said that their flesh wouldn't die and when it dies, it rots.



It is important that you realize that pushions and psions in this case are not the typical baryonic matter in real life.



Note here that external magic is the same as outer-systemic magic.

Rotting and living are two separate things. Rotting is caused by bacteria and can happen while a creature is still alive.

It is important that you realize that pushions and psions in this case are not the typical baryonic matter in real life.

In RL, there are no pushions and psions. But in the MKnR world, they exist and can even generate light like a photon. In other words, we can't really speak to what properties they have or do not have.

[Ophis]

Originally Posted by blackwhite67

It just said that their flesh wouldn't die and when it dies, it rots.



It is important that you realize that pushions and psions in this case are not the typical baryonic matter in real life.



Note here that external magic is the same as outer-systemic magic.

The frozen mind cannot comprehend death. There was no way to even inform the flesh that death was upon them.
The bodies bound by their frozen minds could not even die

Like I said, it looks exactly like a coma state. When people enter in coma their mind 'dies' but not their bodies.

[blackwhite67]

Originally Posted by Ophis

Like I said, it looks exactly like a coma state. When people enter in coma their mind 'dies' but not their bodies.

The bodies bound by their frozen minds could not even die

I think you misread it. In this sentence, the "die" part refers to the "bodies" not the mind and when people enter comas, their bodies will die due to age.

Maybe this will help. "The bodies (bound by their frozen minds) could not even die."

They could only collapse like a row of statues, forever captured in the postures before the frost came.

You can't get a result like that just by messing with the brain.

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by blackwhite67

It also said that their bodies could not die.

Maybe the author meant "could not die on their own." I'm fairly certain if Tatsuya were to use Material Burst on them, they would be quite dead.

You can't get a result like that just by messing with the brain.

And what part of messing with the spiritual "mind" would achieve that effect? Basically, every argument you've made for against being done on the brain also applies to this "mind."

Basically, your argument is that Cocytus has an effect on things other than brains or minds.

[blackwhite67]

Originally Posted by Rasen

Maybe the author meant "could not die on their own." I'm fairly certain if Tatsuya were to use Material Burst on them, they would be quite dead.



And what part of messing with the spiritual "mind" would achieve that effect?

She froze their spiritual bodies, soul, mind. Whatever you want to call it and it had an effect on their physical bodies that you read here. It's not impossible to believe. It's a common assumption that affecting the soul or whatnot will have effects on the physical body and I sure as hell do know that the effect described here defies any sort of scientific explanation.

[Ophis]

Originally Posted by blackwhite67

They could only collapse like a row of statues, forever captured in the postures before the frost came.

You can't get a result like that just by messing with the brain.

The brain is what control our movements, you can paralyze a person just by messing with their brain. Miyuki's magic had frozen their mind to the point

She froze their spiritual bodies, soul, mind. Whatever you want to call it and it had an effect on their physical bodies that you read here. It's not impossible to believe. It's a common assumption that affecting the soul or whatnot will have effects on the physical body and I sure as hell do know that the effect described here defies any sort of scientific explanation.that not a single signal could pass to their bodies and then they ended looking like a statue.

I think that this soul stuff defies even the world of mahouka. I still think that if this was possible Tatsuya could bring people back to life.


Anyway, I think it's pointless to continue with this, we should just wait for the future volumes to come and clarify this to us.

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by blackwhite67

She froze their spiritual bodies, soul, mind. Whatever you want to call it and it had an effect on their physical bodies that you read here. It's not impossible to believe. It's a common assumption that affecting the soul or whatnot will have effects on the physical body and I sure as hell do know that the effect described here defies any sort of scientific explanation.

I'm willing to compromise: instead of "spiritual body, soul, mind," you use the term Information Body. Information Body is something that is confirmed in the MKnR world to exist for pretty much anything, from photons to rocks to people.

For instance, if Tatsuya can overwrite parts of an Information Body, Miyuki instead "locks" the information, preventing changes like a write-protected file.

As for "common assumption that affecting the soul or whatnot will have effects on the physical body," please do elaborate because it makes no sense. Who makes these assumptions that it is possible to directly interface with someone's soul, and that if it were possible to cut off the arm of the soul, the arm of the body would fall off?

It sure doesn't work the other way, because people with severe injuries believe they will ascend to the afterlife whole, whereas if the soul reflects the body and vice versa, they should be just as crippled there as they are here.

So if the body doesn't affect the soul, but the soul affects the body, then if someone loses a leg, their soul should still be whole. In which case "affecting the soul or whatnot will have effects on the physical body," dictates they should regrow that leg.

[blackwhite67]

Originally Posted by Rasen

Rotting and living are two separate things. Rotting is caused by bacteria and can happen while a creature is still alive.



In RL, there are no pushions and psions. But in the MKnR world, they exist and can even generate light like a photon. In other words, we can't really speak to what properties they have or do not have.

Rotting occurs when cells decay and die. As for pushions and psions,

Pushion (Spirit Particles) and Psion (Thought Particles). Both were particles observed in "Para-Psychological Phenomena" — which included magic as well — comprised of non-physical entities that neither corresponded to Fermions, particles that make up the composition of matter, nor were they the same as Bosons, which bring about the interaction between matter. Psion were particle manifestations of intention and thought, while Pushion could be thought of as particle manifestations of the emotions brought about by intention and thought. (A pity that this was still at a hypothetical stage.)

Hmm. Now that I look at this again, pushions and psions seem to be matter that relates to the soul seeing as how they are manifestations of intention, thought, and emotions.

Originally Posted by Ophis

The brain is what control our movements, you can paralyze a person just by messing with their brain. Miyuki's magic had frozen their mind to the point that not a single signal could pass to their bodies and then they ended looking like a statue.

well, I think it's pointless to continue with this, we should just wait for the future volumes to come and clarify this to us.

It is a biological fact that any and every muscle movement requires signaling from the brain. When you raise your hand, your brain has to keep sending signals to you arm to straighten against gravity. For these soldiers to remain stuck in their postures, their brains would have to keep signaling their muscles to remain as they are. Otherwise they would fall back into their relaxed states.

And the third type isn’t something that manipulates physical objects, but the spirits themselves. These types of magic are just referred to as the External Systematic Magic since they don’t belong to any type of system. Some examples of magic in these characters include magic that manipulate spiritual beings, mind reading, spirit separations, and even mind control.

It has been plainly stated here that External-systemic magic, which Cocytus is categorized as, affects the spirit.

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by blackwhite67

Rotting occurs when cells decay and die.

Gangrene and gingivitis are both forms of decomposition, which is rotting. Decomposition occurs because of autolysis (the body consuming itself) and putrefaction (being consumed by bacteria). The reason we're not decomposing while we're alive is because we grow new cells to replace those eaten, and our immune system keeps the bacteria in check.

If for whatever reason our bodies decided to stop producing new cells and/or our immune system failed we'd be rotting while alive. Death will cause both immediately, but some diseases/conditions will cause our immune system to fail, and we start becoming bacteria food.

Hmm. Now that I look at this again, pushions and psions seem to be matter that relates to the soul seeing as how they are manifestations of intention, thought, and emotions.

Pretty sure even the most religious people believe intention, thought, and emotions are chemical and bioelectric functions (MORALITY is a function of the soul, apparently), seeing as how they view electroshock therapy as a way to cure....conditions and preferences. And studies on people with damaged brains also at least back up it's a biological issue, not spiritual.

It has been plainly stated here that External-systemic magic, which Cocytus is categorized as, affects the spirit.

....did you just point to yourself as a source?

[blackwhite67]

Originally Posted by Rasen

Gangrene and gingivitis are both forms of decomposition, which is rotting. Decomposition occurs because of autolysis (the body consuming itself) and putrefaction (being consumed by bacteria). The reason we're not decomposing while we're alive is because we grow new cells to replace those eaten, and our immune system keeps the bacteria in check.

If for whatever reason our body decided to stop producing new cells and/or our immune system failed we'd be rotting while alive. Death will cause both immediately, but some disease will cause our immune system to fail, and we start becoming bacteria food.

In any case, the novel clearly stated that the bodies would not die, which is impossible if Cocytus affected the brain.

Originally Posted by Rasen

Pretty sure even the most religious people believe intention, thought, and emotions are chemical and bioelectric functions (MORALITY is a function of the soul, apparently), seeing as how they view electroshock therapy as a way to cure....conditions and preferences. And studies on people with damaged brains also at least back up it's a biological issue, not some soul.



....did you just point to yourself as a source?

No. That came straight from volume 1.

[Ophis]

Originally Posted by blackwhite67

And the third type isn’t something that manipulates physical objects, but the spirits themselves. These types of magic are just referred to as the External Systematic Magic since they don’t belong to any type of system. Some examples of magic in these characters include magic that manipulate spiritual beings, mind reading, spirit separations, and even mind control..

It has been plainly stated here that External-systemic magic, which Cocytus is categorized as, affects the spirit.

Did you actually read your quote above? It says that External-systemic magic includes mind manipulation as well and not just spirit magic.

It was clearly stated what her magic is: Outer-Systematic·Mental Interference Magic "Cocytus".

If it was a spirit magic, it would be: Outer-Systematic·SPIRIT Interference Magic "Cocytus".

The "Yotsuba" produced as a result inevitably descended from two types of magician lineages. One were those born with a mind manipulation ability that was strengthened. The other were those whose magic calculation areas were warped by a strong power.

Miyuki is a descendant with the power of mind manipulation ability and not a spirit user. Tatsuya is the other one.

Hmm. Now that I look at this again, pushions and psions seem to be matter that relates to the soul seeing as how they are manifestations of intention, thought, and emotions.

You're kidding, right? intention, thought, and emotions are all stored in the brain not the soul. Even though this novel is about magic, it's entirely based on scientific matters.

[blackwhite67]

Originally Posted by Ophis

Did you actuallt read your quote above? It says that External-systemic magic includes mind manipulation as well and not just spirit magic.

It was clearly stated what her magic is: Outer-Systematic·Mental Interference Magic "Cocytus".

If it was a spirit magic, it would be: Outer-Systematic·SPIRIT Interference Magic "Cocytus".



Miyuki is a descendant with the power of mind manipulation ability and not a spirit user. Tatsuya is the other one.

The translation not once used the term spirit-interference magic and it uses outer systemic magic and external systemic magic interchangeably. That's just inconsistency on the translator's part. Besides, the term spirit magic is already used to refer to Ancient Magic, which Mikihiko uses.

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by blackwhite67

The translation not once used the term spirit-interference magic and it uses outer systemic magic and external systemic magic interchangeably. That's just inconsistency on the translator's part.

Well, the difference between outer and external is cosmetic. The point of the outer/external systemic magic would be "magic outside the system."

And while they never use the full phrase "outer systemic spirit magic," I'm pretty sure what Mikihiko uses falls under that category.

[blackwhite67]

Originally Posted by Rasen

Well, the difference between outer and external is cosmetic. The point of the outer/external systemic magic would be "magic outside the system."

And while they never use the full phrase "outer systemic spirit magic," I'm pretty sure what Mikihiko uses falls under that category.

I think the systemic magic and all are categorizations for Modern Magic. Ancient Magic preceded Modern Magic so I don't know if those labels apply.

Also, let's say you're right and that Cocytus and all other mental-interference magic affects the brain and not the spirit or soul. Do you realize the implications of that? That would mean that every time a magician used mental-interference magic they manipulated the brain, or specifically the electrical impulses from cell to cell. To achieve the desired affect, they would have to stop certain signals and stimulate other signals. That is impossible and way too complex for any magician to do and don't forget that to do something like that would require a complete knowledge of the brain. How it works, why it works, which areas are responsible for what, and so on. This knowledge is not present in real life, or for that matter, the MKnR universe. In the end, this, which is the manipulation of electrical signals, is just repetitive, systemic magic.

Outer/External systemic magic is by definition outside systemic type-magic. Remember the quote before.

These types of magic are just referred to as the External Systematic Magic since they don’t belong to any type of system.

So Cocytus and ever other External systemic magic is NOT "Speed, Weight", "Movement, Vibration", "Converge, Dissipate", and "Absorb, Disperse." In other words, they do not have physical effects.

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by blackwhite67

Also, let's say you're right and that Cocytus and all other mental-interference magic affects the brain and not the spirit or soul. Do you realize the implications of that? That would mean that every time a magician used mental-interference magic they manipulated the brain, or specifically the electrical impulses from cell to cell. To achieve the desired affect, they would have to stop certain signals and stimulate other signals. That is impossible and way too complex for any magician to do and don't forget that to do something like that would require a complete knowledge of the brain. How it works, why it works, which areas are responsible for what, and so on. This knowledge is not present in real life, or for that matter, the MKnR universe.

If your argument is that it's too complicated, I have to point out that pretty much ALL the calculations being done by the magicians in this series are too complicated, especially when given the speed at which they do it.

The series' explanation for this is that the calculations are done in the subconscious mind. By that logic, since our brains already know how to send signals to control the body, to encode memories, etc., outer-systemic magic is just doing the same thing, only in someone else's brain. Basically a coordinates difference.

[blackwhite67]

Originally Posted by Rasen

If your argument is that it's too complicated, I have to point out that pretty much ALL the calculations being done by the magicians in this series are too complicated, especially when given the speed at which they do it.

The series' explanation for this is that the calculations are done in the subconscious mind. By that logic, since our brains already know how to send signals to control the body, to encode memories, etc., outer-systemic magic is just doing the same thing, only in someone else's brain. Basically a coordinates difference.

The level of complexity of typical magic shown here is nothing compared to what I just described. The systemic magic demonstrated in the novel are around ten processes or so long. Sometimes more. However, what I described easily constitutes millions of processes. There are millions if not billions of electrical impulses going through our brains every moment.

Besides, you haven't brought up any points against my other arguments.

So Cocytus and ever other External systemic magic is NOT "Speed, Weight", "Movement, Vibration", "Converge, Dissipate", and "Absorb, Disperse." In other words, they do not have physical effects.

Therefore, Cocytus must deal with the spirit.

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by blackwhite67

The level of complexity of typical magic shown here is nothing compared to what I just described. The systemic magic demonstrated in the novel are around ten processes are so long. Sometimes more. However, what I described easily constitutes millions of processes. There are millions if not billions of electrical impulses going through our brains every moment.

Which our brains ALREADY instinctively understand how to do, or else we would all be drooling, leaking messes on the floor. Something like Cocytus is actually simpler than manipulating memories because it's just (stop all input so they stop reacting, keep repeating exact same output so the bodies don't move. As for the death, I've already told you about apoptosis, which is an actual thing.)

What is new to our brains is throwing up barriers, causing mist to form, creating lightning, shifting temperatures, causing objects to vibrate at high speeds.

Besides, you haven't brought up any points against my other arguments.

You have no other arguments. Faith is not an argument, it is a statement that stands alone. It is unassailable from a logical perspective. Affecting the soul affects the body? See my earlier post.

[blackwhite67]

Originally Posted by Rasen

Which our brains already instinctively understand how to do, or else we would all be drooling, leaking messes on the floor.

What is new to our brains is throwing up barriers, causing mist to form, causing objects to vibrate at high speeds.



You have no other arguments. Affecting the soul affects the body? See my earlier post.

But such a long and complicated process is not something any magician can do. Recall volume 7, where Honoka was projecting an image of the sky to prevent detection by the enemy when they were moving by helicopter.

After boarding the helicopter, everyone else save for Miyuki,who already knew about it from earlier, finally became aware of what Honoka was doing.
Honoka was projecting images of the sky using a hemispherical display and was so intensely focused that she could not even spare energy to speak. If this wasn't the sky and was a more dynamically changing scenery, there was definitely no way she could keep up the optical camouflage while moving.

It took all her focus to do that. Manipulating millions of electrical impulses on the fly is something else altogether.

I also pointed out that manipulating the mind through the brain would require a complete knowledge of the brain, which is unknown.

Originally Posted by Rasen

You have no other arguments. Faith is not an argument, it is a statement that stands alone. It is unassailable from a logical perspective. Affecting the soul affects the body? See my earlier post.

Maybe you didn't catch my edit to my previous post about External magic is not being any physical phenomena.