2007-09-03, 07:55 | Link #81 | |||||||||||||
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2) The drones have their own power source. RH basically sucks off a mage. 3) The drones are cheap throwaways. I'm presuming the TSAB to be using the best equipment they can buy. Quote:
This is also, by the way, the anime where a mage fires under Ground Controlled Intercept conditions! Certainly, Hayate's aiming is not one of the things that consistently outperform magitech systems. Spoiler for Rare Reference:
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Actually, forcing a 4 on 4 makes it much more challenging for the aces. As a rule, our aces like individual combat. If they gang up on a target, it is probably because there's only one. There is substantial historical evidence for this. Spoiler for Historical Examples:
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And if she was so superior, why wasn't she helping to sort out the decoys from the real thing in Ep11? Vivio is sleeping quite peacefully on the helicopter, and there isn't a whole lot of equipment on the helo so even if Vivio started going into cardiac arrest or whatever, she won't be able to do much. (I'm not going to say "Why did you not just teleport her back and be done with it..." again) Quote:
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2007-09-03, 08:03 | Link #82 | ||
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Nevertheless, overall good optics are probably more useful because the primary mode of acquisition still seems to be visual. |
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2007-09-03, 09:58 | Link #83 | ||
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Besides, if I understood Zest correctly, what he actually said was that the Over-S mages had started to move. It's also possible that he might have picked them up earlier, but assumed they were pinned in the building like Hayate and not reclassified them as threats until they were clearly airborne and coming after his side. Quote:
(I wonder if that's why the Aces don't seem interested in using Silhouettes? The more magical power you've got, the harder it'd be to produce a good decoy - how do you convince observers that your Silhouette is Rank SS?) The Numbers' lack of magical sensitivity would certainly make sense of their failure to dodge Teana's fire. One wonders if proper training would help there - Subaru and Ginga can certainly both do it. Of course, the Nakajima sisters inherited a capable mage's DNA; who knows what genetic base the others came from? That may be so, but the Numbers' really good optical features seem to take too much time to use for my liking; in a fast-paced battle, they don't appear any better at seeing through smoke or illusions than regular people. Last edited by Guppy; 2007-09-03 at 10:15. |
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2007-09-03, 10:15 | Link #84 | ||||
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T o .(Zest) w e r__________(Ground) You can estimate likely range just by reading the depression angle of the target. Quote:
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To be fair, it is also clear that thermal imaging (or whatever imaging that was) is not particularly effective either against decent illusions. Quote:
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I suspect what Novu in Ep21 was using is a concealed active narrowbeam near-IR interrogator (doubling as a laser rangefinder, or maybe it was the rangefinder all along, being brought to play in a new purpose?) in his eye. He's flashing each Teana in turn - the one that bounces is the real Teana. It works, but it takes time - so often it is about as quick just to shoot and see what cries out. |
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2007-09-03, 10:39 | Link #85 | |||
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Spoiler for ep. 23:
The reason I said that was because, if a mage is capable of detecting another's power signature, then I don't see how a Silhouette could appear to have as much magical power as its caster in the face of a decent scan. (Of course, that scan might well take too long in the midst of combat.) In the end, I think you're right - whether you're a Sentou Kijin or a mage, reconnaissance by fire works just as quickly and well as any other identification method. Quote:
They don't seem really good at it, though - when Teana created a Silhouette to burst out of the smoke of an attack, it fooled Wendi who was on overwatch the whole time. Last edited by Guppy; 2007-09-03 at 10:50. |
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2007-09-03, 10:56 | Link #86 |
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Nope, training won't help. According to the A's booklet (魔法の資質), without a Linker Core, you can't use or even react to magic (I assume they used "react" here meaning something like "sense", since it sure looks like non-mages can still get hit by magic attacks). Linker Cores are also supposed to grow spontaneously, and don't depend on heredity or lineage.
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2007-09-03, 11:08 | Link #87 | |||||
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Only a person with a disbalance between power and skill can possibly have the mix of motivation and ability to use Illusion Magic - and that's Teana. The Illusion will have approximately the correct amount of energy to represent the mage without reinforcement, so it looks fairly convincing on the magical front too. Quote:
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2007-09-03, 18:24 | Link #88 | ||||||||||||||||
This is mah flash sword.
Join Date: Jul 2007
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All arcenciel proves is that a very large magitech system can generate more raw power than a mage. An area-effect weapon-of-last-resort is about the only application in which raw output energy equates directly with performance, and there's obviously a minimum-scale efficiency issue going on for them to only use the technology on kilometer-long warships. I don't know how I can put this more simply- the entire show revolves around mages in superheroic roles who are merely supported by mageless technology. It's the status quo. If a tech with a roomfull of scanner can outperform Shamal with Klarer Wind just because it's larger and more specialized why stop at replacing the support mages? The combat mages should be even easier, they're just weapons. A drone can be a thousand times the size of RH, so of course it'll be more powerful! Dedicated thrusters and inertics, layers of shields, heavy beam weaponry! No toting around those useless squishy organs, no emotional attachment to your enemy's flagship's power source! If the technology is there, why the hell is the TSA employing mages when it could be spending their paychecks on more techs and an automated army? Because the technology isn't there, because that would make for a damn boring show. If you think the Nanoha writers are bad at tactics, think how bad they'd be trying to write the political or social plot you'd be left with once all the fighting is taken care of by robots. Jail wouldn't be around; the tech would have already left him behind. Quote:
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They hadn't undergone much tactical instruction at this point. Fate and Nanoha had the secondary (if not primary) goal of building rapport with their enemies. You kind of lose that moral high ground when you double-team people. Chrono and Yuuno didn't like the way they broke it up into duels in 4 either, but they were running their own show. D-program fight: Well, at least Shamal was coordinating it. That's better than they usually do. Quote:
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And as long as we're arguing about device capabilities, I'm pretty sure Shamal could stop a heart attack with her rings. Healing specialist and all that. Quote:
Signum may like a one-on-one duel but the D-program smackdown showed she's more than willing to join a firing line when it's necessary. Quote:
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2007-09-03, 20:39 | Link #89 | ||||||||||||||||
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Chrono is also a "by-the-book" guy, so he's going to handle the limiters like the regs say - only when necessary, with explicit consent for each case. Hayate is a people person, so she hands down the authorizations. Quote:
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Anyway, your logic can be turned on its head. If mobile mages were superior in this, they won't be building expensive supercomputers and relying on static sensor nets. Quote:
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2007-09-03, 21:50 | Link #90 | ||||||||||||
This is mah flash sword.
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I mean come on. You can't ask me to accept that hiryu issen can counter plasma smasher when Signum's just playing around, but while she's dead serious AND unisoned with Rein it can be blown away by a floor fan. Just typing that made me angry. I'm dropping this subject. |
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2007-09-07, 16:09 | Link #91 | |||||||
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Crap how did I miss this until now?
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Even if the Mage/magitech combo is superior (arguable) the sheer mass that one could unleash with the later could easily counter that advantage IMO. Quote:
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Letting mages just snap their fingers and teleport around at will would be even worse as no battle would ever be really tense as the second it looked like they might lose they could just teleport away. Quote:
Also no offense but the design of allot of the drones sucked. If the Type-2 for instance had been built for pure speed and long range BVR combat they could have done ALLOT more damage. Mages in flight are not that fast (>always mach 1 IMO) aircraft could easily out fly and out climb them (they wind wiping their clothes indicates they probably simply breath oxygen from the air which would limit them to 10 to 15,000 feet tops). Instead for some bizarre reason all the drones weapons seem to be limited short range within visual systems that forces them to get close to enemy mages. Quote:
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Plus modern medicine is getting creepy and hurtling rapidly toward the realm of science “fiction”.Give it 30 years and we might all re-growing arms after popping a few pills, there is no reason beside pointless squeamishness a society as advanced as the TSAB in many areas couldn’t have medical tech WAY more effective then anything magic has ever shown. |
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2007-09-07, 18:54 | Link #92 | |
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Now that episode 20 is subbed, I was taking another look at RF6's and Jail's deployments.
RF6 has encountered eleven of the combat cyborgs so far. Five of them were spotted in the abandoned city. They're attacking the Ground Force HQ but are only moving as fast as Ginga can skate. If the combat cyborgs have been named consecutively (which may not necessarily be true) then six of them are unaccounted for. RF6 has also spotted Zest and Agito heading towards the Ground Force HQ but is unaware that Lutecia is also moving through the abandoned city. I'm still not convinced that sending the forwards to the abandoned city was the best idea. With their relatively slow movement rate, the numbers moving through the abandoned city are probably the last enemy force that needs to be dealt with. With the way Fate split off there, it appeared as though Jail's lab is somewhere in between where the Aces deployed and the Cradle. I kind of threw together the start of an operations order for episode 20-21 to see what it would look like. Quote:
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2007-09-07, 20:09 | Link #93 |
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Using an order format meant for battalions for that squad sized combat force is your first mistake. By the way, it is clearly sunny, the visibility is at least fair, and it is daytime, and I think the battle will be over either way before dusk.
By the way, wouldn't "Battalion Troops" be Hayate rather than Signum? |
2007-09-07, 20:59 | Link #94 | |||
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I got a really bad headache when I was rewriting it so it turned out rather sketchy.
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2007-09-07, 22:21 | Link #95 | |||||
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And for the real kicker- they can't be built without relics! There's a lostech artifact, about as black a box as you can find- and you do have to find them- right at the center of the whole system! Yep, there are going to be armies of these things running around any day now. And they still can't compare to the best mages. Hell, only four of them can even handle real aerial combat. And this despite the fact that they're artisan-craft products whose creation is attended to personally by Scaglietti, once-in-a-generation engineering genius and general benefactor of the "one mad scientist moves faster than an entire generation of normal scientists" trope. Quote:
Which is what my whole argument comes down to. That the TSA bothers to field mages when magitech is obviously very viable and has some definite advantages over the mages suggests there are performance benefits on the part of the mages as well. And because the advantages of the mageless systems are endurance and ease-of-use, I think it likely the mages get the power end of the spectrum. I'll admit there are other possible advantages (including the possibility of subtle distinctions we viewers just don't get enough technical info to grasp), but the harder-to-use, short-term effect being the stronger feels right. And while the TSA obviously does have a fair degree of organizational opposition to some types of technology which it avoids, they have no problems with the magitech already in general use and there's no reason to believe it wouldn't use it to replace mages if it were feasible to do so. Which is what this argument is about. Or was about, anyway. Quote:
But for the sake of clarity, yes, I had taken Nanoha's debilitation to be more a product of her chronic magic overuse than the actual drone attack, which upon review of 9 appears to be totally incorrect. Though I'm curious if it might have also been an issue based on that 'could no longer fly' line. I could see it cutting down her maneuverability and forcing her to abandon the ankle-wings, but not grounding her altogether... Quote:
Makes sense, right? After the revolution they threw everything behind a single technological route that has pretty broad application, but not broad enough that they don't miss out on some stuff. And seriously, scifi gets boring if it's too hard. If you've seen one AI-run nanotech-infused conversion-powered Kurzweilian fantasyland you've seen them all. I don't see why they can't remove from the setting something that might be feasible in reality the same way they add things that are completely fantastic (magic, the TSA in general). I think you're placing too much importance on accurate prognostication of technological development and not enough on an author's perogative to write in the setting they want. StrikerS technological tree may be too lopsided for you to easily accept, and that's fine, but recognize that any futuristic setting's will be lopsided to some degree or another. A lot of stuff we're excited about today might never pan out. Last edited by Frankenstein's Clare; 2007-09-07 at 22:45. Reason: Snarkiness went past good fun and into possible flame bait. Apologies. |
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2007-09-08, 02:25 | Link #96 | |||||||
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And yeah IMO a drone could do it and probably cheaper, faster, and likely better the TSAB is just too stupid and set in its ways to do so. They could absolutely learn something from how Jail operates, like magic not being the best solution to everything. If nothing else I’d hope this entire incident gets their asses to at least consider alterative methods to “MORE MAGIC!!!” Quote:
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Which is why no one in the Air Force has any problems with UAVs and in fact welcomes them with open arms and fights to be assigned to them… oh wait. Basiclly the issue is this the TSAB is full of mages, if they replaces mages with Magitech the former are out of work and now WAY less important and prestigious… do the math. Would you recommend your company buy a bunch of robots that could put you out of a job for instance? Quote:
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So really It's not like this stuff isn't already around it's just totally unevenly or not all used to anything like it's logical potential. |
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2007-09-08, 04:56 | Link #97 | |
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To be fair to TSAB medicine, however, for someone who had a fracture, he sure healed fast. It wasn't instant but he was back practicing with Signum well within a week. Considering it usually takes a few days just for the bones to begin (weeks to remineralized and over a year to be back at near full strength) getting back together, it is probable that magic did work and he's just in the sling to give a bit more time to his arm to heal in peace. I suspect Nanoha's injuries are actually not local. If it was just a spinal cut, it will affect her ability to walk but not to fly (besides, people seem to use a separate magical-powered nervous system to move while transformed - see Hayate moving around quite well as soon as she transformed). Considering what everyone said about magic, it seems likely that she had a "core accident" at around the same time of the shanking which did most of the hard to repair damage - say she detected a presence, decided to engage, but the core started to fail, the stealth droid shanks her, so she forces to core to charge and fire, and the core thus got wrecked. Or maybe she was concentrating on magic when she got shanked, and the shock was the last straw to a worn out Core. Anyway, from all the evidence, I'm betting the net damage isn't all physical. |
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2007-09-08, 13:05 | Link #98 | ||
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Me if I have two arguments one of which is simple. -She got stabbed and the damage from that mean she couldn't walk or fly and magic couldn't fix it. And the other which makes a bunch of assumptions like... -She got stabbed but it what REALLY happened was it started some bizarre chain reaction that somehow magnified the damage and resulted in a secondary injury that rendered the major trauma almost moot. I'll tend to take the first. |
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2007-09-08, 13:13 | Link #99 | ||||
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Nobody knows. However, it seems they could heal sprains quite well (see Ep1), so I'd guess it was something a step up.
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2) That's where the Alternate Control Circuit came in. Hayate was moving around real well the moment she powered up in Nanoha A's. |
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2007-09-08, 13:51 | Link #100 | |||||
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As for the second but that was a very complex situation, more so since the thing that “powered her up” was basiclly what was destroying her body to begin with. I’m not sure we can draw much information about normal magic/body interactions from this incident as it’s just seems so wildly outside the norm. |
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