Macross Frontier Character Discussion - Alto Saotome

[Swampstorm]

Originally Posted by stray

No, I meant Sheryl not understanding her own feelings.

I think that she does, actually. In episode seven, for example, she says "I don't know if we'll be able to meet again in this vast galaxy," and is startled to find herself in tears at those words. But soon after, she shows that she recognizes the root cause of those feelings, as her hand reaches out to her missing earring and she dedicates her last song to Alto. It isn't quite love at that point, but she still is able to recognize how much she cares.

Likewise, I'd say that the kiss in episode ten was essentially an unspoken question between the two. I think that she's all too concious that she's in love with him by that point, since she's scared enough not to make the issue any clearer.

Originally Posted by stray

Having the hots for someone is one thing; changing your lives so you can be together is another. Can go back to SDFM and see how well that worked for Minmay when she decided to stop singing and asked Hikaru to stop flying...

That's actually one very strong plus point for Sheryl's relationship with Alto. In episode six, Sheryl recognizes from the outset that it's Alto's job to pilot, and it's her job to sing. She doesn't restrict Alto in doing what he needs to do. She gives him the strength and the freedom to choose his own path.

This might have been more of a problem, say, if Sheryl had some sort of trauma that made it difficult for her to accept a loved one's need to pilot into battle. But she doesn't appear to have any issues like that lurking in the background.

Originally Posted by stray

Alto just doesn't seem to believe in Sheryl much at all, and given his family situations, I can kind of see why he might not.

Actually, there are a number of occasions where he's actually been in awe of her. He's often inspired by her strength; he just happens to be unaware that she's also inspired by him.

[stray]

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

I think that she does, actually. In episode seven, for example, she says "I don't know if we'll be able to meet again in this vast galaxy," and is startled to find herself in tears at those words. But soon after, she shows that she recognizes the root cause of those feelings, as her hand reaches out to her missing earring and she dedicates her last song to Alto. It isn't quite love at that point, but she still is able to recognize how much she cares.

That goes back to what I was saying about it being a 'fling'. Regardless of what she realized she was feeling at that point, it wasn't going to change her mind about going back to Galaxy.

Likewise, I'd say that the kiss in episode ten was essentially an unspoken question between the two. I think that she's well aware that she's in love with him by that point, since she's scared enough not to make the issue any clearer.

Mmmm... too much personal experience to touch this one objectively. I don't disagree, but...

That's actually one very strong plus point for Sheryl's relationship with Alto. In episode six, Sheryl recognizes from the outset that it's Alto's job to pilot, and it's her job to sing. She doesn't restrict Alto in doing what he needs to do. She gives him the strength and the freedom to choose his own path.

Again, still just a fling at that point...

This might have been more of a problem, say, if she had some sort of trauma that made it difficult for her to accept a loved one's need to pilot into battle. But she doesn't appear to have any issues like that lurking in the background.

Actually, there are a number of occasions where he's actually been in awe of her. He's inspired by her strength on a number of occasions; he just happens to be unaware that she's also inspired by him.

...or unwilling to accept it... It's a slippery slope...

[ani_d]

Originally Posted by stray

if Galaxy were to show up... would she even bother to stick around?

SherylxGalaxy ftw

Originally Posted by Teletha

BUT she should have! Come on. Why did he get a free pass? Different strokes for different folks I guess, but that's why I can't even begin to like Ranka x Alto. She does let him get away with treating her like crap as long as he's nice enough the next day. What kind of relationship is that even? She's so dependent on him any attention he gives her she's grateful for. She should be better then that

This just proves that the problem here isn't with Ranka herself but some people's opinion. No matter how she acts, her heart is in the right place. The story portrays her devotion to Alto as a good thing, we all can see it, and that's all about that matters whether people agree with it or not. I do see why you're having problems with Ranka for not getting mad at Alto when he ditched her. I would get mad too, but the fact is, Ranka didn't and by doing that, the storywriters just made her more likable.

Originally Posted by Teletha

Ranka accepts Alto, but barely knows anything about him and doesn't ever attempt to know anything about him.

Not totally right. Ranka asked why Alto joined SMS in episode 4. She DOES attempt to know something about him. Anyway, I was convinced that people will stop faulting Ranka for not doing anything for Alto after what she did for him in episode 12. I guess not.

Originally Posted by Teletha

Sheryl doesn't know much, but she knows more and she hasn't even admitted to herself, let alone anyone else, that she even likes Alto. She tires to know more. When Ranka doesn't know something, she gets upset she didn't know. Not really because she wants to know, but because she's the only one who didn't know.

From what I can see, the only thing Sheryl knows about Alto moreso than Ranka (at this point) is that he hates Frontier cuz it doesn't have a sky. And this is actually something that was given to us in episode 1. It's common knowledge. He even told Luca the same thing lol Ranka now knows he was a Kabuki princess. Ranka knows Alto loves to fly. The rest about Alto's family can be googled by anyone and the personal stuffs (besides his dad trouble), he hasn't even revealed. How does this make Sheryl more deserving of Alto than Ranka when Ranka flat out laid her life on the line for Alto?

Originally Posted by Teletha

re: the lovely codependent relationship. Being with Ranka because it makes Alto feel like a manly man just is about the worse basis for a couple ever. That is masking his problem and not dealing with the real issues he might have. He shouldn't have to be with someone to make up for something he lacks.

In fairness, I do acknowledge your opinion even if I don't see anything wrong with wanting someone to depend on you. It's not like Alto deliberately needs Ranka to depend on him or else he'll die. His desire to support her is friendly and harmless. Codependence is more of an extreme term to use on their relationship--you do know that term is only for disturbed people and such. Alto and Ranka's connection is far far from it.

The story has been portraying Ranka and Alto's relationship as a good thing, thus I don't have any problems with it. Also, we are only in episode 14. I have a feeling that naive advice Alto told Ranka about not facing her past will be dealt with near the end. The two will eventually learn to face their pasts or the story will run out of fuel.

Originally Posted by Teletha

You get in a relationship with someone who brings out the good in you, who compliments you, but not who you have to depend on so much without them you'd be incomplete

Between Ranka and Sheryl, Alto responds the best when he's with Ranka. I think I've written enough essays and posts in this forum just to point how much good Ranka brings out from Alto and vice versa.

[BleachOD]

Originally Posted by Teletha
Being with Ranka because it makes Alto feel like a manly man just is about the worse basis for a couple ever.

(I never said that...just so you know)

So not true. Alto has been emasculated... Ranka desires support. Alto desires to give it her... It's give and take.
It's when he clearly doesn't want to be bothered that I have a problem with (Which is the case with Sheryl<--save it for romance)
But I wasn't talking about shipping...

Why is ship wars disguised as Psychobabble?
Why don't you guys just create a thread for it...

Now I am not finished...Let analyze Ranka from my perspective...

The I will do a VS...In the shipping thread. And show you ALTO'S BLATANT JEALOUSY WHEN IT COMES TO RANKA...and why...My ship has a better chance than yours...


I said I am going to play my position... That means:
I like to tell you what I think first. Then you can go at me...

I was hoping you guys would be entertaining...but the ship thing...Will own everything thats been said<--you don't like that about me...but it's true.


since I am not trying to delve too much into that and "Stay on topic" but we all know that these character analysis are covert ship war threads...(It's all I seen in here)


fyi...

YOU NEED TO WATCH IT AGAIN!

[Swampstorm]

That amounts to the same thing. I'm still not sure why you'd want to promote their relationship as a codependent one.

Incidently, whenever you mention emasculation or castration in a psychological sense, you're bound to draw references to Freud.

[TwilightHack]

Originally Posted by BleachOD

Now I am not finished...Let analyze Ranka from my perspective...

The I will do a VS...In the shipping thread. And show you ALTO'S BLATANT JEALOUSY WHEN IT COMES TO RANKA...and why...My ship has a better chance than yours...

I'm curious about your analyzing. I don't doubt you when you say you've a good judge of character... but at the moment you're doing a very bad job at interpreting and analyzing Macross F.

For starters, how in the work is Alto blatantly jealous of ANYONE? Where in the world are you drawing that off of?

[magnuskn]

OD, although I found merit in your analysis of Alto, I also want to point out that the only person constantly referring to Alto as a princess who runs away from his problems happens to be Michael. The moment in episode 8 where Sheryl asks who the "Princess" is, and everybody points to Alto is a rare exception of this.

Now, Michael is also Altos best friend and sometimes friendly rival, as far as I can see, because elsewise Alto wouldn't tolerate his behaviour at all. Luca, Nanase and everyone else never refer to Alto as a princess, for Luca he is actually a Sempai.

Therefore I fear that after some revision that aspect of your post falls a bit flat.

I still can see how Alto is looking for reassurance of his manlyness in Ranka, but as this aspect of their relationship is a Bad Thing (tm), IMO, that´s not exactly reassuring for your ship.

[Westlo]

Originally Posted by BleachOD

He is not going to be easily impressed by looks or fame.

His statement about Sheryl in episode one, alone confirms that this could be more than just an assumption. (As well as a couple of others...He makes.)

He asks “What makes her the Galactic Fairy?” He can’t see it. You know why? Because of the reasons stated…

This is just being selective because this entire point of yours ignores what happens later in the episode and in episode 5.

Episode 1



Doesn't Alto say something like she's amazing around this point? I cbf looking for my episode 1 to find out what he says but he's obviously impressed at this point. Here's the manga version.



Episode 5



Oh Oh looks like Ms Fairy made an impression on him! Obviously not to the point of most people but she still made an impression.

Originally Posted by crisis

I'm not sure if you realize it, but this whole passage just saved me the time and effort of showing why I have such a big problem with Alto x Ranka.

Pretty much how I felt reading that passage, a lot of her points throughout actually convince me more than Ranka and Alto are based on the wrong things and that Sheryl is right for him.

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

This might have been more of a problem, say, if Sheryl had some sort of trauma that made it difficult for her to accept a loved one's need to pilot into battle. But she doesn't appear to have any issues like that lurking in the background.

Yes this is lurking in the background...

Originally Posted by ani_d

SherylxGalaxy ftw

I suggest you take off your shipping glasses and look at the actual show itself and realize that Galaxy (or what's left of it) is being set up to be the final opponents. In other words no chance in hell of a Galaxy ending, Sheryl has a higher chance of sacrificing herself in Valkyrie to protect Alto's life.

[Wesley84]

Originally Posted by Westlo

Doesn't Alto say something like she's amazing around this point?

Only in the non-canon TV airing.

[mike_s_6]

Originally Posted by Westlo

Oh Oh looks like Ms Fairy made an impression on him! Obviously not to the point of most people but she still made an impression.

I know this is an attempt at a parody but it fails

[mike_s_6]

Originally Posted by Wesley84

Only in the non-canon TV airing.

Of course they didn't make her fall in the deculture edition, they have already exceeded their time limit.

[Westlo]

Originally Posted by Wesley84

Only in the non-canon TV airing.

In 11 days time it's officially canon in the 32 minute dvd version of episode 1, like it or not.

[Wesley84]

Originally Posted by Westlo

In 11 days time it's officially canon in the 32 minute dvd version of episode 1, like it or not.

It's their mistake to make.

[Teletha]

Originally Posted by BleachOD

(I never said that...just so you know)

So not true. Alto has been emasculated... Ranka desires support. Alto desires to give it her... It's give and take.
It's when he clearly doesn't want to be bothered that I have a problem with (Which is the case with Sheryl<--save it for romance)
But I wasn't talking about shipping...

Why is ship wars disguised as Psychobabble?
Why don't you guys just create a thread for it...

Now I am not finished...Let analyze Ranka from my perspective...

The I will do a VS...In the shipping thread. And show you ALTO'S BLATANT JEALOUSY WHEN IT COMES TO RANKA...and why...My ship has a better chance than yours...

That's exactly what you meant. Ranka makes him feel like a man who does manly things and GAR screaming, not like a princess he is deep inside. Well, he needs to get unemasculated. What happens if Ranka dies and he can't fix his emasculated self with helping her neediness? Or what if she actually realizes her potential and doesn't need him to help her all the time? What is the basis other then that? Does he find some other moepanda to feel manly? Or what about if Sheryl needs him more then Ranka? That's possible soon considering the shit that is going to go down. I think your Alto sounds like he needs a heavy dose of therapy, not a relationship.

I actually like Alto x Sheryl more, but it's not really a your ship versus my ship for me. It's a Sheryl is clearly superior and would make a clearly superior partner for Alto and if he doesn't see that it's his loss. Ranka would be fine for him as a cute romance, but not one I would enjoy. If he picks Ranka it just reminds me again why he's not my favorite in Frontier. But I guess we can keep that in romance.

@ ani_d I will try to answer later. I'm a bit busy and it's long.

[squaresphere]

With Brersa joining the fleet I think we'll see an ugly side to Alto. Even if he's an "ally", he's tried to kill Alto several times, almost killed Klan, and prevented Alto from saving Ranka.

A rival is one thing, but if they address this with Alto's, "whatever I don't care" attitude it'll be a serious lose for character development.

[Wesley84]

Originally Posted by squaresphere

With Brersa joining the fleet I think we'll see an ugly side to Alto. Even if he's an "ally", he's tried to kill Alto several times, almost killed Klan, and prevented Alto from saving Ranka.

A rival is one thing, but if they address this with Alto's, "whatever I don't care" attitude it'll be a serious lose for character development.

This is Frontier. No one has an ugly side.

[Westlo]

Bobby doesn't allow ugly sides.

[squaresphere]

Originally Posted by Wesley84

This is Frontier. No one has an ugly side.

I dunno, Pres Glass is a pretty ugly person (on the inside)

[zalem]

Originally Posted by ani_d

SherylxGalaxy ftw

I must oppose a SherylxGalaxy end considering I believe that Galaxy are the ultimate bad guys of this series. Galaxy is most likely the HQ for Grace faction and I don't believe for a second that it was destroyed....they are EVIL. Evil I tell you.

edit: Forgive me I missed this initially:

Originally Posted by BleachOD

After playfully tapping Ranka on the head; he then says “Why are you still so hesitant?” He’s actually encouraging her to become dependent on him.
Alto has been all but physically castrated…By protecting her, supporting Ranka, by being her rock; He can feel self-worth. He can feel like a “Real Man”.

If this is true it actually makes the AltoXRanka relationship seem even more repulsive to me. I have enough issues with the pairing as it is, so let us hope they have a more healthy relationship if they do pair up. Though I do agree with your 80% chance of Ranka winning. Actually, it's probably higher. But maybe I'm just being pessimistic...

Alas, I've seen those scenes yet again and I still don't see the blatant jealousy from Alto.

[daimonth]

I thought of something amusing while posting yesterday in the Sheryl thread and didn't feel up to to organize my thought...Anyways here it is...

I call it Altos great evasive maneuvers:

Ep 6- Situation: When Ranka ask if Alto was at Zentraedi mall alone. Result: Evaded when Alto lied and said that he was indeed alone.

Ep10-Situation: Meeting Ranka on the set with Sheryl. Result: Shot down by Sheryl after trying to hide himself in the background.

Ep11- Situation: Told his father has fallen il and that there is a chance of settle things if he shows up on his birthday. Result: Evaded- Ran to Galia 4 without a word.

Ep11- Situation: Invitation from Ranka to spend time on his birthday. Result: Evaded- Ran to Galia 4, got Mikhail as a substitute without having to decline Ranka himself.

Not to say that he always run away, because from time to time he does tackle things head on. However there is a pattern of evading the issue when faced with awkward situation such as declining Ranka or facing his father.