[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[izmosmolnar]

Spoiler for rant rant:

Bloody hell, I'm so disappointed with ep4 so far. Gonna collect my thoughts about it later when I once ran through everything translated.

[Goose Boy]

Spoiler for When someone solves the epitaph:

Magically, the heir is turned into the new Beatrice and does the killings to gain more power and resurrect properly, in other words, its optative. So until someone finds the gold and her/his witch side says " Im a witch now and I dont need more power", the killings will continue. Its like a Hate Chain.

[theacefrehley]

Originally Posted by izmosmolnar

Spoiler for rant rant:

Bloody hell, I'm so disappointed with ep4 so far. Gonna collect my thoughts about it later when I once ran through everything translated.

You didn't even see the first night...

[izmosmolnar]

Well, without trying to flame anyone (ergo I really don't want anyone to take it personally):

Spoiler for up to ep4 chapter 9:

My frustration level during Maria's and Ange's background reached unhealthy level multiple times.
I've found the amount of Mindf*ck / "WTF" moments / freaky scenes / Potential theory causing events not sufficient enough (and hell these are the reasons I like Umineko in the first place). That's the main reason I'd actually rate ep4 so far even more uninteresting than the slowpaced introduction .
I personally believe it could have been better to skip few parts here and there (hell that was the first time in Umineko, I actually skipped unread content)
In my honest opinion there are too many new characters. And most probably many of them with no major role in the end game, example: sakutarou, Okonogi. Well I can count the latter as an Easter egg character, but still.
Speaking of new characters: How on earth can they kidnap Ange? She is 18 isn't she? I'm not entirely sure when people of Japan counts as an adult, but I believe, based on all the VNs I played so far, she doesn't need a guardian anymore if she is 18. So on what grounds Kyries sis thinks she is entitled to forcefully take Ange against her wishes?

I realize the pace is likely going to be a lot faster in the remaining part, and the plot is definitely going to be interesting, but I believe they could have mixed these scenes (and even skip a few) with later ones somehow to be a bit more interesting and motivating (it might be just my taste)

[theacefrehley]

I think in Japan you're an adult when you're 20... (well, at least that's the age you are 'allowed' to drink alcohol )

[Jan-Poo]

Spoiler for ep4 up to chapter9:

The age of majority in Japan is reached at 20 years, so technically Ange still needs a guardian, or to put it in another way she's still not free to do anything she wants, she can't even take control of her vast wealth yet and that's why Okonogi is in charge.
If you take for true what happens in the anime then you can see 15 years old guys and girls living alone as if that was completely normal. I'm not sure if that's an anime thing or if that's really acceptable in Japan, but it think the former is true. Anyway Umineko itself seems to confirm this theory since: Battler doesn't want to live with his father, however after his grandparents died he is forced to go back to his father's house. And Battler is 18.

[izmosmolnar]

Spoiler for japanese guardians and stuff:

Well even if that's true, surely a Teenager should/could have some influence who he/she wants to be his/her Guardian.
I mean if she thinks someone is abusing her (I'm talking material abusement now, since obviously they are only taking care of her for her inheritance, and not because of sheer goodwill), Ange should be somehow entitled to initiate a legal change regarding her Guardian. I don't think Japan in the 90's was so cruel and ignorant to ignore an insanely rich 17-18 year old's plea regarding that (I know her other family is powerful too).
And I even believe she is crafty enough to make money from her inheritance somehow, if she could surely she could even try and the bribe people in the right positions to do something about it (I can't even guess how resistant the japanese against corruption).

Well that's just theories and stuff, but I can't believe the only thing she can do is be oblivious about it and suffer.

[Jan-Poo]

Spoiler for episode4 patch:

Well sure. Kasumi intentions are quite scary. However Ange can't do anything as long as she isn't victim of abuse, and when that happens it might be too late. Unless you have reached the age of majority if your guardian says you must stay at home, you stay at home, you don't have the right to complain, and you don't have the right to roam freely in the world. This is true in any country as far as i know.
Ange wants to unveil the misteries of Rokkenjima, she can't afford to start a legal battle against her Aunt. She might do that in the future, but she doesn't seem concerned about that.
You also need to take in account the powers and connections the Sumadera have with the political system. There is a chance they can cover everything up. Also you need to take in account Ryukishi's personal opinion of the japanese social welfare system. See Higurashi...
See Umineko itself... i mean it's insane that Rosa retained her parental rights on Maria.

[izmosmolnar]

Spoiler for up to ep4 ch9, quantumtimelines, some more wellfare:

I reckon even if she waits 2 more years she can still go back to the very same metaworld where she is now. I believe it hardly makes any difference she goes there from the world of 2000 or from the world of 1998 (other than the "the older you are less you can use magic" stuff discussed in whichever episode).

Not to mention keeping it in mind how the timeline itself in the metaworld is seriously messed up (or I'm bloody stupid at failing to understand it). Remember the scene where the stake Greed (sorry forgot demon name) is able to predict that she is gonna be employed by Ange later, but she is now Beato's furniture.
How does she know what's going to happen and who her later owners going to be? Or that means that Ange actually timetravelled to 1986's metaworld or something? Even if I presume that Greed is going to kill someone in ep4 and stay there as an Evidence again, I can't be sure she is going to get into the possesion of ep4's Ange and go trough the very same events, which will lead us back to here. Doesn't that implies that Greed is able to follow all the events of other Kakera's? Or maybe regardless whatever happens she is going to be summoned by Ange in every world. (I'm not even close to a beginner in grasping the knowledge of quantumdimension theories, but my brain seriously hurts whenever I try to understand the logic behind that scene).
EDIT: One more thing, if we conclude that we followed ep3's happenings which led us to the Background of episode 4's Ange, than how did she summoned the 2 dead stake nee-chans who died in the scene by her parents? They weren't used as a catalysator to summon the siesta sisters, and ultimately died because of that? (Ah my brain!!!)

The only semi-logical explanation I can come up on the question "why does she wants to travel earlier to the Metaworld" is that she doesn't want to be "older" than her brother, but that's not really a clever reason itself (or maybe Frederika can only send her now I don't know, but then again where was she in the last 12 year?). At the present time it seems like to me that the world of 1998 doesn't hold too much relevance on the actual main plot, but then it makes even less sense to implement all them new characters.

And no I don't even want to remember that scene with Rosa-Maria-Wellfare Officer woman. That was the most ridiculous scene in the whole story, my blood was boiling in frustration how none of them acted anything.
Well fair enough, it's indeed a very good example to show us, that there is not much justice in Umineko's children's policy/teenager wellfare. If I take into account that, it indeed seems unlikely, how Ange could possibly lobby out some more advantageous position regarding her own Guardian.

[Kitsu]

Spoiler for Episode 4 patch:

Doesn't start that stake thing..just explain it to yourself with magic it's easier xD Also they weren't used as catalysator wasn't it said of amazin Eva-Beato is because she didn't need any?
Also I think Ange somewhere is similar to Battler...she needs to do something now! She can't wait any longer. It's just that kind of personality.


Yep, Ryukishi doesn't has a good opinion of the japanese welfare system. But I can understand that, okay for me it's more the german one that bugs me. The german system appears to be good but lately there are more and more cases about abuse and neglecting of children in whcih our welfare system didn't do anything.
And I know about a case where after 5-6 month a child didn't go to school (first grader) and no one knew where she was. It was shocking for me and then after 5-6 month teaching that child again...it really didn't get any education and seemed rather odd to me. It' sad that the welfare system often doesn't work at all

[izmosmolnar]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

Spoiler for Episode 4 patch:

Also they weren't used as catalysator wasn't it said of amazin Eva-Beato is because she didn't need any?

Spoiler for patched ep4:

I remember she also said they are the 5 sisters now and not 7. Judging by Lucifer's reaction it seemed irreversibly true.
edit: In case we believe they were really delusions/imaginary friends during ange's school in ep4, than Greed shouldn't have mentioned it in the metaworld either (ignoring timelines and such now). However the siesta sisters appeared in the metaworld before too. (I give up to try understanding it with logic now)

[Kitsu]

Spoiler:

Well, seemingly explain it with magic..
Also how can Meta-Beato still have magical powers after what Episode 3 and make up the whole golden Land illusion? I think those are things about which we shouldn't think about much

[Jan-Poo]

Spoiler for timeline continuity:

First thing: i think that almost everything that happens in ep3 is just a charade. Leviathan and Belphegor didn't really die, and even if they did, Beatrice can summon them again, she is the endless witch after all. It might be possible that she couldn't resummon them in that game, but once the "rinse and repeat" anything that had previously happened get erased and only the memories of metaplayers remain.

Second: The metaworld timeline works differently from the realworld timeline. Gretel entered in the scene between the third game and the fourth game. It doesn't matter if in the real world she comes from a place that is 12 years further in the future. the Metaworld is beyond time, however the metaworld has its own timeline.
The world of the Ange we know materialized at the time the third game concluded. It had to pass 12 years in this world for Ange to become what we know now, but this "kakera" materialized in a single instant in the metaworld. As soon as this future became possible, Bern took the chance to get that "possible" Ange and brought her in the metaworld. You can well understand from the discussion between LD and Ange that this Ange's exstence is not stable and should Battler win she would vanish in nothingness. This Ange and her world affect the magic world, in a way that now stakes remember her. Magic is something that is created by someone's delusion. The viewpoint of Ange is causing an alteration on the stakes "reality", stakes are what the user believes they are. We see that this is causing problems on the stakes. Mammon at a certain point is suffering from a paradox in her existence and she had to stop interacting with Ange.

[Kitsu]

Spoiler for Episode 4 and meta:

Like i said...explain it with magic. The endless witch means she ca almost do anything, a god-like power.
And the stakes doesn't really exist so you could just ignore the paradox in them. The stakes we see in the Ange-Maria realm are her escape from reality. So it doesn't matter if they are logical or not. They are an illusion. And that also the case with the whole Meta-realm I think it only represents the search for the culprit. So the girl who believes that the stakes are her friends so the illusion of those "friends" manifests itself in the Meta-realm. But we could call it Beatrice's "Illusion" is something totally different if both "Illusions" are in the same place (like a room...or better how far a mind goes in that moment and Beatrice was busy with showing Battler a the game and totally caught up in that) they rival each other. Because Beatrice is more likely the "master" of this realm and the actual endless witch her "Illusions" replaces the one of Ange.

Spoiler for Another theory which bugs for a long time now and is really whacky:

What if the Meta-World is only a existence in the struggling Battlers head. After we see the end of Episode 1 (withou Teaparty) we don't know what happened. Maybe after seeing the culprit Battler passed out out of exhaustion and shock and then is caged inside a dream reality.
I kinda think that this whole realm is a non existent in itself and is Battlers only resort. He wants to know who the culprit is but can't accept a human as culprit because he doesn't want his friends and family doing those horrible murders. We hear Battler in the first game talking about how he wants to call his Grandfather Goldsmith...and now? We have an creepy looking Kinzo calling himself Goldsmith. Then there is of course the Goathheads. Also after miserably failing at fighting the culprit in the first game. Kanon always gets a dramatic fights in which someone could get his hopes up that he survives. Also after getting told that Jessica likes Kanon...whoa! We get two totally cheesy Kanon&Jessica moments. "A story about a foolishly servant boy etc. ...blabla...who fell in love with a Lady as radiant as the sun....etc." Seriously who thought that one up?! Rosa finally realizing what a bad mother she was. Also the first time we see Meta-world is a scene in which Kanon, Shannon, George, Jessica, Maria and himself peacefully drinking tea. That's also the reason why Bernkastel and Lamda look like Rika and Takano, he knows them from the original visual novel. (he said himself that he read that one) That's why things like kakera starting to come up . More and more of his wishes start come up.
What if all those murders doesn't exists? Ryukishi said it's impossible to figure out who the culprit was. But didn't he said before that every mystery novel and with that every crime is solvable? So if there is no crime so there is no answer no solution.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

Spoiler for Episode 4 and meta:

Like i said...explain it with magic. The endless witch means she ca almost do anything, a god-like power.
And the stakes doesn't really exist so you could just ignore the paradox in them. The stakes we see in the Ange-Maria realm are her escape from reality. So it doesn't matter if they are logical or not. They are an illusion. And that also the case with the whole Meta-realm I think it only represents the search for the culprit. So the girl who believes that the stakes are her friends so the illusion of those "friends" manifests itself in the Meta-realm. But we could call it Beatrice's "Illusion" is something totally different if both "Illusions" are in the same place (like a room...or better how far a mind goes in that moment and Beatrice was busy with showing Battler a the game and totally caught up in that) they rival each other. Because Beatrice is more likely the "master" of this realm and the actual endless witch her "Illusions" replaces the one of Ange.

Spoiler for Another theory which bugs for a long time now and is really whacky:

What if the Meta-World is only a existence in the struggling Battlers head. After we see the end of Episode 1 (withou Teaparty) we don't know what happened. Maybe after seeing the culprit Battler passed out out of exhaustion and shock and then is caged inside a dream reality.
I kinda think that this whole realm is a non existent in itself and is Battlers only resort. He wants to know who the culprit is but can't accept a human as culprit because he doesn't want his friends and family doing those horrible murders. We hear Battler in the first game talking about how he wants to call his Grandfather Goldsmith...and now? We have an creepy looking Kinzo calling himself Goldsmith. Then there is of course the Goathheads. Also after miserably failing at fighting the culprit in the first game. Kanon always gets a dramatic fights in which someone could get his hopes up that he survives. Also after getting told that Jessica likes Kanon...whoa! We get two totally cheesy Kanon&Jessica moments. "A story about a foolishly servant boy etc. ...blabla...who fell in love with a Lady as radiant as the sun....etc." Seriously who thought that one up?! Rosa finally realizing what a bad mother she was. Also the first time we see Meta-world is a scene in which Kanon, Shannon, George, Jessica, Maria and himself peacefully drinking tea. That's also the reason why Bernkastel and Lamda look like Rika and Takano, he knows them from the original visual novel. (he said himself that he read that one) That's why things like kakera starting to come up . More and more of his wishes start come up.
What if all those murders doesn't exists? Ryukishi said it's impossible to figure out who the culprit was. But didn't he said before that every mystery novel and with that every crime is solvable? So if there is no crime so there is no answer no solution.

Spoiler for General:

This is a possibility that i also considered. Ryukishi already gave a definition of what a perfect crime is, and of course a perfect crime is a crime where no one really dies (one could nitpick that in that case it wouldn't be a crime at all, whatever). But if that's true then the red truths are false and that would be very lame.

[Kitsu]

Spoiler:

With non existent crime I meant only the first game. The games the come after that are only products of Battler's totally screwed mind. So of course the red truths are also a illusion which might be truth in the murders which Battler thought up

[Jan-Poo]

It doesn't change the fact that you need to think that the red truths refer to something completely imaginary, and therefore they are not true. Any kind of explanation that is based on the "it's true according to a certain perspective" (Obi wan Kenobi mindf*ck lamest excuse ever) is lame and i hope Ryukishi won't resort to that.
He is basically already showing us that anything that we see might be a lie, if even the red truths are lies, then i might as well stop thinking about this story and i certainly wouldn't bother with his next stories

[Kitsu]

Yeah it's lame but it would explain a few things for now.
And this theory is just something I came up with. I don't think it's even close to the truth. I just wanted to hear what you guys thing about it.

By the way what happened to the letters of Beatrice, the ones she gave Maria for example, where did they go? I think it wasn't mentioned that they were found, also it would be like I said interesting to know if the handwriting is the same?

[Jan-Poo]

that's what bothers me more about ep4. It looks like everything has been covered up by the police itself. It's impossible that there is so little information disclosed.

[Kitsu]

Yes, that's what I also thought. I also think it's strange that Ange was able to get a hold of one of the stakes. Maybe she just believes that she has one (it's an delusion of her). Still....
But what out the other stuff she got like the diary of Maria....wouldn't the police show a bit of interest in that. It would have said a lot abut the relationships inside the family.
I mean it was a mass murder which isn't solved yet any information would be important and let a girl steal this information is a little bit strange.