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Old 2015-03-26, 17:06   Link #4761
cyberdemon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EternalSpringFlower View Post
I still think the Hinata love story looks totally random. She was never a big part of the team. Her brother was more important. So how do you go and make the protagonist fall for a secondary character is just... odd, storytelling-wise.

I'm not a shipper so I don't care either way, I'm more interested in this from the creative and pop culture related point of view. The influence of editors, success, fandom, this sort of thing.
any love story in Naruto is random. Its because it is an action manga with very little focus on romance and even Kishi said he wasn't good at writing romance. Sakura was never truly an option because she never fell in love with Naruto and always pursued Sasuke. Naruto himself also stopped viewing her in any romantic light by the end of the part 1.

With Hinata, she had much fewer interactions with Naruto when compared to Sakura but the quality of those interactions was high. They always helped Naruto find his strength in difficult times and caused him to look at Hinata differently. Sakura had the quantity of the interactions but the quality was rather low so she couldn't keep up with any romantic development compared to Hinata.
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Old 2015-03-26, 20:48   Link #4762
EternalSpringFlower
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Originally Posted by Avalon64 View Post
Obviously you have some feeling on the subject since you are posting about it, if you thought it was weird and "bad storytelling" in your opinion that's fine but trying to make it sound like you don't care and yet you are commenting about it sounds a tad hypocritical
I just read some interesting thoughts on how fandom influences the outcome of shipping wars and of course Naruto is the prime example of super heated wars, that's what prompted me to post. When I say I don't care I mean I'm not personally invested in the shipping wars. (Actually the most interesting love story for me personally was about Sakura's feelings for Sasuke.)

Nope, not bad storytelling, just odd. Obviously Sakura was destined to end up with either Naruto or Sasuke, and since it's not romance, the focus is not on the romantic relationships, but Naruto is the protagonist who spent a lot of time wanting to be with Sakura. So in the classic storytelling tradition he would have either gotten together with her--or lost her to Sasuke.

Instead he sort of shrugs it off and marries a secondary character who he never was shown to actively pursue. Hinata loved him all along, sure, but in the grand structure of the story, her desires are not relevant, because she isn't the main character.

It's like with Naruto's main goal of becoming Hokage. He could have reached it or he could have failed to reach it--but he couldn't just say, whatever, I'm going to open a coffee shop. Even if he liked coffee all along.

Which begs a question as to why.
For example, as one theory states: that's what the creator wanted to do all along, but he had to ship tease the audience with the love triangle because love triangle is what sells.
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Old 2015-03-26, 21:22   Link #4763
Avalon64
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Originally Posted by EternalSpringFlower View Post
I just read some interesting thoughts on how fandom influences the outcome of shipping wars and of course Naruto is the prime example of super heated wars, that's what prompted me to post. When I say I don't care I mean I'm not personally invested in the shipping wars. (Actually the most interesting love story for me personally was about Sakura's feelings for Sasuke.)

Nope, not bad storytelling, just odd. Obviously Sakura was destined to end up with either Naruto or Sasuke, and since it's not romance, the focus is not on the romantic relationships, but Naruto is the protagonist who spent a lot of time wanting to be with Sakura. So in the classic storytelling tradition he would have either gotten together with her--or lost her to Sasuke.

Instead he sort of shrugs it off and marries a secondary character who he never was shown to actively pursue. Hinata loved him all along, sure, but in the grand structure of the story, her desires are not relevant, because she isn't the main character.

It's like with Naruto's main goal of becoming Hokage. He could have reached it or he could have failed to reach it--but he couldn't just say, whatever, I'm going to open a coffee shop. Even if he liked coffee all along.

Which begs a question as to why.
For example, as one theory states: that's what the creator wanted to do all along, but he had to ship tease the audience with the love triangle because love triangle is what sells.
Like I said I pegged you for a casual reader if that is how you interpreted events, in the end whoever is secondary or main character is irrelevant with who ends up with who, there is no written rule stating the main character HAS to pair up with the main heroine, and even though she was "secondary" Hinata actions shown there was GREAT deal of love behind them which is why when you say she didn't "actively pursue" I find that a little silly considering all her interactions were to get Naruto to acknowledge her and to eventually love her which is why her story came full circle, Naruto doesn't NEED to drop down on his knees and swear he loves Hianta everytime they talked, as long as he displayed he liked her even a tiny bit, love can blossom later

Again just because she wasn't the focal heroine does not make her desires and wants any less important to the author or the readers, there ARE at times you can have more developed secondary characters then the main character, and I am sorry to say the archtype of the hero NEEDING to be with the next important female and the "secondary" character can't have the main hero because she's not important enough is a VASTLY obsolete method of thinking, characters will pair up how the author wants them to, so keep in mind while you call NaruHina odd there are TONS of fans who will disagree with you because of how natural it is to them, you consider Hinata not important to the grand structure of the story due to her role there are again many who will disagree with you, because you see Hianta due to her screen time but I see Hianta and the thigns she DID with her screentime, she inspired Naruto, she helped pick him back up when he was down, she saved him when he could have died...how can you call her not important when she displayed GREAT importance?

Also theory of love triangle selling is not true because Kishimoto already came out in interviews stating that Hinata was planned to be with Naruto for a very long time, Sakura was never going to be with Naruto and there was NEVER a love triangle that was something shippers themselves created...ANY hints of NaruSaku were intentional red herrings because Kishimoto likes to fool around with his readers, considering these are his words from interviews its KINDA hard to dispute them considering he himself SAID them
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Old 2015-03-26, 21:26   Link #4764
DJ1107
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To change topics for a minute with the upcoming Sakura hiden I decided to take back 1 of 2 of my original flaws regarding The Last since now I'm probably getting it in that novel.
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Old 2015-03-26, 22:20   Link #4765
kampfer91
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Originally Posted by EternalSpringFlower View Post
I just read some interesting thoughts on how fandom influences the outcome of shipping wars and of course Naruto is the prime example of super heated wars, that's what prompted me to post. When I say I don't care I mean I'm not personally invested in the shipping wars. (Actually the most interesting love story for me personally was about Sakura's feelings for Sasuke.)

Nope, not bad storytelling, just odd. Obviously Sakura was destined to end up with either Naruto or Sasuke, and since it's not romance, the focus is not on the romantic relationships, but Naruto is the protagonist who spent a lot of time wanting to be with Sakura. So in the classic storytelling tradition he would have either gotten together with her--or lost her to Sasuke.

Instead he sort of shrugs it off and marries a secondary character who he never was shown to actively pursue. Hinata loved him all along, sure, but in the grand structure of the story, her desires are not relevant, because she isn't the main character.

It's like with Naruto's main goal of becoming Hokage. He could have reached it or he could have failed to reach it--but he couldn't just say, whatever, I'm going to open a coffee shop. Even if he liked coffee all along.

Which begs a question as to why.
For example, as one theory states: that's what the creator wanted to do all along, but he had to ship tease the audience with the love triangle because love triangle is what sells.
Originally , Kishimoto only wanted Naruto and Hinata , but his editor butted in and told him to make a pink hair tsundere plus a love triangle because they were popular at that time .

Thus he was forced to write what we called Naruto today , with Hinata role reduced in place of Sakura , but doesn't mean he completely abandon his idea .

Some Japanese told me that while Naruto may has a crush ,not love , crush for Sakura because we all have those silly moment when we suddenly interest in someone of opposite gender , Sakura didn't love him back for 15 years , only see him as comrade , an important member of her team , so there was no development between these 2 , even more , does Naruto knows what is love to begin with ? He doesn't have parent , he is an orphan to begin with , everyone fear him when he was a child , all he want is to be acknowledge , so no wonder he tried to snatch a fan girl from the most popular guy in the class , Sasuke .

Back to Hinata , her role may has been reduced , but she made a huge impact in every Naruto important moment ( out of her love of course ) .
1-Fighting against Neji , the most strongest Gennin in his class , everyone pretty much bet on Neji , Naruto felt nervous for the 1st time , yet Hinata was the reason why he restored his fighting spirit and won .
2-Fighting Pain , screw Orochimaru , Pain is one the best villain out there and no one came to help Naruto while he is being pinned down and soon will be killed , so who arrive to the scene , confess her love and pretty much turn the whole situation around ?
3-Obito mockery , Obito knows what will make Naruto gives up all his fighting spirit , to break him apart , Everyone , even Sakura just stand there in shock , when Naruto seemingly surrenders to Obito words , only Hinata drags him back from depth of despair .

So you see , Hinata made a huge impact on Naruto life when no one came to save him , all out of her love which is something a dumbass hot headed hyper active Naruto won't understand till The Last .

I ain't a NH fan to begin with , but i support Hinata as i can clearly see the logical reason for Naruto ends up with Hinata .

@DJ : what flaw ?
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Old 2015-03-26, 22:29   Link #4766
EternalSpringFlower
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Originally Posted by Avalon64 View Post
which is why when you say she didn't "actively pursue" I find that a little silly considering all her interactions were to get Naruto to acknowledge her and to eventually love her which is why her story came full circle, Naruto doesn't NEED to drop down on his knees and swear he loves Hianta everytime they talked, as long as he displayed he liked her even a tiny bit, love can blossom later
Yes I guess I'm a member of the casual part of the audience.
But I was talking about Naruto. Naruto never actively pursues Hinata. There are different hints but hints are a common part of ship teasing all over. He likes her, he has warm feelings towards her, sure--but Naruto is a go-getter. That's the core of his personality. He is a super active, passionate, driven person. He wanted Sakura. He wanted Sasuke (in a different sense). He wanted to become Hokage. Yet we the audience are never shown that he wanted Hinata with the same intensity and sense of purpose. If he did, it would have elevated her status as a character.
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Originally Posted by Avalon64 View Post
how can you call her not important when she displayed GREAT importance?
Because she only has an important relationship with Naruto, for example, out of the main trio. A central character has important and story defining relationships with all other central characters. Naruto, Sasuke and Sakura all have incredibly important relationships with each other.
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Also theory of love triangle selling is not true because Kishimoto already came out in interviews stating that Hinata was planned to be with Naruto for a very long time, Sakura was never going to be with Naruto and there was NEVER a love triangle that was something shippers themselves created...ANY hints of NaruSaku were intentional red herrings because Kishimoto likes to fool around with his readers, considering these are his words from interviews its KINDA hard to dispute them considering he himself SAID them
That's very interesting, because it's a pretty dangerous path to take. Did he ever mention what his other plans for Hinata were? Did everything go as planned or was she initially meant to play a bigger part in the plot?
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Originally Posted by cyberdemon View Post
any love story in Naruto is random. Its because it is an action manga with very little focus on romance and even Kishi said he wasn't good at writing romance. Sakura was never truly an option because she never fell in love with Naruto and always pursued Sasuke.
There was so little romance--all mostly hints--it could have gone either way. Even with Sakura ending up with some third guy. Now that would have been entertaining to watch from the fandom side.
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Old 2015-03-26, 22:39   Link #4767
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Originally Posted by EternalSpringFlower View Post
Yes I guess I'm a member of the casual part of the audience.
But I was talking about Naruto. Naruto never actively pursues Hinata. There are different hints but hints are a common part of ship teasing all over. He likes her, he has warm feelings towards her, sure--but Naruto is a go-getter. That's the core of his personality. He is a super active, passionate, driven person. He wanted Sakura. He wanted Sasuke (in a different sense). He wanted to become Hokage. Yet we the audience are never shown that he wanted Hinata with the same intensity and sense of purpose. If he did, it would have elevated her status as a character.
Just because Naruto wants Sakura so much doesn't mean he'll eventually win her over. He was tried to get with Sakura for so many years. At some point he realized it was a lost cause and, started to see the other girls around him. Particularly Hinata who has always supported him. I'm ok with Naruto ending up Hinata because it shows that relationships are a two way street. Sometimes you can't make someone like you no matter how hard you try or how charismatic you are.
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Old 2015-03-26, 22:41   Link #4768
kampfer91
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But I was talking about Naruto. Naruto never actively pursues Hinata. There are different hints but hints are a common part of ship teasing all over. He likes her, he has warm feelings towards her, sure--but Naruto is a go-getter. That's the core of his personality. He is a super active, passionate, driven person. He wanted Sakura. He wanted Sasuke (in a different sense). He wanted to become Hokage. Yet we the audience are never shown that he wanted Hinata with the same intensity and sense of purpose. If he did, it would have elevated her status as a character.
Are you expecting someone who is extremely shy to walk in front of Naruto and casually tell him that she love him
What is better ? You love someone but that person will never love you or a person love everything about you but you don't know about it

Quote:
Because she only has an important relationship with Naruto, for example, out of the main trio. A central character has important and story defining relationships with all other central characters. Naruto, Sasuke and Sakura all have incredibly important relationships with each other.
Nar/Sak/Sas has important bond.....as comrade / team member .
Why Hinata has to care about the other 2 who are strangers to her when she has Naruto and her family as her top priority ?

Quote:
That's very interesting, because it's a pretty dangerous path to take. Did he ever mentioned what his other plans for Hinata were? Did everything go as planned or was she initially meant to play a bigger part in the plot?
Mangaka has no power over his editor and the publisher , you do what they want or your works will go to trash bin , that is very harsh . Which is why Hinata role was reduced but in the end his idea still prevail
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Old 2015-03-26, 22:57   Link #4769
DJ1107
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@DJ : what flaw ?
My other flaw with The Last was lack of Sasuke. I've seen some folks upset that despite new designs the rest of the Konoha 11 get little to nothing in the movie. I generally don't mind that despite my love for those characters because it's a 2 hour movie so trying to give everyone screentime would be a clusterfuck & in the grand scheme of things the likes of Ino, Choji, Kiba, Shino, Tenten, & (depressingly) Rock Lee don't really matter, But Sasuke's lack of screentime bugs me since he was heavily promoted along with the main cast of the film (On the poster, design without poncho, perfume etc), Yet his biggest part in the movie was finding Hiashi & destroying a meteor. We couldn't have him find his way to the Moon to help Naruto fight off a few elite mooks before vanishing? Hell I'm a fan of tokusatsu so I'm use to a character popping up out of nowhere, kicking ass, then disappearing. Even barring that I as someone who really likes Sakura I feel kinda bummed that there's no interaction between her & Sasuke. Yes at the end of the day this is Naruto & Hinata's romance movie but after everything Sakura's been through in the film (I.E. Doing everything she can to make sure the 2 dorks get together in the end), it feels kinda unrewarding that she doesn't have any interaction with her love (We got ShikaTema &SaiIno moments in the film for god sake). It didn't have to be big, I would've been fine with a Welcome back & hug mid-credits.

With my knowledge of Sakura's novel next month or so & what it's about I'm taking that criticism back as of now since I'll now have what I wanted from The Last.
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Old 2015-03-26, 23:04   Link #4770
kampfer91
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My other flaw with The Last was lack of Sasuke. I've seen some folks upset that despite new designs the rest of the Konoha 11 get little to nothing in the movie. I generally don't mind that despite my love for those characters because it's a 2 hour movie so trying to give everyone screentime would be a clusterfuck & in the grand scheme of things the likes of Ino, Choji, Kiba, Shino, Tenten, & (depressingly) Rock Lee don't really matter, But Sasuke's lack of screentime bugs me since he was heavily promoted along with the main cast of the film (On the poster, design without poncho, perfume etc), Yet his biggest part in the movie was finding Hiashi & destroying a meteor. We couldn't have him find his way to the Moon to help Naruto fight off a few elite mooks before vanishing? Hell I'm a fan of tokusatsu so I'm use to a character popping up out of nowhere, kicking ass, then disappearing. Even barring that I as someone who really likes Sakura I feel kinda bummed that there's no interaction between her & Sasuke. Yes at the end of the day this is Naruto & Hinata's romance movie but after everything Sakura's been through in the film (I.E. Doing everything she can to make sure the 2 dorks get together in the end), it feels kinda unrewarding that she doesn't have any interaction with her love (We got ShikaTema &SaiIno moments in the film for god sake). It didn't have to be big, I would've been fine with a Welcome back & hug mid-credits.

With my knowledge of Sakura's novel next month or so & what it's about I'm taking that criticism back as of now since I'll now have what I wanted from The Last.
Yeah , i hope that he will show up to help Sakura in the novel .

May be Sasuke is suspected to be the culprit that causing trouble around Konoha , Sakura has a hard time believe it till Sasuke appears with the real culprit .
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Old 2015-03-26, 23:28   Link #4771
Avalon64
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Yes I guess I'm a member of the casual part of the audience.
But I was talking about Naruto. Naruto never actively pursues Hinata. There are different hints but hints are a common part of ship teasing all over. He likes her, he has warm feelings towards her, sure--but Naruto is a go-getter. That's the core of his personality. He is a super active, passionate, driven person. He wanted Sakura. He wanted Sasuke (in a different sense). He wanted to become Hokage. Yet we the audience are never shown that he wanted Hinata with the same intensity and sense of purpose. If he did, it would have elevated her status as a character.
Again as it was stated this is not a story about romance, and Naruto is kinda an idiot, his failure to notice Hinata at first was not that he wasn't interested in her it was he didn't know she liked him that way, his growing up alone and hated made it hard to see or recognize love, hell in the Last movie Sakura accurately states Naruto can't distinguish between romance and the love he has for Ramen, this was something he had to grow up and recognize in order to fully understand...

and just because it SEEMED like he liked Sakura (the Last movie would also defunk these feelings were never real) this was really within part 1, after that it sorta went away...while he would develop some connection to Hinata, the fact you are a casual fan indicates to me you probably don't have knowledge of the entire series, because there WERE moments Naruto has displayed interest in Hinata, seeing her in pain when Neiji almost killed her enraged him to the point of wanting to avenge her, when he was feeling down before he fought Neiji, she boosted his spirits and he told her he did like girls like her, before the Pein incident where she confessed her feelings and seeing her almost die enraged him enough to go 8 Tails against Pein, after Neiji dies and Naruto is about to give up, Hinata is the one to tell him to not give up and he thanks her for always being at his side while he holds her hand...who cares if they were moments that didn't "seem" like it was his core personality to pursue Hinata, these moments were important because Naruto never acted this way to anyone else and they were subtle...subtlty is VERY important when telling a story, Naruto doesn't HAVE to be in your face all the time

Quote:
Because she only has an important relationship with Naruto, for example, out of the main trio. A central character has important and story defining relationships with all other central characters. Naruto, Sasuke and Sakura all have incredibly important relationships with each other.
This is a really flawed point, she's not important because she only interacts with Naruto? Yeah see the name of the title? Naruto! Her interactions with Naruto are good enough...if you go by THAT logic then Gaara isn't important, or Shikamaru, or Tsunade since they don't interact with ALL three of the "central" characters

In case you haven't realized Sasuke due to his defection in the end didn't interact with that many other good characters other then Naruto, Sakura and Kakashi...by your logic he should be considered a "minor character" since he had so few interactions

You may tell yourself the story would have been fine without Hinata but it really couldn't have progressed without her, because without her during several KEY parts in the story Naruto would have lost or DIED without her to help him back up, that is how you can tell how important a cahracter is to the story what she means to the MAIN character who cares if she had little interaction with Sakura (she would have a few in hte Last movie) and Sasuke (who I need to remind DIDN"T have that many interactions to begin with anyway)

Quote:
That's very interesting, because it's a pretty dangerous path to take. Did he ever mention what his other plans for Hinata were? Did everything go as planned or was she initially meant to play a bigger part in the plot?

There was so little romance--all mostly hints--it could have gone either way. Even with Sakura ending up with some third guy. Now that would have been entertaining to watch from the fandom side.
Hinata was originally supposed to be the main heroine since her character and design WAS created first, she was supposed to a shy waitress at the ramen restaurant but then decided he would change her role to a classmate, however editorial mandates forced him to create Sasuke and then Sakura first before he could finalize Hinata's role in the story

During part 1, Kishimoto admitted on several accounts, he had to spend the longest time redesigning Sakura because he was a bit disappointed how relatively unpopular she was amoung fans (what I mean was she wasn't hated more like she should have been MORE popular given she was supposed to be the central heroine), so much so he didn't address Sakura's parents due to lack of interest (something that wouldn't be shown till the Road to Ninja movie)

Hinata on the other hand just got more and more popular amoung the readers, combined with the fact he said himself Hinata is one of his personal favourite characters when asked does he have any characters he likes in interviews, it even got to the point Pierot studios that animates the anime loved her character as well, so it was sometime when he was wrapping up Part 1, he made the decision Hinata would get Naruto this was set in stone, but he has been known to troll his readers so he put in a few tiny hints that Naruto still might like Sakura but they were going to amount to nothing thus there is no love triangle because a love triangle implies Sakura had a legitimate chance to be with Naruto but she did not since that was never the plan

so no it WASN'T going to go "either way" because Sakura NEVER shown she liked Naruto THAT way and it was never Kishimoto's plan to have Sakura be anywhere near Naruto in the end
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Old 2015-03-27, 13:40   Link #4772
Alena_92
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Yes I guess I'm a member of the casual part of the audience.
But I was talking about Naruto. Naruto never actively pursues Hinata
probably since you admit that you are a casual reader you wouldn't understand the whole Naruto story at all..
yes true he never pursue Hinata because there are a lot of things that requires his priority and attention..We have akatsuki..crazy powerful characters that captures jinchuriki..Naruto being a jinchuriki needs to train..then we have obitO and madara who wants to put everyone in the dream world and of course we have Sasuke his friend whom Naruto wants to save from darkness..
u have to understand that part 1 naruto pursuing Sakura was because of his rivalry to Sasuke..since Sasuke is the most popular and genius from the class Naruto strives hard to compete and be acknowledged by everyone..and besides they are 12 or 13 that time..What do u expect ? it was nothing serious or mature feeling..and please note as well that Naruto stopped pursuing Sakura because when Sasuke left the village Naruto don't want to compete to be greater than him anymore..what he wants is to save his friend whom he consider as a brother already.. and since ur a casual reader you wouldn't understand nor probably did not paid attention to growth and development of characters in Naruto..u did not notice how the character of Hinata develop as the chapters pass..u did not notice how Naruto is parallel to Hinata..how their background story resembles to each other..u did not notice that because again u are a casual reader..I understand you why u said the Naruhina pair is random because u are a casual reader..
Naruto falling in love with Hinata is more solid than any pairing since Hinata was the only person who loved Naruto in the same amount and level like Naruto’s parents..
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Old 2015-03-29, 19:05   Link #4773
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Old 2015-03-29, 21:30   Link #4774
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Old 2015-03-30, 15:59   Link #4775
kampfer91
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Judging from their clothes , i think both Sarada and Boruto is currently Gennin , may be they will be ready for Chuunin exam soon .

I wonder what color is Sarada cloth , i think it is deep blue just like Sasuke .
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Old 2015-03-30, 17:15   Link #4776
Kazu-kun
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I still think the Hinata love story looks totally random. She was never a big part of the team. Her brother was more important. So how do you go and make the protagonist fall for a secondary character is just... odd, storytelling-wise.
It's not odd, it's just uncommon. There's no rule that say the protagonist has to end up with any particular girl unless romance is the focus of the story. The fact that many male protagonists end up together with the main girls is just a trope, and as such, it can be subverted.

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I'm more interested in this from the creative and pop culture related point of view. The influence of editors, success, fandom, this sort of thing.
The influence of the editor was to make Naruto end up with Sakura, but Kishimoto chose to go with Hinata because that was his original idea at the beginning of the story.
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Old 2015-04-05, 04:53   Link #4777
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mind blown!

Awesome to see Bolt and Salad as a team.
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Old 2015-04-05, 08:03   Link #4778
kampfer91
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mind blown!

Awesome to see Bolt and Salad as a team.
Dude , it been like that for 2 generations of Team 7 .

A hot blood - a cold , tactical one - the one who is there to break the tension between the 1st two
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Old 2015-04-08, 00:35   Link #4779
miroku2192
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Finally got to watch the movie in theaters...

must say, some of the one liners were a little...lol worthy, even when they were trying to be serious.

In any case, still really enjoyed the movie!
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Old 2015-04-08, 01:10   Link #4780
cyberdemon
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Originally Posted by miroku2192 View Post
Finally got to watch the movie in theaters...

must say, some of the one liners were a little...lol worthy, even when they were trying to be serious.

In any case, still really enjoyed the movie!
still no showings anywhere near me
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