Military, Authority & Decisions In MSLN series

[dahak]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

one is an HE round that can take out a tank, and the other is a HEAT round that can take out a tank.

Erm to a major degree HEAT rounds are a subset of HE rounds. Same as HESH, though one could argue depending on how formal verses literal one is that HESH might be a subset of HEAT.

HE = High Explosive. When used to distinguish from subtypes a general spherical blast round.
HEAT = High Explosive Anti Tank. I.e. a High Explosive round specialized for killing tanks. Usually used to designate Munroe/Neumann effect shaped charge plasma jet ammo as opposed to
HESH = High Explosive Squash Head. Which is a type of HE round designed to deform on impact with armour to avoid the advantages of sloped armour.
or
EFP = Explosively Formed Penetrators

All are types of HE round and I see nothing to indicate which the Marriage meant. Especially considering the existence of HE Dual Purpose rounds.

A CPC round from a BL 18 Mark 1 would kill any modern and many SF tanks but I'd hesitate to use it as the example, except to point out that it also is an HE round that can kill a Tank.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by dahak

Erm to a major degree HEAT rounds are a subset of HE rounds. Same as HESH, though one could argue depending on how formal verses literal one is that HESH might be a subset of HEAT.

HE = High Explosive. When used to distinguish from subtypes a general spherical blast round.
HEAT = High Explosive Anti Tank. I.e. a High Explosive round specialized for killing tanks. Usually used to designate Munroe/Neumann effect shaped charge plasma jet ammo as opposed to
HESH = High Explosive Squash Head. Which is a type of HE round designed to deform on impact with armour to avoid the advantages of sloped armour.
or
EFP = Explosively Formed Penetrators

All are types of HE round and I see nothing to indicate which the Marriage meant. Especially considering the existence of HE Dual Purpose rounds.

A CPC round from a BL 18 Mark 1 would kill any modern and many SF tanks but I'd hesitate to use it as the example, except to point out that it also is an HE round that can kill a Tank.

All we know is that it was a HE round that the mariage stated could take out a tank. If you wanted to be pedantic, you could claim it wasn't a HEAT, but for all intents and purposes, that's what it is: an HE round that could take out a tank.

HOW it could take out a tank is left up to imagination. The Mariage leader just said it could.

[prescience]

The exact line in question (from here) is:

[1] Mariage: Right arm armament/weapon, form/morph, high explosive howitzer (artillery) style cannon. (Note: There’s no kill like overkill, people!)

It seems that it's the "howitzer" bit that arkhangelsk is concerned with, since that would (I assume) imply a spherical blast (as opposed to the shaped blast of a HEAT round), which in reality would not be effective against heavy armor.

However, we don't know how exact Nagumo was being with the translation, so any argument relying on these details is quite tenuous. Perhaps the advice of someone with good technical Japanese would be of use here. But we don't need to know about the specifics for the purposes of this discussion, because it is quite clearly stated in less technical terms that:

[2] Mariage: That was a shell that could destroy a tank in one blow. It’s not something that normal body could withstand/resist…

Even if the translation in [1] is precisely correct, that doesn't invalidate the fact that [2] states outright and unambiguously that, in-universe, the round was capable of destroying a tank. It would mean that the author didn't do his homework before throwing technical terms around, and I can understand why arkhangelsk would find that irritating, but it really is irrelevant to the discussion.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Panic? Quattro isn't a person to panic. When Vita destroyed the Cradle's engine, she wasn't panicking. When Fate showed up at her and Dieci's location, she didn't panic. When she realized Hayate was dropping a Diabolic Emission on her shortly thereafter, she didn't panic. When Nanoha and Fate had them cornered and were about to blast them, she didn't panic.

So, if Quattro isn't the type to panic in the face of danger as long as she knows she has an out, then we can conclude that she knew she didn't have an out (in the form of the magic cancel). She either didn't know about it (unlikely, given that she's running the ship), or she couldn't access it directly.

Well, Quattro was very sure she was in control. But at that last moment to which you refer, there was no other word for it. Did we watch the same Episode 25?

Thus, using up all that material on fragile drones, instead of reinforcing each one to be more effective, would be inefficient. Glad you agree that the drones were as powerful as they could be. =) In fact, the whole point of type-3's were that they were stronger than type-1's. So you pretty much have your weaker and strongest versions right there. And by episode 20, redshirts are blowing up type-3's willy-nilly.

Re-read what I said. He had limited funds. Thus he had to be cheap so he can make the most drones out of the money he had. And also re-read the part where the strategy worked.

By episode 20, scores of Aerial Mages (relative elites) were popping one now and then, but they aren't making a real dent in the masses and they were basically flowing towards the city. Fortunately as I mentioned the drones utterly lacked aggression. Operationally, the scheme was working.

Actually, I already said they weren't perfect; Subaru did get injured, after all. But they are a hell of a lot better than you are giving them credit for.

They are a lot better than I give them credit for if I close my eyes to all their shown weaknesses.

I've said all along that magic wasn't perfect; just better than mass-based alternatives. The burden of proof is on you to prove that mass-based weapons are better; which you haven't done yet.

I've already done so by actually bothering to estimate the speed and range characteristics of Midchildran rounds (and then comparing them to Terran rounds). I see that you can't actually refute the measurement, and you acknowledge that's what the show actually showed, so you are asking me to ignore it.

I pretty much accept the mariage's statement that the round could have taken out a tank; efficiency doesn't enter into it. A shaped charged can take out a tank, and so can a nuke. The nuke is less efficient about doing so, but still gets the job done. Same thing about the mariage's shot here: it was strong enough to take out a tank... and Subaru not only survived, but came out mostly functional and was able to take down the leader mariage. She had very little actual damage beyond some gashes here and there.

The idea that that little shell is a nuke is so laughable I can ... Anyway, re-read what I said. Given a weak tank, the shell can work.

And again, the very point there was that Subaru should not have survived as a mage (magic). She survived because she was a Cyborg (mass). Anything else would be to distort what the Miriage has stated and thus the information given.

I'm curious as to how you consider Subaru's cyborg parts to be a mass defense.

OK, technically this is called survivability since it did get damage, not defense. But let's move on.

She has skin and blood, a heart, lungs, a brain, etc. She's a bit tougher than a normal human, but can be taken down almost as easily, if you pierce a vital part or two. Given the nature of the round, Subaru should have been vaporized, cyborg parts or no. The only remaining reason why she survived, then, is magic.

Distortion of the scenario. It is stated that if she had been normal, she would be f*cked. Obviously, unless the Miriage was completely blind, she wasn't referring to a normal human, but a mage. Obviously, despite the fleshy appearance, a few more parts were tougher than you thought.

For a person who actually buys on a regular basis about extremely high defensive possibilities of one of those fluffy BJs even after they get penetrated by whips, blades and windblast, I don't see what the huge stretch of imagination is. At least Subaru's relative toughness is uncontradicted.

If the barrier jackets are as useless as you are making them out to be, then why does the show put such emphasis on them? Yuuno said way back in episode 1 "an armor to protect your body." Instead, you're making it sound like it's just a nifty cosplay trick. It makes Fate's Sonic Form almost pointless, then, since she sheds "armor" for speed. If it's not armor, then why make the point at all?

It may have high defensive capabilities against magic. It HAS shown to have a high defensive potential against heat (remember Ep9 A's). It has limited NBC. But kinetics, sorry.

Aahh, out of time again. More later!

[Nagumo]

Hm, was watching you guys argue about that line involving the arm cannon thing, I dug up the Japanese lines.

Line 1: 左腕武装化…(???)炸裂榴弾砲

Line 2: 戦車を一撃で破壊する弾丸です。人の身で耐えられるものではありません。

[Kaijo]

Ark, just as a friendly note, you may want to copy and paste into notepad or a word processor and type up your response there. When it's all complete, you can post. For now, though, I'm going to respond to what you just said.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Well, Quattro was very sure she was in control. But at that last moment to which you refer, there was no other word for it. Did we watch the same Episode 25?

She panicked because she had no way out, then. The whole thing she was counting on, was that she was a long distance from Nanoha and considered herself safe. Thus she panicked. In all previous instances of her being "cornered" or being pressured, she didn't break down, presumably because she still had allies in play that could save her, or knew how she could get out of it. Thus, when 25 happens, she has no allies and Nanoha outwitted her; she knew very well Nanoha was preparing to fire. If she still had a plan(activating the magic link cancel), she wouldn't have been panicking.

Re-read what I said. He had limited funds. Thus he had to be cheap so he can make the most drones out of the money he had. And also re-read the part where the strategy worked.

Where do you get funds? In fact, the whole idea of yours, that he was compromising on drone strength, isn't supported anywhere. It's an idea you made up to try and make it seem like the drones were weak on purpose, and that he could have made stronger drones with stronger AMF. Newsflash: he did, and they were called Type-3's.

For what it's worth, I think the cradle itself, and the base around it, was making the drones. He was just supplying power to it, perhaps fixing it up. Who knows how much enhancement he did.

They are a lot better than I give them credit for if I close my eyes to all their shown weaknesses.

Well, it's your opinion, then, that mages are bathing themselves in tissue paper. Which makes everyone in Nanoha a flaming idiot, if you want to look at it that way. Most people who like the show prefer to take the other option, so that they aren't idiots. You know, the one where it's backed up that they are wearing magical armor. And hell, it's magical armor that seems to protect better than kevlar would!

I've already done so by actually bothering to estimate the speed and range characteristics of Midchildran rounds (and then comparing them to Terran rounds). I see that you can't actually refute the measurement, and you acknowledge that's what the show actually showed, so you are asking me to ignore it.

Again, while you're welcome to do so, your figures won't be accepted by everyone as facts, due to dramatic/cool effects. It can be fun to estimate, but you can't take it as gospel truth.

The idea that that little shell is a nuke is so laughable I can ... Anyway, re-read what I said. Given a weak tank, the shell can work.

No, the shell wasn't a nuke. I was just pointing out that both a shell and a nuke can kill a tank, but one is inefficient and overkill, just as a way to differentiate the two shell types we were discussing.

And again, the very point there was that Subaru should not have survived as a mage (magic). She survived because she was a Cyborg (mass). Anything else would be to distort what the Miriage has stated and thus the information given.

Subaru has some metal *inside* her body, which is covered by normal human skin (and she's also got blood vessels). If the shot would have killed a normal mage, there wouldn't be much skin left, and there'd be copious amounts of blood. There wasn't. AND her clothes were still intact. She would have survived as one of those Terminator exoskeletons. Since her skin was mostly intact, we can conclude that she survived due to magical shielding.

Now, if the metal were on the outside, you might have a point. But it wasn't.

Distortion of the scenario. It is stated that if she had been normal, she would be f*cked. Obviously, unless the Miriage was completely blind, she wasn't referring to a normal human, but a mage. Obviously, despite the fleshy appearance, a few more parts were tougher than you thought.

That's what the mariage thought, anyway. Apparently, those darn mages are tougher than she/it realized.

For a person who actually buys on a regular basis about extremely high defensive possibilities of one of those fluffy BJs even after they get penetrated by whips, blades and windblast, I don't see what the huge stretch of imagination is. At least Subaru's relative toughness is uncontradicted.

We already explained about the whips, blades, and windblasts. Your explanations only work if you look for non-magical explanations in a magical show, with interactions and confrontations taking place between mages. Most people go for the magical explanation. Also, those that understand the mental state of an abused child, understand why Fate would be unresisting. And as was pointed out, Precia's whip WAS a magical device; it shifted from whip to staff.

Hell, Precia knows she needs Fate alive, so she'd be using magic for no other reason than to make sure she could inflict pain without hampering Fate's body too much, so she could still carry out her mission.

It may have high defensive capabilities against magic. It HAS shown to have a high defensive potential against heat (remember Ep9 A's). It has limited NBC. But kinetics, sorry.

That would make it quite stupid to use as armor, then, considering many mages use physical impacts during combat; ie, kinetic energy. If it failed against kinetic impacts, then Fate would be dead; witness her first meeting with Signum, where the latter knocks fate through several building levels. Fate impacting the building is a kinetic impact, and not only does she survive, but she's still able to fight.

So there is proof it works against kinetic impacts.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by dahak

Erm to a major degree HEAT rounds are a subset of HE rounds. Same as HESH, though one could argue depending on how formal verses literal one is that HESH might be a subset of HEAT.

HE = High Explosive. When used to distinguish from subtypes a general spherical blast round.
HEAT = High Explosive Anti Tank. I.e. a High Explosive round specialized for killing tanks. Usually used to designate Munroe/Neumann effect shaped charge plasma jet ammo as opposed to

In Japanese, the stereotypical Munroe HEAT round is 成形炸薬弾.

HESH = High Explosive Squash Head. Which is a type of HE round designed to deform on impact with armour to avoid the advantages of sloped armour.

粘着榴弾. Actually the idea as I understand it with this one is generally to give up penetration (the impact area is larger and this kills penetration), instead hoping to create spall inside to wreck the innards.

EFP = Explosively Formed Penetrators

自己鍛造弾

All are types of HE round and I see nothing to indicate which the Marriage meant. Especially considering the existence of HE Dual Purpose rounds.

As can be seen above, the Japanese terminology for all these rounds are very different and can be looked up on Wikipedia. When they write 炸裂榴弾, it is pretty much a good old HE-FRAG shell.

A CPC round from a BL 18 Mark 1 would kill any modern and many SF tanks but I'd hesitate to use it as the example, except to point out that it also is an HE round that can kill a Tank.

Exactly. Only in a case of extreme overmatch can a HE round confidently defeat a tank - either the gun is uber strong or the tank is uber weak. Since it is a Miriage's arm mounted weapon, the focus naturally goes onto the tank being uber weak.

Originally Posted by prescience

Even if the translation in [1] is precisely correct, that doesn't invalidate the fact that [2] states outright and unambiguously that, in-universe, the round was capable of destroying a tank. It would mean that the author didn't do his homework before throwing technical terms around, and I can understand why arkhangelsk would find that irritating, but it really is irrelevant to the discussion.

The round is capable of destroying what kind of tank? That's the question. The author is trying to impress us, but the combination of the its characterization, lackadasical velocity (which is a logical consequence of an arm based weapon), and the obvious limitations on the caliber in an arm based weapon, and the absence of evidence suggesting it'll be much better than a weapon of similar caliber in our world - the likely kind of Kampfwagen in mind can be extrapolated.

I don't find it irritating. I'm just unromantic and score it exactly as it is written, exactly how I'll make the ruling about a hypothetical arm-fired gun-like weapon in real life with the same acoustic characteristics and description.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Ark, just as a friendly note, you may want to copy and paste into notepad or a word processor and type up your response there. When it's all complete, you can post. For now, though, I'm going to respond to what you just said.

I don't know the wonderful working environment you have, but I'm out in the open, and I have TWO superiors regularly sitting at my back with good lines of sight to my screen...

She panicked because she had no way out, then. The whole thing she was counting on, was that she was a long distance from Nanoha and considered herself safe. Thus she panicked. In all previous instances of her being "cornered" or being pressured, she didn't break down, presumably because she still had allies in play that could save her, or knew how she could get out of it. Thus, when 25 happens, she has no allies and Nanoha outwitted her; she knew very well Nanoha was preparing to fire. If she still had a plan(activating the magic link cancel), she wouldn't have been panicking.

It is obviously, IMO, that Quattro is suffering from serious set at suddenly being targeted and is having trouble. She didn't even TRY to run or anything like that. She just froze. If you ask me, it is a much better explanation than the Belkans or Al Hazredians making a stupid ship design with no means for manual activation of the system.

Where do you get funds? In fact, the whole idea of yours, that he was compromising on drone strength, isn't supported anywhere. It's an idea you made up to try and make it seem like the drones were weak on purpose, and that he could have made stronger drones with stronger AMF. Newsflash: he did, and they were called Type-3's.

The very fact that there are a mix of Type 1 and Type 3s says that he has a sense of economy, don't you think? They are so cheap they weren't even named until the TSAB named them. I must wonder why you think they must be the state of the art in top of the line non-mage combat weaponry, rather than a cheap, mass produced castout. For the tiers above that, he got a bunch of Cyborgs. Looks like he had himself pretty set, and it is almost a shame the plot crushes the undeserving and allows the deserving to win.

Well, it's your opinion, then, that mages are bathing themselves in tissue paper. Which makes everyone in Nanoha a flaming idiot, if you want to look at it that way. Most people who like the show prefer to take the other option, so that they aren't idiots. You know, the one where it's backed up that they are wearing magical armor. And hell, it's magical armor that seems to protect better than kevlar would!

Whatever the magical armors' strength is, it isn't in stopping kinetic impacts. It doesn't mean it is useless, or its wearers are idiots.

No, the shell wasn't a nuke. I was just pointing out that both a shell and a nuke can kill a tank, but one is inefficient and overkill, just as a way to differentiate the two shell types we were discussing.

Precisely. And since the shell obviously isn't mega-powerful, the conclusion left is to shrink our estimate of the Kampfwagen's defense.

Subaru has some metal *inside* her body, which is covered by normal human skin (and she's also got blood vessels). If the shot would have killed a normal mage, there wouldn't be much skin left, and there'd be copious amounts of blood. There wasn't. AND her clothes were still intact. She would have survived as one of those Terminator exoskeletons. Since her skin was mostly intact, we can conclude that she survived due to magical shielding.

Except the possibility is practically excluded canonically. Which leaves us to work from the remaining conclusion that the skin was mostly intact because it was tougher than it looked. As I said, if you can believe those fluffy BJs are tougher than they look, what's so hard?

That's what the mariage thought, anyway. Apparently, those darn mages are tougher than she/it realized.

What happened to your respect for experts here?

We already explained about the whips, blades, and windblasts. Your explanations only work if you look for non-magical explanations in a magical show, with interactions and confrontations taking place between mages. Most people go for the magical explanation. Also, those that understand the mental state of an abused child, understand why Fate would be unresisting. And as was pointed out, Precia's whip WAS a magical device; it shifted from whip to staff.

No one said the whip was not a magical device. What is said is that in the absence of obvious magic, I took the simple explanation and excluded it. Especially for those shankers and windblast. Face it, Nanoha was only "slightly less capable". Don't try and treat the whole situation as if her defenses had shut down or something.

Hell, Precia knows she needs Fate alive, so she'd be using magic for no other reason than to make sure she could inflict pain without hampering Fate's body too much, so she could still carry out her mission.

If she wants to inflict pain without damage, there are a wide variety of purely magical means. Instead she chose to use a kinetic means. She may want her alive. No damage. not so much.

That would make it quite stupid to use as armor, then, considering many mages use physical impacts during combat; ie, kinetic energy. If it failed against kinetic impacts, then Fate would be dead; witness her first meeting with Signum, where the latter knocks fate through several building levels. Fate impacting the building is a kinetic impact, and not only does she survive, but she's still able to fight.

At least you are finally advancing onto the direction of providing counterevidence. Though technically the problem of surviving against shock is a bit different from penetrators such as blades and windblast, the whole BJ problem is one I've studied for a long time, and you can find the corpses in the Magic and Technology thread. Suffice it to say that given we've seen the limitations of BJs, the only explanation left is to figure that something extra, an active defense, was added for those impacts so the mages survive it.

I'll start by polishing off the undone block this morning.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

And bring down the entire room on you? You did remember exactly what conditions Subaru was fighting under? The place was damn unstable. That's what's nice about magic; since you can modify your effect, you can take out a target without harming the surrounding area if you don't want to. You have a number of different effects to choose from. Whereas, with a grenade, people have been known to injure themselves because they didn't throw it far enough, or threw it wrong, etc. It's a dumb weapon, and will just explode regardless of how it's handled.

Given that in the episode you mentioned, Subaru blew the wall in, somehow I don't think it'll make a big difference whether it was a RPO or a Divine Buster that does the wall busting.

Much more dangerous than magic. Even if we consider that both a grenade and magic can get the job done, I'll take magic. Not as limited by ammo constraints, more versatile, little chance I'll injure myself or make my situation worse. Trying real hard to see how a grenade would be better here, and not seeing it.

Less range, less speed, more preparation, less stealthy... at least if you watch the screen rather than try avoiding reality.

Everyone else seems to realize this; it's just you, mainly. Take the Divine Buster Extension against Vita; clearly six seconds by timing, which should have given Vita enough time to dodge. If really believe it's six seconds, then you have to believe Vita is an idiot. Then you have to believe that everyone else that hasn't dodged magic to be an idiot. The whole series breaks down and nothing makes sense.

IIRC, in the manga thread, someone speculated that maybe it is because Vita was in the middle of teleporting, and thus cannot just switch off the field. That would actually make some sense. But that's not the main point. Theories are made from observation not against it.

[quot]Clearly, you have a dizzying intellect. I don't need to accept any such thing. I simply accept what the creators meant to show: a cool scene that was traveling fast enough that the target couldn't dodge. Nothing more, nothing less. You're thinking too hard. :P[/quote]

You simply don't accept what the author did show, a six second crawl.

Then you should be real careful about trying to argue from ignorance about things you don't know. The 5 second thing came up again and again, and people risked their life to discover the weakness. Pain had every reason to want to use it again as soon as possible, because several people attempted to exploit this and *almost* succeeded. Later, he uses a more powerful version that turned the whole town into a crater, which left him unable to use it for a longer period of time.

There's absolutely no effect on Pain if he has a lousy grasp of time in standard units in this instance. Suppose the real preparation time is 15 seconds (pulling number out of butt here simply because I don't watch Naruto, but the analogy should work for the time it actually took). Does it really matter one bit whether he thinks that time is "5 seconds" or "15 seconds"? In any case he will have to prepare ways so he can stay alive for the 15 standard seconds it takes to charge, and if he can do that it hardly matters whether he calls that block of time "5 seconds", "15 seconds", or 50 for that matter.

And however hard you believe it, try this exercise. Instead of just insisting what was (say) 15 seconds on screen must be 5 seconds, look at everything that happened on screen, including any dialogue, any actions ... etc. Now, see if you can come up with a plausible way of plopping down all those events into the space of 5 seconds.

[Rising Dragon]

Not to derail the argument, but I have to ask this, arkh.

Do you derive any enjoyment out of the series at all? Because seriously, it seems like you're here to pick apart the entire thing, rather than be entertained.

[PhoenixFlare]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Because this is not the point I'm making at all. You're doing a strawman here, trying to set up a point to defeat, that is not my argument at all. I'm not arguing from the moral perspective, and if you try to use this again, it shows you aren't paying attention and merely attempting a strawman.

Peculiar. I vividly remember that was my reply to someone else's post, but somehow it made itself into yours.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

I'm arguing from a plain old logical viewpoint. As humans study things, they make improvements, and things get more effective. It started when Grog picked up a rock and hit Ugg over the head, then realized he could throw the rock and therefore cause damage at a distance. Everything else is an extension of that; hurling something through the air to cause greater harm to your enemies. Weapons improved.

Weapons definitely improved. And so has defenses. Pointing out one without the other is oversimplification.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

I'll say this again: The study of reproduction has enabled greater understanding of it. In return, what has improved is our ability to bear children, or prevent conception if we so choose. Way back when, people had tons of kids because not all would survive (and still happens in poor countries). In western countries, people no longer have tons of of kids, and indeed, the birth rate has gone down dramatically.

Which is exactly the point. The study of reproduction has led to family planning. The study of defenses and tactics, as a response to study of weapons, have also preserved more lives during wars. There is no contention that war is destructive, but that's not the point being debated here.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Reproduction study does not lead to rape. You have yet to prove this point, but I'll help you out because you can't. Rapists don't care about reproduction at all, just sex. Why would they need to know about reproduction? They don't plan to have kids. That's why your argument makes no sense, and why it comes across as a Chewbacca defense.

There is a sociological branch to studying reproduction too, you know, which, well, obviously doesn't just include family planning. Limiting reproduction study to just family planning and reproductive health is just being ignorant.

Reproduction study does not lead to rape, yes, but it does lead to a greater understanding of how sex can be done, or "where to put their bits in", as you put it. Didn't we curiously examine and investigate scientifically the various ways we can increase the pleasure in our partners? I think it translates really well into some of those obscure videos, which have been implicated to be watched by a majority of rapists before they did their crime.

Have a nice read >>here<<.

If you are wary, be assured that it's a link to a PDF in the National Library of Medicine/National Institutes of Health.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

It's great that you finally provided a link to something, but it has no place here.

Thanks for pointing out the obvious. I certainly remembered not providing the link to you.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

No, sorry, it doesn't. You deliberately brought up a bad analogy (and I called you on it before) and drew false conclusions, in order to try and the weapon improvement cycle wrong. If I were to play the same game as you, I'd go: "People rape and kill each other, and that's bad, therefore your argument is bad."

That's what you said you would do. Why would I want do the same? I am certainly not you.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

That's called the Chewbacca defense; deliberately making a nonsensical argument, hoping it would rub off on me. Sorry, it didn't. Your argument still doesn't make sense, and I explained why. Reproductive study leads to better birth control, not to rape and not to premarital sex. People have been raping and having sex ever since they could.

Somehow, omitting the paragraph which I specifically mentioned how birth control has an indirect cause in increasing premarital sex and direct cause in abortions helps a lot in forming this context.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

I'll make this simple.

Sorry, I stopped reading after that.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

No, I don't care about bad or good. Get this out of your head right now, and out of the argument, because I'm not addressing the morality at all.

Premise 1: Humans like to kill.
Premise 2: So they invent better weapons to kill.

These two premises seem to me like they have some moral connotations.

But you're right. You're not addressing the morality, but simply pointing out the obvious disparity in objective connection. Didn't I do the same? Hmm ...

Originally Posted by Kaijo

You can't throw a pebble with enough force to kill me. And if you're close enough to me, your fist or nails are better weapons than a pebble. You still can't kill me with a pebble. Of course, you'll probably bring something like a sling into it, but you didn't mention a sling before; you just said a pebble vs. a gun. Which is ammo vs. a launcher, but then again, you seem to be pretty bad at making proper analogies.

Well, we can certainly just hope for that. It'll be a shame if you did die.

And whether I am bad at making analogies or someone else is just obfuscating the entire thing is up for anyone to decide.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

You're honestly asking me whether people would prefer small incidents or disaster-spawning wars? Seriously? How disconnected with reality are you? Seriously try to guess at this: If you went out onto the street and asked people, "Which would you prefer? Small incidents that only kill some people? Or planetary wars that kill millions?"

Which one do you think normal people would pick?

This "small incidents that only kill some people" seems very unsmall to me. The Huckebeins have a massive, regenerating warship with unknown offensive capabilities, two Eclipse-infected people were sufficient to destroy an entire village in Raizen, and we don't even know what's the status of Thoma's Divide Zero's offensive capabilities (assuming he becomes an antagonist at all) and what else the Eclipse victims can unleash.

You cannot worry too much about what might happen in the future when there's an apparent threat right in front of you. And even if the future threat is going to be more disastrous, they can seek the counsel of Carim Gracia who has the power of foresight and they can start planning for mitigation after this threat is dealt with. There's no point worrying about future threat when you die in the current one.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Because history proves it out to be true; that's the whole reason Earth's history was brought in, because it shows that once something is in the door, it spreads everywhere. Once you understand government, you will realize "temporary" is impossible. Once you start making guns, they will find their way into the hands of people who will use them for ill purposes, and it won't stop. Because it hasn't. As I said, "Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it." Look at Earth's history, and you'll have your answer. Or ignore history, and repeat it.

The history has also shown that researching magic can also lead to having powerful mad scientist-mage like Precia Testarossa or the possible apocalypse such as those seen in Al-Hazard. Why have they not stopped all research on magic altogether?

Originally Posted by Kaijo

The other argument is that the TSAB can handle the Huckbein without resorting to that. I'll make that prediction right now. Wanna bet me? =)

By plot, yes, the Huckebein will be defeated by the TSAB.

There's still no denying that the TSAB's reluctance to compromise a little of their own founding principles will lead to the death of an untold number of innocent people.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Because mages can't be everywhere. All it takes is one guy hiding a gun, walking into a park and gunning down everyone in sight. It'll take time for the authorities to respond and stop him, but then congratulations! PhoenixFlare is to blame for the death of a lot of people, because he pushed through having guns produced! And the people will ask, "Why the hell did you allow guns in? Didn't you know people would end up using them this way? Why did my family have to die?" How would you answer them?

False argument. So will the authorities take time to respond to magic-based weapons made to gun everyone down in the park. Hey, it's obvious I'm a villain and there's no qualm for me using magic-based weapons to kill. It DOES have that setting too, no?

And before you go responding with magic weapons are not "dumb" and not everyone is a mage, I don't need to be a Divine Buster-level criminal to use low level attacks that can injure and kill. And not all mages will register with the TSAB and want to be regulated. Fate was an example.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Because we've had genocide in Earth's history, due to mass-based weapons. Seriously, I can't see how you would completely ignore Earth's history, or Orussia, and still claim that allowing a bunch of mass-based weapons in *isn't* going to lead to mass casualties.

The whole point of Runessa's story on SSX, was that not only did she suffer greatly in her planet's civil war, but it scarred her enough to help unleash the mariage's on Mid-Childa so everyone else would feel the pain. Her story directly speaks of where your mass-based weapons are going to lead, so you're basically arguing from ignorance because you haven't even listened to the sound stages.

But hey, we can take nukes off the table if you like. There are still a lot of explosives and weapons that can cause a lot of death in a short time. Hell, the world STILL has a problem with unexploded land mines and ordinance left over from wars all over the place, so even it doesn't even take bad people to cause harm.

There's something with "temporary" and "with regulated use" that just seem to fly out the window in the argument, but I'll just be content to note that you're framing the context to your advantage.

And really now, where in any of my post so far have I suggested that mass-based weapons don't cause casualties unless you personally infer wrongly (or just want to read them as such) from them?

Genocide can happen with either mass- or magic-based weapons. We've just not been shown records of anything happening for the latter, yet. Or maybe never will as it'll contradict with TSAB's policy that magic is clean.

Since we're going to go to this level, what can the mages do when having magic-based weapons of mass destruction? Mass-based nuclear weapons can clear a continent (probably), but magic-based weapons of mass destruction ... I don't know, wipe out Mid-childa from existence?

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Simple. Runessa isn't a mage. She's actually a good study for your idea of allowing mass-based weapons. Since she isn't a mage, she can't use a mage staff (no magic), and since she was brought up knowing how to use guns from Orussia, she got a special permit for a normal handgun, with some extras. She's a good case study in how useless it is, and the only real reason she ended up on this case was most likely her manipulating her way into it to keep an eye on the mariages she helped create.

If TSAB was really adamant about mass-based weapon ban, then Runessa should not be allowed one. Like dahak said, if she's going to be in any danger during an investigation because she isn't a mage, then she should just be kept to office/lab-work. Giving her a special permit to use mass-based weapon is just double standard.

But, after reading Sound Stage X, I'm not so sure if mass-based weapon is really that useless.

The item in question:

Spoiler for SSX - Disc 2:

Runessa: Roger.
She’s gone in? In this confusion/chaos, I can freely move. I’ve got to find her. No problems with the heat resistant armor/protective clothing. I have enough bullets remaining. These flames… are the dawn of a new beginning.

Why was she thinking about her bullets when she was considering going after Teana? It's clearly not just to pierce the fire-fighting clothing.

She worked nine years in the TSAB, and I'm going to be generous and assumed she had three years of training prior to becoming an investigator. If she did receive any training to handle a mass-based gun at all during that time, then she should've known or at least be informed (by someone or found out herself) that her bullets will be useless against a mage.

=====

Post below edited here:

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Not to derail the argument, but I have to ask this, arkh.

Do you derive any enjoyment out of the series at all? Because seriously, it seems like you're here to pick apart the entire thing, rather than be entertained.

I apologize in advance if this seems imprudent of me to budge in, but I felt obliged to respond even though it's meant for arkhangelsk.

It seems that there's some peculiar perception here that one cannot enjoy the series, see the flaws, and point them out so that they can be improved. Is it that impossible to criticize something that you like? Granted, the author may not even care for the flaws, but we care because we like the series.

[NorthernFallout]

Originally Posted by PhoenixFlare

I apologize in advance if this seems imprudent of me to budge in, but I felt obliged to respond even though it's meant for arkhangelsk.

It seems that there's some peculiar perception here that one cannot enjoy the series, see the flaws, and point them out so that they can be improved. Is it that impossible to criticize something that you like? Granted, the author may not even care for the flaws, but we care because we like the series.

[off-topic]This. So very much.

I'm a huge fanboy of EVE. I think it's the best game ever made. Does that mean I'd defend all its flaws or shut up about it? Shut a blind eye and ear to it all, just because there seem to be a consensus with hardcore CCP fanboys that critique/feedback is bad?

Of course not, because I love the game.[/off-topic

[MeisterBabylon]

Exactly. I play World of Warcraft, and so do everyone else. But it is also common knowledge that WoW's player base is best at QQing at every single mishap Blizzard makes.

We do all that, because we love the game. And we will QQ at the parts of the Nanoha franchise that make us headdesk, because we bother. Even though it may be hopeless, but somewhere we can feel that "YES WE CAN" vibe.

Because we love Nanoha. These tirades don't change a thing.

[prescience]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

And again, the very point there was that Subaru should not have survived as a mage (magic). She survived because she was a Cyborg (mass). Anything else would be to distort what the Miriage has stated and thus the information given.

Like Kaijo said, if her magical defenses had been insufficient, as you seem determined to believe, she would have had major visible damage - like with Cinque's Rumble Detonator in StrikerS ep17, only much more extensive. From the SSX booklet's illustrations we can see that this is not the case. Thus the only reasonable interpretation is that the majority of the blast was absorbed by her magical defenses.

For a person who actually buys on a regular basis about extremely high defensive possibilities of one of those fluffy BJs even after they get penetrated by whips, blades and windblast, I don't see what the huge stretch of imagination is.

Except that your "whips, blades and windblast" cases are all invalid, as I explained in my last post on the previous page. Which you seem to have missed.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

I don't know the wonderful working environment you have, but I'm out in the open, and I have TWO superiors regularly sitting at my back with good lines of sight to my screen...

That's the nice thing about working in a text editor - it's much less obvious that you're browsing a non-work-related site.

Though technically the problem of surviving against shock is a bit different from penetrators such as blades and windblast, the whole BJ problem is one I've studied for a long time, and you can find the corpses in the Magic and Technology thread. Suffice it to say that given we've seen the limitations of BJs, the only explanation left is to figure that something extra, an active defense, was added for those impacts so the mages survive it.

I've realized something - you seem to be focusing on Barrier Jackets in particular, while I've been talking about personal magical defenses in general. My point is that it appears that conventional small arms would be of no use against properly-trained and -equipped mages, on account of their magical defenses. If you took me to be arguing about BJs in particular to the exclusion of all other forms of defense, we seem to have been missing each other.

Originally Posted by PhoenixFlare

But, after reading Sound Stage X, I'm not so sure if mass-based weapon is really that useless.

The item in question:

Spoiler for SSX - Disc 2:

Runessa: Roger.
She’s gone in? In this confusion/chaos, I can freely move. I’ve got to find her. No problems with the heat resistant armor/protective clothing. I have enough bullets remaining. These flames… are the dawn of a new beginning.

Why was she thinking about her bullets when she was considering going after Teana? It's clearly not just to pierce the fire-fighting clothing.

I may be mistaken, but I had understood that Runessa was going after Ix, not Teana. My understanding was that Runessa was trying to increase the number of Mariages more quickly; it would certainly seem a wiser decision than going after a mage with much more combat training than her.

As for the more general point about whether Runessa's device is useless against mages, I think it was discussed on the last page, and I acknowledged that it could well be an inconsistency. Of course, as Kaijo subsequently pointed out, we don't actually know that she's any use in combat:

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Simple. Runessa isn't a mage. She's actually a good study for your idea of allowing mass-based weapons. Since she isn't a mage, she can't use a mage staff (no magic), and since she was brought up knowing how to use guns from Orussia, she got a special permit for a normal handgun, with some extras. She's a good case study in how useless it is, and the only real reason she ended up on this case was most likely her manipulating her way into it to keep an eye on the mariages she helped create.

This explanation is a bit speculative, but it does fit with the fact that Runessa has no experiences in the Armed Forces (making it plausible that she has no experience in wielding a pure-magical Device), and that we never see her in a combat situation (except when she gets apprehended by Teana, which hardly counts).

[NorthernFallout]

Originally Posted by prescience

I may be mistaken, but I had understood that Runessa was going after Ix, not Teana. My understanding was that Runessa was trying to increase the number of Mariages more quickly; it would certainly seem a wiser decision than going after a mage with much more combat training than her.

When I did the subbing for that, this is what I thought also. It fit within the general context and what she had been doing/planning. Ix is her target, not Teana.

Also, I think that her mention of fire resistance clothing refers to her own. I'm not entirely sure, but the audio in that track suggest she's checking it to see if it's ok. I'll have to check it to be 100% though.

EDIT: At 1:10 on that track it can be heard she's doing something, and the tone of her voice suggest she's checking it. Vid in question http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnlSK86ShtQ

EDIT 2: I would really refer to the audio versions for argument support, as they give a more full picture. Text is merely one sense, and coupled with audio it's much more giving. Even I was surprised how different some things turn out to be when I did the subbing compared to the script I had...

[PhoenixFlare]

Originally Posted by prescience

I may be mistaken, but I had understood that Runessa was going after Ix, not Teana. My understanding was that Runessa was trying to increase the number of Mariages more quickly; it would certainly seem a wiser decision than going after a mage with much more combat training than her.

Originally Posted by AtomicoX

When I did the subbing for that, this is what I thought also. It fit within the general context and what she had been doing/planning. Ix is her target, not Teana.

Also, I think that her mention of fire resistance clothing refers to her own. I'm not entirely sure, but the audio in that track suggest she's checking it to see if it's ok. I'll have to check it to be 100% though.

EDIT: At 1:10 on that track it can be heard she's doing something, and the tone of her voice suggest she's checking it. Vid in question http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnlSK86ShtQ

EDIT 2: I would really refer to the audio versions for argument support, as they give a more full picture. Text is merely one sense, and coupled with audio it's much more giving. Even I was surprised how different some things turn out to be when I did the subbing compared to the script I had...

Point taken. I rechecked it with the audio this time (thanks AtomicoX!) and somewhat agrees with the assessment that Runessa may be going after Ixpellia instead of Teana.

But, I couldn't be sure if Runessa's going to Ixpellia's location with the intention of intercepting Teana (since Teana mentioned explicitly she's going to find Ixpellia and probably Runessa wanted to prevent her from doing so) or just with the purpose of finding/retrieving Ixpellia.

In any case, even if Runessa goes with the latter reasoning, she should have expected a possible encounter with Teana, and she would've known her gun would be insufficient to deal with her.

It still doesn't explain why she checked her bullets, unless it's just to assure herself that she has some kind of defense/protection even when ... it would be useless (ugh, some circular logic there ).

Additionally, we may have another point to consider here: Jail Scaglietti made mass-based missiles for his aerial-type drones when he's been one of the more prominent scientists on Mid-childa. He would know that they would be ineffective against mages. And these things won't come cheap since TSAB has a planet-wide ban against the precursors for these weapons. The only other way to get their hands on them would be through the underground/black market.

[Arkeus]

Originally Posted by PhoenixFlare

Additionally, we may have another point to consider here: Jail Scaglietti made mass-based missiles for his aerial-type drones when he's been one of the more prominent scientists on Mid-childa. He would know that they would be ineffective against mages. And these things won't come cheap since TSAB has a planet-wide ban against the precursors for these weapons. The only other way to get their hands on them would be through the underground/black market.

Or else he has them the same way he has drones.

Also, numbers have a quality all of their owns.

Keep in mind too that those drones made AMF, hence most mages wouldn't even be able to fly/raise a shields... at least as long as they don't learn to deal with AMF (Nanoha the first time she met AMF in combat situation couldn't use any direct magic).

[PhoenixFlare]

Originally Posted by Arkeus

Or else he has them the same way he has drones.

Also, numbers have a quality all of their owns.

Keep in mind too that those drones made AMF, hence most mages wouldn't even be able to fly/raise a shields... at least as long as they don't learn to deal with AMF (Nanoha the first time she met AMF in combat situation couldn't use any direct magic).

Numbers have a quality of their own, true, but that number has to be useful to be quality. Otherwise, they're still duds.

The AMF would probably work against mages well and allowing them to be hit, but as someone pointed out here, the Barrier Jackets were shown to be somewhat resistant to mass-based damage (which is entirely in arkhangelsk's park ...). And those aerial-types Nanoha and Fate dealt with did not seem to emit any noticeable AMF large enough that it'd be effective for long-range missile attacks, so unless Jail wants to rely on ground drones to weaken flying mages' magic for these aerial-types, this tactic wouldn't work.

[prescience]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Except the possibility is practically excluded canonically. Which leaves us to work from the remaining conclusion that the skin was mostly intact because it was tougher than it looked.

Except that we know canonically that Subaru's skin isn't unnaturally tough. In a flashback, we see her getting cuts and scratches from falling over. So clearly she can't be made of some super-resilient material that can withstand high explosives. Which leaves us with the conclusion that the Mariage leader was mistaken in its judgment. And, as I've pointed out, it's quite typical for an antagonist to underestimate the protagonist before getting his/her/its comeuppance.

Originally Posted by PhoenixFlare

But, I couldn't be sure if Runessa's going to Ixpellia's location with the intention of intercepting Teana (since Teana mentioned explicitly she's going to find Ixpellia and probably Runessa wanted to prevent her from doing so) or just with the purpose of finding/retrieving Ixpellia.

In any case, even if Runessa goes with the latter reasoning, she should have expected a possible encounter with Teana, and she would've known her gun would be insufficient to deal with her.

I would presume that she expected to have a large number of Mariage at her command by the time she might have an encounter with Teana, and she assumed that they would be enough to deal with any opposition she might come across.

It still doesn't explain why she checked her bullets, unless it's just to assure herself that she has some kind of defense/protection even when ... it would be useless (ugh, some circular logic there ).

Well, if she grew up as a soldier, checking her ammo might just be something instinctive for her when she's in a dangerous situation.

Originally Posted by PhoenixFlare

Additionally, we may have another point to consider here: Jail Scaglietti made mass-based missiles for his aerial-type drones when he's been one of the more prominent scientists on Mid-childa. He would know that they would be ineffective against mages. And these things won't come cheap since TSAB has a planet-wide ban against the precursors for these weapons. The only other way to get their hands on them would be through the underground/black market.

Originally Posted by Arkeus

Or else he has them the same way he has drones.

Also, numbers have a quality all of their owns.

Keep in mind too that those drones made AMF, hence most mages wouldn't even be able to fly/raise a shields... at least as long as they don't learn to deal with AMF (Nanoha the first time she met AMF in combat situation couldn't use any direct magic).

Originally Posted by PhoenixFlare

Numbers have a quality of their own, true, but that number has to be useful to be quality. Otherwise, they're still duds.

The AMF would probably work against mages well and allowing them to be hit, but as someone pointed out here, the Barrier Jackets were shown to be somewhat resistant to mass-based damage (which is entirely in arkhangelsk's park ...). And those aerial-types Nanoha and Fate dealt with did not seem to emit any noticeable AMF large enough that it'd be effective for long-range missile attacks, so unless Jail wants to rely on ground drones to weaken flying mages' magic for these aerial-types, this tactic wouldn't work.

Given that (IIRC) the missiles aren't ever shown to be effective against mages, this simply raises the question of why Spaghetti added them in the first place. And it seems that most of the time we see the Drones using energy beams rather than missiles when fighting against mages, so I wonder if perhaps he intended them for a different purpose, like for destroying buildings or something? I'd need to go back and rewatch the relevant scenes from StrikerS to find whether there's anything that backs this up, though...

I suspect it's actually just because the person responsible thought "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if the Drones shoot missiles at them?" and threw them in without thinking about the implications. But that sort of argument is outside the scope of this discussion

[Arkeus]

Originally Posted by PhoenixFlare

Numbers have a quality of their own, true, but that number has to be useful to be quality. Otherwise, they're still duds.

The AMF would probably work against mages well and allowing them to be hit, but as someone pointed out here, the Barrier Jackets were shown to be somewhat resistant to mass-based damage (which is entirely in arkhangelsk's park ...). And those aerial-types Nanoha and Fate dealt with did not seem to emit any noticeable AMF large enough that it'd be effective for long-range missile attacks, so unless Jail wants to rely on ground drones to weaken flying mages' magic for these aerial-types, this tactic wouldn't work.

Originally Posted by prescience

Given that (IIRC) the missiles aren't ever shown to be effective against mages, this simply raises the question of why Spaghetti added them in the first place. And it seems that most of the time we see the Drones using energy beams rather than missiles when fighting against mages, so I wonder if perhaps he intended them for a different purpose, like for destroying buildings or something? I'd need to go back and rewatch the relevant scenes from StrikerS to find whether there's anything that backs this up, though...

I suspect it's actually just because the person responsible thought "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if the Drones shoot missiles at them?" and threw them in without thinking about the implications. But that sort of argument is outside the scope of this discussion

As prescience said, not all targets would be mages, and using a combination of missiles for Area-attacks and beams can be useful.

Also, keep in mind we don't actually know how powerful those missiles were, *and there is absolutely no reason those missiles couldn't, you know, emit AMF*.

After all, that's the advantage of using missiles, you could very well use fields on those like AMF.

Edit: actually... i am probably wrong:

シュートバレット　バレットＦ – Shoot Barret – Barret F
(StS DVD3)
A guided shot which automatically locks onto any heat sources, using a high powered explosive bullet.
Since automatically guided bullets allow the user to be completely free after firing, these skills have merit in allowing the user to transition quickly to their next action.

[prescience]

Originally Posted by Arkeus

Also, keep in mind we don't actually know how powerful those missiles were, *and there is absolutely no reason those missiles couldn't, you know, emit AMF*.

I would be quite reluctant to accept this line of reasoning. I agree that we don't really know much about the missiles (AFAIK, we don't actually know that they are mass-based; it just seems like a reasonable assumption). But I imagine that a nontrivial power source would be necessary to power an AMF generator; not the sort of thing you would be willing to throw away on disposable a single-use weapon.

EDIT: Ninja'd in a most peculiar fashion. The fact that they are heat-seeking missiles makes it unlikely that they are primarily intended for use against buildings. Which leaves us with three possibilities:
1) They are intended for use against mages, but are ineffective (seems unlikely)
2) They are intended for use against mages, and are effective
3) They are intended for use against unshielded vehicles and/or non-mage personnel

Do we have any concrete evidence on this? I skimmed through StrikerS briefly, and couldn't find anything. IIRC we never actually see the missiles damage anything, but my memory is a bit hazy on this.