Clannad ~After Story~ - Episode 22 Discussion / Poll [END]

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Tempester

You took the words out of my mind Kaioshin-sama. I absolutely love the True Ending, it feels justified because Tomoya gets what he deserves in the end after all that emotional pain. But in the end, I think it lost the message of the story. We can relate with Tomoya raising Ushio as a single father and the story ending that way, because people, including our spouses, pass away in real life and they don't come back. But how can we relate to traveling back in time to save your wife from death? True End is a beautiful ending, but at the same time it feels distant and we can't sympathize with the characters anymore.

I'm glad you understand what I'm getting at. To put it more simply nonetheless, let's just say I vastly prefer the lesson, "There's always more to life and ways to grow and to metaphorically start over after you think there's no reason to go on living" to, "Whatever happens doesn't really matter because there's always a chance to literally start over".

Originally Posted by Sheba

Mai-HiMe, Nanoha A's, need I name more? Oh wait, there be no mechs, no huge war, no politics.

Yep, but in Mai-Hime's case I think it deserved it. In that story too the way the ending was used ended up contradicting the theme presented immediately before it which I also happened to feel was a much better lesson. All for the sake of a happy ending. The only difference between what happened with these endings is that Mai-Hime got rightfully criticized for it whereas Clannad is mostly getting away with it all scot free because I guess raw emotion is enough for most people. Meh....at least I know where I stand.

Oh and In Nanoha A's case it was more of a break even because if I recall there was no theme contradicted by what happened with the Volkenritter.

[Haruyasha]

Originally Posted by panzerfan

Well now now, it's not as if Maeda Jun didn't have a bit of that Tomino-esque kill'em all attitude demonstrated in Ideon. Originally his script goes only as far as episode 21... rather sadistic, and strangely enough Toei didn't opt that way in movie too.

But anyways, that's getting sidetracked from this episode.

This episode has two animation directors and I think you can see how much budget goes into making this sole episode. I hope KyoAni doesn't stretch itself too thin out of this one though.

So in other words.. 21 would be considered the real end then?

I'm fine with that.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

The only difference between what happened with these endings is that Mai-Hime got rightfully criticized for it whereas Clannad is mostly getting away with it all scot free because I guess raw emotion is enough for most people.

This is because Clannad has incredible production quality, wonderful characters, and is just damned good.

This is the sort of thing KyoAni can accomplish, and why people let things like this slide.


Maybe you'll like Little Busters better. From what I know about it, it's very... different... from most other Key stories.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

This is the sort of thing KyoAni can accomplish, and why people let things like this slide.

I know.....believe me I know.

[Ithekro]

Chiisana Tenohira is entirely intact with only some narration/dialogue over it in the quieter places at the start. Also it is in the middle of the episode...Touch doesn't even come for almost six minutes after it ends.

[panzerfan]

Well Torch actually isn't a distraction in this episode. During episode 21 though, I can't help but to have some dismay over its inclusion...

Originally Posted by Sheba

In an anime with cat turning into shouta,

I find adequate exploration on the messages of Clannad. This isn't the sentiment of everyone, but nobody should honestly expect the exact same reaction. Being in dismay over how there is lack of criticism is unfounded too since that's just merely trying to seek affirmation when it's not really needed over one's self-opinion.

To be honest, I think KyoAni actually did absorb lessons from AIR and Kanon in going about Clannad. There are far fewer ambugities remaining from the visual novel transplantation and that the support characters do have better balance in carrying the plot over. Mind you, this partly comes with Maeda Jun becoming more and more polished with his craft and providing better designs, but it does end up creating something more coherant than the two prior works.

[Dextro]

You guys are killing me... I'm eagerly awaiting this episode and I can't see it yet... Bahhhh, I want to see it!!!

[christgch]

I'll wait for subs..

[Myssa Rei]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

I know.....believe me I know.

I guess it all boils down to what the viewer expected when they started with CLANNAD, and I'm not talking just about After Story. Are they coming into the slow expecting a slice-of-lifeish romance-comedy with some fantastic elements inter sped with the reality-based situations? Or are they coming into the show expecting a mystical story that also just happens to occur in a realistic setting? The game players like myself get it easy, as we know what we were getting into, but I won't be to surprised that the anime-only viewers might feel cheated.

And it is emotional cheating, in a heavy-handed and patently unsubtle manner, where you feel that the characters were jerked around for no more reason than to illicit a strong emotional response from the viewer. Then, all that emotional investment is... wasted, since the characters who've been pretty much beaten up emotionally, kicked in the gut, then rolled in the proverbial gutter since life has been OH SO BAD TO THEM, suddenly get a second chance.

Welcome to Jun Maeda's world.

I'll have to agree with Kaioshin this time, if only a little. CLANNAD was an enjoyable and wonderful ride, but due to the limitations inherent with source material used, fell short in unexpected ways. Episode 22 felt, really, like a denouement or anticlimax more than anything else, with the climax of the series hitting around episode 18-19.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'll grab my T-51b. I expect the usual suspects (I'm looking at you Chibi, I'm looking at you Typhonsentra) to drop WTF nukes anytime soon.

[danin8r44]

I can see why there is a feeling that episode 22 calmed the emotional building of the past few episodes, but I think that this is exactly what it was meant for. The previous episodes were all very heavy and started to instill this sense of "Oh man life must suck for him". I think 22 was meant as a way to look back and say well life can go wrong (as it did in the other episodes) or it can go right (22). 22 isn't meant to be a "climax" but another possible solution to a troubled life. If you look at 22 like that, it really doesn't steal any of the drama from the last few episodes, but gives a nice contrast to them and as a stand alone episode makes the heavy episodes heavier.

At least that's what I think.

and @Myssa Rei- Chinese stealth suit pwns T-51b so I'll just sneak around any WTF nukes.

[panzerfan]

looks like I found myself a like-minded player in danin8r44. Jingwei's shocksword + gauss + the stealth suit ftw.

Well, I guess that's a reason why Maeda wouldn't choose to initially pen the true end as in Episode 22. I think by episode 20, the audience can't help but to seriously question about the value of family and the people around you against that of your own. Nevertheless, reaching an actual conclusion does bring a degree of closure to the narrative, despite any objection on how the conclusion impacted the sentiment of relevance of the prior experience.

[cyberdemon]

i wanted to pull a Fuko on Ushio when i saw

Spoiler for Ushio:

Ushio wearing a Kimono

[Ithekro]

I'd rather pull a Rena.

Spoiler for MILF!:

For Nagisa as a MILF. I want to take her home.
Also somethings don't change. Sanae and Akio still run around the town because of her bread.

[khryoleoz]

Finally, an undoing of dramatic events that I really wanted to happen. As much as I've appreciated the emotional roller coaster (I'm a near complete wreck for goodness sakes) I've been put through since Ushio's birth, in the end what I would rather see is the preservation of a family, and where I can do anything towards ensuring that, I will go through hell and back and then some.

I love Clannad. Though I have a particular fondness (or fetish) for the tsundere character, give me Nagisa and Tomoya all the way! Woo hoo!

[Leo_Otaku]

Spoiler for the episode:

The really, really adored the imagery that was used at the start of the episode. It was so amazing. The way the snow had her buried and her eyes watching from the snow gave a really good visual feel. I was very very happy they had kept my favorite line. The destruction of that world was specatular. I was exteremly un-doubtfluy happy when they used "Gensou Shojo" I really love this song, the feel and emotions the song and vocals create is outstanding.
Nagisa and Tomoya's movemnets were incredibly well done. I highly enjoyed watching that scene.
The ending song "A Tiny Palm" was so beautiful seeing the animated visuals exactly how I imagined. I was annoyed Kappei wasn't shown a big WTF and why didn't Sane and Akio get their stories? >.>
The part with Ibuki and Fuko could have been shorter and I really think the ending should have been A tiny palm just my choice, with Fuko and Ibuki after.
I was surprised they had Fuko see her and then see Ushio a nice change from the game.

As to people who saw the episdoe and are going wtf I would almost ALMOST agree with you expect for the fact that the Illusionary World creation is one the best things of the story. This created the outcome and was done in such a beautiful way if the Illusionary World didn't exist well then might as well not have any other stories and just give the focus on Nagisa Tomoya and call it slice of life drama. Sorry wrong genre and wrong company to be asking for such.
If you want to see something more realistic or whatever go see Tomoyo After

[Proto]

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The only difference between what happened with these endings is that Mai-Hime got rightfully criticized for it whereas Clannad is mostly getting away with it all scot free because I guess raw emotion is enough for most people.

Oh c'mon, the fact that some of us are liking it doesn't mean that we are all a bunch of gut thinkers

I'll have to agree with Kaioshin this time, if only a little. CLANNAD was an enjoyable and wonderful ride, but due to the limitations inherent with source material used, fell short in unexpected ways. Episode 22 felt, really, like a denouement or anticlimax more than anything else, with the climax of the series hitting around episode 18-19.

Well, that's not the fault of the ending itself, but of people expecting it to be a climax at all. As you mentioned, the climax of the series was back at 18. To be frank, most people even without being spoiled and just with paying attention to the little details that were spread throughout the series knew where this all was going. As such, the ending was just intended as a logical conclusion, as a reward to the characters and the viewers, to the former for their struggles and their emotional growup, to the later for having been along the characters all this time, but definitely not as a 'BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
(...)
(...)
(...)
aAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
(...)
AAWW kind of episode. I wouldn't call it an anti climax though, since an anti climax, as a literally resource means that a difficult and seemingly difficult to resolve plot (the intended lead up to the climax) was just solved with something trivial, which is not the case. I hope I'm making myself clear.

[Change of Pace]

C-can someone please post a picture of teenage!Mei? Seriously, I'm gonna be eagerly awaiting the episode's conclusion just so I can see that if I don't get a spoiler shot of it before hand. ;_; It's hard enough already waiting for those subs.

[harukamae]

Still a bit puzzled on the light orbs and the other world, but perhaps a rewatching and a trip to the Spoilers Thread will help! :-)

All in all though, a fitting ending and a definite tearjerker, though I'm still left wondering over the significance of the "friend" Fuuko finds.

Spoiler for 22:

I'm trying to figure out if there's an explained canon significance or just a "hey, that's cool! Ushio's the Illusionary World Girl" deal.

10/10 Now how'll I get my anime drama fix?

[Teletha]

I tried to be all reasonable and say there is more lesson to learn in keeping both Ushio and Nagisa dead because people don't come back, but I couldn't do it. Girly tears of happiness were shed when everything was turned back and you saw Nagisa lived. I don't care about the lesson. I just want my happy end.

Originally Posted by Change of Pace

C-can someone please post a picture of teenage!Mei? Seriously, I'm gonna be eagerly awaiting the episode's conclusion just so I can see that if I don't get a spoiler shot of it before hand. ;_; It's hard enough already waiting for those subs.

Spoiler:

[Myssa Rei]

danin8r44 and panzerfan: To clue you in, I usually play paladin-types (the diplomatic but can fight type, not the lawful stupid metalhead type) so the T-51b is up my alley... Despite my having a 100 Sneak score, haha.

Back to the episode... I think in the end, some viewers will feel cheated. Really. Especially if they missed all the magical references about how the TOWN, yes, the TOWN was trying to teach the kid who hated it a valuable lesson.

...About NOT insulting the TOWN.

Just kidding.