One Piece - Chapter 923 [manga]

[TURI123456]

Originally Posted by marvelB

The problem isn't that they were weak, it's that there weren't ENOUGH of them. I'm saying that taking Kaidou down wouldn't be impossible if a sufficient number of powerful forces strike him all at once. And I'm not just talking about the supernovas and Kinemon's samurai army here..... I mean every single force that could possibly be gathered. And on that note:



Now, now.... while shounen manga indeed has the tendency to espouse the concept of quality>quantity, that doesn't mean there isn't strength in numbers. Plus, remember what Oda said about Wano a while back? About how its climax would make Marineford's Paramount War look "cute" in comparison? I think we can expect several faces, old and new, to join Luffy's side when he strikes back against Kaidou in a war that will undoubtedly shake the world at large.... with the supernovas (aka the "Worst Generation") at the forefront.




I mentioned this before, but it was through Moria's arc that we first learned of Kaidou, and indeed, the Wano country, in the first place. Plus, we actually know that Moria had a history with Kaidou, and wanted to get revenge on him. In what way would that make him "irrelevant"? Plus, he had two years to lie low and regain his strength since Doflamingo's assassination attempt. I honestly can't think of a better time and place for him to return to the story. Plus, related to what I said above, he'd make a great asset in the war against Kaidou....

Did I miss something? Moriah maybe hates Kaido but he, not one of Luffy friends so I do not see this too sit and talk how to take Kaido down in a piece.

Originally Posted by marvelB

Now, now.... while shounen manga indeed has the tendency to espouse the concept of quality>quantity, that doesn't mean there isn't strength in numbers. Plus, remember what Oda said about Wano a while back? About how its climax would make Marineford's Paramount War look "cute" in comparison? I think we can expect several faces, old and new, to join Luffy's side when he strikes back against Kaidou in a war that will undoubtedly shake the world at large.... with the supernovas (aka the "Worst Generation") at the forefront.

When did the creator say this?

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by Tuor

Keep in mind that Luffy was fighting while enraged. That means he wasn't really using his perception haki as you need to be calm to use it properly. I think getting pounded by Kaido like this *may* help Luffy realize that he needs to try to keep his cool a little more before going up against top tier fighters.

That doesn't matter. Luffy did zero damage on Kaido while going all out, meaning that his power output amounted to nothing. What good is it to use observation haki if you can't even put a dent in the enemy? Luffy was simply outclassed no matter how you look at it.

Originally Posted by TURI123456

Did I miss something? Moriah maybe hates Kaido but he, not one of Luffy friends so I do not see this too sit and talk how to take Kaido down in a piece.

Enemies can form an alliance when they have a common goal. We've seen this in Impel Down with Crocodile teaming up with Luffy to escape.

[Magin]

Wow... Kaido really showed what it means to be an Emperor. Big Mom at least has a pseudo-weakness, and I keep wondering how the hell Shanks ultimately qualifies as an Emperor (most likely answer from Oda: I haven't gotten that far yet!)

Also, I think one of the big things we keep forgetting is that in the beginning, it took both the Admirals AND the Shichibukai to BALANCE the Emperors. We never got an accurate power measurement because for the most part, the Yonkou kinda did their own thing and the WG (and Marines by extension) never bothered with them. Plus, it's currently still debatable if Luffy is even strong enough to be at Admiral level... if not, then forget about Yonkou level.

[Tuor]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

That doesn't matter. Luffy did zero damage on Kaido while going all out, meaning that his power output amounted to nothing. What good is it to use observation haki if you can't even put a dent in the enemy? Luffy was simply outclassed no matter how you look at it.

Offensively, you're right: Luffy's armament haki and overall strength doesn't seem enough to hurt Kaido. However, *defensively*, it *does* matter. If Luffy can dodge everything Kaido tries to do to him, then he might be able to work out a tactic that'll hurt Kaido, even if it is just to tire him out. Luffy may not be outclassed in every aspect, but in this fight, Luffy attacked Kaido head on with no thought of how to go about it. He got whooped. But, I think there are ways he can reduce the gap between him and Kaido, though probably not eliminate it the way he did against Katakuri, who started with a significant observation haki advantage over Luffy.

[Darmill]

Originally Posted by Tuor

Keep in mind that Luffy was fighting while enraged. That means he wasn't really using his perception haki as you need to be calm to use it properly. I think getting pounded by Kaido like this *may* help Luffy realize that he needs to try to keep his cool a little more before going up against top tier fighters.

Good point. I'm pretty certain Luffy will do better next time and that Oda was just trying to eliminate any sort of doubt about Kaido's supreme might with that one-club panel.

I guess we all remember the clash between Luffy & Big Mom where Big Mom effortlessly beat Luffy in Gear 4 state which clearly showed the gap between an yonko & a supernova and Kaido was simply repeating the same feat if not better.

Originally Posted by marvelB

Now, now.... while shounen manga indeed has the tendency to espouse the concept of quality>quantity, that doesn't mean there isn't strength in numbers. Plus, remember what Oda said about Wano a while back? About how its climax would make Marineford's Paramount War look "cute" in comparison? I think we can expect several faces, old and new, to join Luffy's side when he strikes back against Kaidou in a war that will undoubtedly shake the world at large.... with the supernovas (aka the "Worst Generation") at the forefront.

Yeah teamwork can perform miracles. As Mihawk already stated a while back Luffy's true power wasn't his brute strength but the exceptional capability of making friends and turning former enemies into allies. I'd say the thesis still stands despite all the power-ups Luffy’s gained since the summit war and since we still can't rule out the possibility of Whitebeard pirates' remnant and Luffy’s own fleet joining the revolt, I'd say the chances of toppling Kaido are slim as it seems at the current stage but not impossible once all the powerful allies show up.

Originally Posted by bonsobon

As an aside I don't think Moria is going to show up this arc. He had his time in the spotlight and I think he's basically become irrelevant at this stage in the story, but who knows.

Hmm I know that Moria isn’t exactly everyone’s favorite, but it’s also not like a former enemy won’t make his comeback, either. We already have several of Luffy’s former foes being reactivated like Crocodile, Lucci and Bellamy etc., why not give Moria another chance to be back in business considering his history with Kaido?

[bonsobon]

Originally Posted by Tuor

Offensively, you're right: Luffy's armament haki and overall strength doesn't seem enough to hurt Kaido. However, *defensively*, it *does* matter. If Luffy can dodge everything Kaido tries to do to him, then he might be able to work out a tactic that'll hurt Kaido, even if it is just to tire him out. Luffy may not be outclassed in every aspect, but in this fight, Luffy attacked Kaido head on with no thought of how to go about it. He got whooped. But, I think there are ways he can reduce the gap between him and Kaido, though probably not eliminate it the way he did against Katakuri, who started with a significant observation haki advantage over Luffy.

Luffy's been able to dodge all sorts of attacks without using observation haki throughout the manga. Perhaps he couldn't dodge this one simply because it was too fast for him and nothing more. Besides you're making an assumption that Kaidou doesn't have observation haki himself. If he does it might be on a level higher than Katakuri. Or perhaps he doesn't need it and therefore wouldn't have mattered either way.

Originally Posted by marvelB

Now, now.... while shounen manga indeed has the tendency to espouse the concept of quality>quantity, that doesn't mean there isn't strength in numbers. Plus, remember what Oda said about Wano a while back? About how its climax would make Marineford's Paramount War look "cute" in comparison? I think we can expect several faces, old and new, to join Luffy's side when he strikes back against Kaidou in a war that will undoubtedly shake the world at large.... with the supernovas (aka the "Worst Generation") at the forefront.

Did you forget that strength in numbers will also apply to Kaidou as well? After all he's not by himself in Wano; his crew are with him as well. Luffy and co. are going to have their hands full with the likes of Jack and Hawkins (assuming he doesn't defect or something), before they even have a sniff of a chance against the emperor himself.

[TURI123456]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

That doesn't matter. Luffy did zero damage on Kaido while going all out, meaning that his power output amounted to nothing. What good is it to use observation haki if you can't even put a dent in the enemy? Luffy was simply outclassed no matter how you look at it.



Enemies can form an alliance when they have a common goal. We've seen this in Impel Down with Crocodile teaming up with Luffy to escape.

About Crocodile at this time Ivankov was treated him to work with them here Moriah can betray Luffy after the victory on Kaido.

[aliasxn]

This is stupid. What was the fucking point of the timeskip if Luffy is going to get pwned by everyone important anyway? Make it a 30 year timeskip then, and go back when he can actually participate in the story without deus ex machina.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by Tuor

Offensively, you're right: Luffy's armament haki and overall strength doesn't seem enough to hurt Kaido. However, *defensively*, it *does* matter. If Luffy can dodge everything Kaido tries to do to him, then he might be able to work out a tactic that'll hurt Kaido, even if it is just to tire him out. Luffy may not be outclassed in every aspect, but in this fight, Luffy attacked Kaido head on with no thought of how to go about it. He got whooped. But, I think there are ways he can reduce the gap between him and Kaido, though probably not eliminate it the way he did against Katakuri, who started with a significant observation haki advantage over Luffy.

Agreed, Luffy will get a power increase for sure as the arc progresses.

Originally Posted by aliasxn

This is stupid. What was the fucking point of the timeskip if Luffy is going to get pwned by everyone important anyway? Make it a 30 year timeskip then, and go back when he can actually participate in the story without deus ex machina.

What did you expect? Smooth sailing because of 2 years of training? This is the yonkou they're dealing with now; the top of the food chain. The result was obvious. Luffy's been a bit too confident in himself since the time-skip and Zoro even called him out on it by telling him to stop messing around since this is the New World. And now because of his recklessness he's suffered what is arguably his most humiliating defeat. Hopefully he learns something from this moving forward.

--------

When Kaido reverted to his human form, he didn't dodge, block, nor protect himself with armament haki against Luffy's barage of attacks. It was as though he was testing to see if Luffy can give him a challenge. Much to his disappointment, he sighs and quickly ends the fight in one hit with one arm in his base form. Oda couldn't make the disparity in power between Kaido and Luffy any more clear.

[Magin]

Originally Posted by aliasxn

This is stupid. What was the fucking point of the timeskip if Luffy is going to get pwned by everyone important anyway? Make it a 30 year timeskip then, and go back when he can actually participate in the story without deus ex machina.

Come to think of it, it's actually probably for the better that we keep seeing Luffy get solo'ed by the Yonkou. Otherwise we fall into the most common, cliche shoune trap: the protagonist beats the Strongest Big Bad... but the publishers want more (go look at the history of DBZ's story for the prime example of this). So now, after you've already created a Super-Strong Bad Guy... you have to create another that apparently comes out of nowhere/ you wonder what the heck they were doing all this time. By having Luffy still get beaten early, Oda ensures that there's TONS of story left to tell, even if it goes Rinse and Repeat. Heck, The link is elsewhere, but Oda initially had no idea how Luffy would beat Kaido, so it does make sense that Kaido would take Luffy out pretty easily.

Which now means we get probably a whole year (or more realistically, close to 2~3) real time of the Wano arc, and Oda keeps the publishers happy.

[Kanon]

About Moria, I'm also pretty sure he will come back in this arc. There really isn't a better opportunity to reintroduce him, and Luffy could definitely use his help. He needs all the help he can get, really.

[coded321]

Originally Posted by Magin

Come to think of it, it's actually probably for the better that we keep seeing Luffy get solo'ed by the Yonkou. Otherwise we fall into the most common, cliche shoune trap: the protagonist beats the Strongest Big Bad... but the publishers want more (go look at the history of DBZ's story for the prime example of this). So now, after you've already created a Super-Strong Bad Guy... you have to create another that apparently comes out of nowhere/ you wonder what the heck they were doing all this time.
Which now means we get probably a whole year (or more realistically, close to 2~3) real time of the Wano arc, and Oda keeps the publishers happy.

I understand that it would be a major asspull for luffy to defeat kaido in this arc. at the same time however, if we follow the pacing of one piece, its going to be YEARS until luffy manages to beat his first yonkou. and its not like there isnt a whole bunch of powerful enemies to beat, the three other yonkou, the powerhouses of world government, etc. if the mugiawaras have to beat each one at a time, the series will take decades to finish. much as i love one piece, it honestly feels like i've come down with arc/myth fatigue for the overall series. i mean, we all know the formula, the final battle consisting of the mugiwaras fighting the enemy army of the arc, in order to liberate and save some kingdom or group. and the final boss fight usually consisting of luffy, in a race against time, fighting a pitch battle to defeat the boss before some circumstance destroys the island or something, eventually defeating the boss barely in the end. even though oda is a god at storytelling and world building, at some point, its hard's to continue investment in the story after so many years. its like near the end every arc, i just want it to move one to the next arc already. its like i know luffy is going to win eventually, but now, instead of asking how is luffy going to win, i ask how many years in real life will it be until luffy wins. And at this point i'd like it if one piece will end in the next 20 years at least.

[The Small One]

Originally Posted by coded321

its like i know luffy is going to win eventually, but now, instead of asking how is luffy going to win, i ask how many years in real life will it be until luffy wins.

This describes my feelings very good.

We really have to consider the time. We are well into the second half of this series. If we really expect Luffy to become the pirate king until this series ends, he has to be able to defeat an enemy like Kaido by now. We also have to consider, that there is still a big war, united pirates vs. Celestial Dragons/WG, pending.
If the author keeps his pace of letting Luffy always loose two times, before he defeats the big boss, there won't be enough time.

[khoa1708]

do you think something like going super saiyan can happen in the one piece world?

for example, kaido picks up a badly injured tama and killing her in front of luffy's eyes; therefore causing him to snap and go "super saiyan"?

or is this too "cliche" for oda?

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by khoa1708

do you think something like going super saiyan can happen in the one piece world?

for example, kaido picks up a badly injured tama and killing her in front of luffy's eyes; therefore causing him to snap and go "super saiyan"?

or is this too "cliche" for oda?

Did "super saiyan" happen when the strawhats disappeared from Sabaody Archipelago or when Ace died at Marineford?

[TURI123456]

Originally Posted by khoa1708

do you think something like going super saiyan can happen in the one piece world?

for example, kaido picks up a badly injured tama and killing her in front of luffy's eyes; therefore causing him to snap and go "super saiyan"?

or is this too "cliche" for oda?

Not going to happen in One Piece at this point Maybe at a later stage of the Manga but not now.

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Did "super saiyan" happen when the strawhats disappeared from Sabaody Archipelago or when Ace died at Marineford?

Something like this already happened in the battle of Luffy vs Lucci so...

[Tuor]

My guess, there are two possible ways for Luffy to grow stronger: Awakening his devil fruit power, and improving his armament haki. His observation haki is already pretty good (when he's calm enough to use it properly), but his armament haki isn't strong enough when it comes to top shelf opponents. He has a bounty of 1.5 billion berries, and is probably a step or two below the Emperors, not several steps.

[Ramero]

Hmm... If Kaido become allies with Luffy at the end, that can be fantastic. Mihawk states that Luffy's abilities is considerably dangerous and Law states that Straw Hats crew can overcome even the impossible odds. Enies Lobby, Dressrosa, you name it and i think Oda will have an idea to make that streak continues again.

[ZGoten]

Originally Posted by Tuor

My guess, there are two possible ways for Luffy to grow stronger: Awakening his devil fruit power, and improving his armament haki. His observation haki is already pretty good (when he's calm enough to use it properly), but his armament haki isn't strong enough when it comes to top shelf opponents. He has a bounty of 1.5 billion berries, and is probably a step or two below the Emperors, not several steps.

The way I see it, Luffy is one step behind top yonkou commanders, two steps behind admirals, three steps behind Emperors and three and a half or four steps behind the strongest man alive. Awakening his devil fruit can definitely make a difference against Kaidou, and so can improving his armament haki. But that's not the kind of difference that would allow Luffy to come even close to defeating Kaidou by himself (not that you said so, just mentioning to be clear). The thing is, I think it's going to take a lot more than just Luffy growing stronger in order to topple Kaidou. I'm not sure all the samurai, supernova and their crew members combined would be able to take him out. They all need to become stronger. Well, it's either that or Big Mom is gonna have to pay Kaidou a visit.

[Tuor]

Originally Posted by ZGoten

The way I see it, Luffy is one step behind top yonkou commanders, two steps behind admirals, three steps behind Emperors and three and a half or four steps behind the strongest man alive. Awakening his devil fruit can definitely make a difference against Kaidou, and so can improving his armament haki. But that's not the kind of difference that would allow Luffy to come even close to defeating Kaidou by himself (not that you said so, just mentioning to be clear). The thing is, I think it's going to take a lot more than just Luffy growing stronger in order to topple Kaidou. I'm not sure all the samurai, supernova and their crew members combined would be able to take him out. They all need to become stronger. Well, it's either that or Big Mom is gonna have to pay Kaidou a visit.

I can more or less agree with what you said, with some exceptions. IIRC, Kaido has lost to Big Mom before. Whether or not the reverse is true, I don't know. I think that Luffy is probably on par with a yonko commander right now. Maybe a bit better even. But, he isn't at Admiral level or Yanko level yet. And, right now, I don't think Luffy could defeat Kaido even with the help of the grand fleet. However, there is one thing Luffy has more of than anyone else: luck. As things stand now, only luck will get Luffy past Kaido, IMO.