Suisei no Gargantia - Episode 12 Discussion / Poll

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by LystAP

Not necessarily, Chamber did note that Striker was acting out of habit for Galactic Alliance military protocol, nor could Chamber rationalize that "Kugel"'s actions were as a member of the Galactic Alliance, or determine if it was something "Kugel" did independently; thus why he deferred to Ledo's judgment.

Chamber could conclude and perhaps did, that "Kugel"'s actions could be seen as corrupt, and as the next highest ranking GA officer, Ledo could be authorized to remove "Kugel" from command.

Chamber didn't say anything about Kugel's actions, only about Striker. When asked if he could fight against Kugel he didn't answer, he simply said that he'd leave that to Ledo's judgement.

Apparently the fact that establishing an "ideal society" isn't GA's standard protocol is a valid reason to stop Striker, but not a valid reason to stop Kugel.

In the end what Ledo is trying to do isn't GA compliant either.
So why Chamber should think that is Kugel that's going rogue rather than Ledo?

Given the situation he should logically defer to the decision of the highest ranking officer. If the AI machine calibers weren't programmed that way, that would be a pretty huge oversight of the GA against possible defections and mutiny.

[Kanon]

Ledo decided to oppose Kugel of his own free will before finding out he was dead, so in essence I got what I wanted: he did go up against Kugel. However, I'm still somewhat disappointed they went for this incredibly predictable twist. I would have liked to see Kugel and Ledo argue about their now diverging philosophies. Kugel would have represented the GA Ledo now rejects. Now that Ledo knows the truth, he's going to dismiss anything Striker says as the ramblings of a faulty A.I.

I thought Ledo's attempt to convince Chamber to fight with him would be the highlight of this episode, but this was pretty anticlimactic. Chamber was surprisingly easy to convince. I would he would have at least argued back a bit.

Pinion redeemed himself this week. And he looked quite handsome with his hair down.

Originally Posted by LystAP

Urobutcher Ending: Bad ending + Hidueaze AND GA appearing in orbit and horde of evolved whalesquid descending on Gargantia/Cultist Remnant fleet looking for revenge.

No.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by mikeomni

It still could be. What we are seeing as a megalomaniac AI maybe someone's idea of a emergency protocol. Imagine in space you have adults and children in various stages of development. If all your adults got killed you need some way to ensure the next generation survives to fulfill the mission. The parameters may have been set up for pure survival mode. Discard defects, keep the best and ensure continued operation. If the exit threshold was set too high or not achievable then the machine stays in the loop.

The "emergency protocol" line of defense for Striker's actions is outright defeated by Striker's own claim that the fleet under her control is an ideal society that experienced a big improvement in achieving happiness.

Nothing suggests that Striker sees the current situation as just a temporary measure to face an emergency (which in fact doesn't exist).

[Jerseykid]

We see the effects of limited episodes. It all just came together too conveniently.

I await the greatness of the mysterious key

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Chamber didn't say anything about Kugel's actions, only about Striker. When asked if he could fight against Kugel he didn't answer, he simply said that he'd leave that to Ledo's judgement.

Apparently the fact that establishing an "ideal society" isn't GA's standard protocol is a valid reason to stop Striker, but not a valid reason to stop Kugel.

In the end what Ledo is trying to do isn't GA compliant either.
So why Chamber should think that is Kugel that's going rogue rather than Ledo?

Given the situation he should logically defer to the decision of the highest ranking officer. If the AI machine calibers weren't programmed that way, that would be a pretty huge oversight of the GA against possible defections and mutiny.

That would potentially give too much power to superior officers. Putting more eggs in a high-ranked basket, if you will.

Besides, I don't think Chamber would have accepted fighting against a superior officer if they hadn't been in completely uncharted waters.

[Netto Azure]

Originally Posted by stormy001_M1A2

My speculation is the golden key is some kinda access to an orbital launch device similar to historical video when the Evolved nation is sending crafts to space so Striker and Chamber will self destruct in space. Those 2 advanced war machines should have tremendous energy source as propulsion and if even one of them exploded on Earth, it would be equalivent to multiple current modern nuclear rounds in terms of sheer destruction.

Nice ending: Ledo/Red decides to stay on Gargantia and becomes intimate with Amy after Chamber ejected him out of the cockpit to fulfill its last mission in protecting the pilot while it hugged Striker to the orbit for self destruct sequence

Bad ending: In last ditch effort to defeat the rogue war machine, Ledo/Red with his mecha hugged Striker, shoots into orbit and self destruct - a noble self sacrifice.

Crazy ending: GA or Space Hideauze appears in the orbit.

Pretty nice theories. Although since many people here already theorized last week that Kugel passed away the reveal wasn't as shocking.

Anyways I wonder if it's going to be a mix of those. xD

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

That would potentially give too much power to superior officers. Putting more eggs in a high-ranked basket, if you will.

That's the whole idea, the more you are high ranked the more you have power.

An admiral wouldn't want to have to deal with every defection of any grunts. In the case of a commander doing so, the admiral would still be higher ranked than him and command all the machine calibers under him.

If an admiral were to defect then the central government would act. That seems logical to me.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Besides, I don't think Chamber would have accepted fighting against a superior officer if they hadn't been in completely uncharted waters.

That's probably the case, I guess that much has changed regarding Chamber and not just Ledo.

[SagaraSouske]

Machine Caliber prob require pilot input to stay as normal AI. If Krugel died as soon as Striker landed on earth, it is possible Striker simply turned insane due to lack of pilot input and eventually is influenced by what fleet it has landed on - meaning first making the choice of demonstrating power and they cowered before such power as suppose to how Gargantia acted when Ledo showed up. A combination of the a different decision and different reaction prob brought about the current state of affairs.

As for the key, it'd be awesome if it transformed Gargantia into a giant robo to fight Striker but that isn't gonna happen. It prob is a mechanism to communicate to the Earth Hideuze or the remnant of first generation hybrid that are still around and get them to help fight Striker.

[Dark Faith]

Originally Posted by stormy001_M1A2

Nice ending: Ledo/Red decides to stay on Gargantia and becomes intimate with Amy after Chamber ejected him out of the cockpit to fulfill its last mission in protecting the pilot while it hugged Striker to the orbit for self destruct sequence
.

Now that sounds an awful lot like one of the endings in Zone of the Enders: Fist of Mars for the GBA

[Kaoru Chujo]

One of the problems of having real AI is that the human programmers can't anticipate every eventuality. There's a reason why people themselves have so much trouble deciding what is right in various situations. Once Kugel died, Striker would have sought a human officer (unavailable) then gone for a plan of action based on the aims of the Union. Now an officer has arrived, but the new plan has become Striker's guiding principle, so she/it refuses to recognize his authority.

That is another bit of illogic, in my opinion. She should immediately recognize Ledo, it seems to me. That is logical, but it is also one of Asimov's three laws of robotics: 1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm; 2. A robot must obey the orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law; 3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Laws.

Of course, a military robot by its nature goes against the first law, so perhaps military robots have other laws. And Striker may have "gone crazy" and jumped the rails of its original programming, anyway.

Never mind. At least this is real science fiction, so I'd better count my blessings.

[Dark Wing]

You know I can't help but wonder if Kugel had not been dead all along and this series was longer would he have been a good recurring villain to oppose Ledo?

[mikeomni]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

One of the problems of having real AI is that the human programmers can't anticipate every eventuality. There's a reason why people themselves have so much trouble deciding what is right in various situations. Once Kugel died, Striker would have sought a human officer (unavailable) then gone for a plan of action based on the aims of the Union. Now an officer has arrived, but the new plan has become Striker's guiding principle, so she/it refuses to recognize his authority.

That is another bit of illogic, in my opinion. She should immediately recognize Ledo, it seems to me. That is logical, but it is also one of Asimov's three laws of robotics: 1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm; 2. A robot must obey the orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law; 3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Laws.

Of course, a military robot by its nature goes against the first law, so perhaps military robots have other laws. And Striker may have "gone crazy" and jumped the rails of its original programming, anyway.

Never mind. At least this is real science fiction, so I'd better count my blessings.

I would be curious if the last episode reveals the parameters that drove Striker to its action. If there is some logic to it, then defeating the logic could lead to a less violent end of the story. If the AI is simply "off the rails" then there is only brute force left.

Striker might not recognize Ledo because there is a minimum seniority to override its actions. Ledo hasn't said the magic words so to speak, or maybe was not yet told how to do this. "Striker, terminate program, authorization one zulu seven seven, alpha priority."

[ChainLegacy]

Cool episode. I can't help but think that the key opens up the wormhole... what else could it be for? It could obviously be some weapon that had not been mentioned up until this point, but that would be very out of left field for a final episode reveal with no foreshadowing.

So if it is the wormhole... what could they possibly use it for (Gargantians) and what possible plot implications could it have? It would certainly be strange for either of the space factions to show up this late in the show...

[triplez]

This was a blast. LEdo made a decision all by himself . Good to know that the GA's ways are not absolute that Ledo can chart his own path. The growth in character while predictable is still amazing.

However I still dislike Stryker being the one pulling the string. I would have enjoyed watching Ledo punched Kugel but it does simplify things. The talk of Stryker being insane seems wrong to me. WE don't know how much of this is Kugel's doing if he was alive on Earth and expired afterwards or it was the AI from the beginning.

It's still incredible, a cut-off AI from the Galactic Alliance saw fit to mold Earth after their image. IF taken all the way Earth could become another Avalon. Stryker could have open a new front against the Space Hideaze. The lost technologies from the sea would have made that possible. Course all the whalesquids would be dead.

With only one episode left the happy ending to me seems predictable enough. However I hope Pinion doesn't die. Between him and the stuff he found he could literally transform Gargantia into a mighty fleet no longer fearing pirates or whalesquids. I would hate to return to the status quo. There has got to be an alternative to the Galactic Alliance's way or even the pacifist ideology practice by the Gargantians.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

Cool episode. I can't help but think that the key opens up the wormhole... what else could it be for? It could obviously be some weapon that had not been mentioned up until this point, but that would be very out of left field for a final episode reveal with no foreshadowing.

So if it is the wormhole... what could they possibly use it for (Gargantians) and what possible plot implications could it have? It would certainly be strange for either of the space factions to show up this late in the show...

The problem is that, as you pointed out, exactly what are they thinking to do with a wormhole?

The situation that triggered Oldham's proposal is a situation that requires strength to fight or to end a war. And yet I seriously doubt that they are going to contact either the GA or the Hideauze, both would have terrible consequences for Earth, it would be absolutely crazy, unless we miss something major.

Then again there must be a reason if Urobuchi wanted to write the last episode in person while ditching almost everything else. There must be something "special" that is supposed to happen.

Can it really be something as trivial as: Deus Ex Machina X appears, Striker is defeated the cultists are reformed and everyone lived happily thereafter?

That can't be, right?

I'd be very surprised if there wasn't some kind of big revelation and a mindfuck involved...

[BoyTitan]

Originally Posted by stormy001_M1A2

My speculation is the golden key is some kinda access to an orbital launch device similar to historical video when the Evolved nation is sending crafts to space so Striker and Chamber will self destruct in space. Those 2 advanced war machines should have tremendous energy source as propulsion and if even one of them exploded on Earth, it would be equalivent to multiple current modern nuclear rounds in terms of sheer destruction.

Nice ending: Ledo/Red decides to stay on Gargantia and becomes intimate with Amy after Chamber ejected him out of the cockpit to fulfill its last mission in protecting the pilot while it hugged Striker to the orbit for self destruct sequence

Bad ending: In last ditch effort to defeat the rogue war machine, Ledo/Red with his mecha hugged Striker, shoots into orbit and self destruct - a noble self sacrifice.

Crazy ending: GA or Space Hideauze appears in the orbit.

No chamber is needed to help the people advance now that the have advance technology and from there battle in space they don't create big explosions when destroyed because ledo would never have fought whale squid on earth if that was the case.

Does a key to a elevator even sound helpful to you. Hai ledo we have a idea to help here use this elevator and gtfo with striker k thanks by. Orbital lasers makes a 1000 times more sense and seems like something that would get treated with the fear and respect it gets from the crew.

Anyways from this battle fighting to kill chamber should be able to avoid being destroyed lets check off strengths ledo has going.

#1 This is not a sunrise series where the most advance or newest model always win ala gundam seed,code geass,GC,Valrave you get the point, Sunrise has a terrible habit of making the newest unit or most high spec unit never loose to a older or lower spec one.

#2 Machine Calibers are not designed to fight each other they rely on 4 factors since fighting each other is vastly different from fighting whale squid

#1 First means of attack high out put mass targeting does not matter if striker has the edge in taking out multiple enemy's since this is a 1vs1 fight

#2 maneuverability there are 2 sides to this yes striker is faster but Chamber has a ace pilot in ledo and ground support so here they are tied.

#3 energy out put While striker does have more power find strikers power source and its screw double edged sword and its main advantage currently.

So chamber has a fair chance of winning. Hit and run focus on the units control center.

Honestly I would rather have kugel had been alive but the fight this episode between chamber and striker was good enough for me to just forget about it.

Chamber has grown more in the series than Ledo has him not taking Ledos side would have been a plot hole.

[Irenesharda]

Finally an episode you can really sink your teeth into!

Everything that has happened so far has come to this. Gargantia is finally making the move to make some changes and take a stand. The humans aren't crazy about this new order and start a rebellion headed by Pinion and Rakkage. For the first time in the show, Pinion isn't a douchebag and is actually doing really well. I guess all he needed was a new hairstyle, which I have to say makes him look ten times better. He's almost in bishie territory now.

Red has been battling against his ingrained training and has finally come to the decision that what his Commander is doing is wrong. He decides to fight against him instead, and Chamber decides to follow as his pilot decides, basing it on the logic that what the Commander is doing doesn't follow along with Alliance regulations.

And thus begins the most epic of fights as Chamber and Striker go head to head, while Pinion and Rakkage take care of things on the ground. Red is able to pin his leader, only to find out what I and many others guessed last week: Kugel has been dead for some time and Striker has been the one truly running the show. This begs the question of whether Striker's wiring has gone haywire or if the AI has become independent and is following her own plan? Either way, it has shocked Red to the core and he looks like her is out for mecha "blood" next week.

So what will be the thrilling conclusion to this tale and will it be a happy victory? Or will Striker's attack cause a great loss of life?

I give this episode a 8.7/10. The end of this show is deciding not to be a disappointment, and I'm glad for that.

[ginger02]

Hey this episode made me like Pinion and Lukkage more. And Pinion should always, always have his hair down.

Love melty's journey too, that couldn't have been easy. I need more Amy though, hopefully in the upcoming episode and OVA's.

The theme of this episode seems to deal with following what you feel is right, resisting corrupt rule, and thinking for yourself.

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by triplez

This was a blast. LEdo made a decision all by himself . Good to know that the GA's ways are not absolute that Ledo can chart his own path. The growth in character while predictable is still amazing.

However I still dislike Stryker being the one pulling the string. I would have enjoyed watching Ledo punched Kugel but it does simplify things. The talk of Stryker being insane seems wrong to me. WE don't know how much of this is Kugel's doing if he was alive on Earth and expired afterwards or it was the AI from the beginning.

It's still incredible, a cut-off AI from the Galactic Alliance saw fit to mold Earth after their image. IF taken all the way Earth could become another Avalon. Stryker could have open a new front against the Space Hideaze. The lost technologies from the sea would have made that possible. Course all the whalesquids would be dead.

With only one episode left the happy ending to me seems predictable enough. However I hope Pinion doesn't die. Between him and the stuff he found he could literally transform Gargantia into a mighty fleet no longer fearing pirates or whalesquids. I would hate to return to the status quo. There has got to be an alternative to the Galactic Alliance's way or even the pacifist ideology practice by the Gargantians.

I don't know if "insane" is the right word. It's more of that it's intelligence has gone beyond it's original programming and now Striker is doing what it thinks is right, either because of a reworking of it's original purpose, or beacause it feels that this is necessary to accomplish its directive. Sci-fi has been full of these kind of A.I.s from Skynet, to Hal 9000, to ARIA and VIKI. They all start off on their original programming until they become so aware that they go outside the bounds in which they were originally designed in order to accomplish their directive more efficiently.

As for Kugel, he's been dead for a pretty long time. I think Red's been on Earth for around 6 months or so, I think? (someone correct me if I'm wrong) and that's about 183 days or so. That would probably coincide with the amount of decomposition we saw after exposure. It usually takes between 50 to 365 days, depending on conditions, for a body to look like that, however, it all depends on other variables such as Kugel's physical make-up as a space living human, as well as the fact that his body has been in an airtight environment. Being in a sterile environment means that he probably been dead even longer than usual, since he has gotten to that point of decomposition without the help of insects or other things. All in all, I would say he's probably been dead since arriving on the planet. It could be that perhaps he died on impact, such as a broken neck?

As to Gargantia's pacifist ideals, I too hope things don't return to status quo and that Amy's push for the Garganitians to act instead or running away shows that they are ready to get out of the stagnancy they been in for generations. And that with this newfound technology, humanity can grow again.

[Marina2]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Then again there must be a reason if Urobuchi wanted to write the last episode in person while ditching almost everything else. There must be something "special" that is supposed to happen.

Can it really be something as trivial as: Deus Ex Machina X appears, Striker is defeated the cultists are reformed and everyone lived happily thereafter?

That can't be, right?

I'd be very surprised if there wasn't some kind of big revelation and a mindfuck involved...

Urobuchi: You mean.....if I make it a happy ending with no big revelation and a mindfuck involved, you will be surprise right? Ok. Everyone seems to able to predict what I am gonna do anyway. Maybe this way will surprise them more.