Mari Okada discussion

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Let me requote myself for you Haak.
I made a mistake in using Relentless's own words last night. I didn't come up with that phrase. This is misleading form the point I was trying to make, so I hope we can move on. No this shouldn't be personal and that's not my intention.
.

That's clearly untrue since you even went as far as to bring the claims of "articles" that were specifically about her character and had absolutely nothing to do with her writing. You wouldn't have gone that far if you didn't actually believe it.

But in any case, it's clear you're among others using the term "reigning her in".

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I'm sure the director or producers could have reigned her in a bit better Nagai style, but it didn't quite happen. The fact that people attribute a lot of that production's bad handling to her is not done without good reason though.

It's clearly an attack on her rather than her writing. If you what it to just be about her writing then it's a good idea not to use that kind of language. I'm guessing that's what relentlessflame is getting at too. If it's not intentional and malicious then fine but the point stands anyway.

Though relentlessflame was never addressing you to begin with and only accused you specifically when you went along with it. Even if it's not you, it's been a clear characteristic of any discussion regarding Okada anyway.

Spoiler for space:

]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

The bubble is going to burst, likely soon, and it isn't going to be pretty - she's building up a lot of resentment from a lot of people who can't wait to kick her when she's down. The question is whether she'll be able to rebuild her career after that happens.

Originally Posted by Westlo

TJR has a list of writers that have been prolific, they just don't seem to be attention whores like Okada as well as attracting people to talk about them all the time through their trolling ways.

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

I don't think I've ever seen a more unprofessional staffer in my time as an anime fan as Okada is coming across.

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I really think it all comes down to ego. She's probably an egotistical person by nature (just a guess based on her recent behavior) and when the industry began to kowtow shamelessly to her every whim, the ego spun out of control to the point where now, first and foremost, everything she writes is about her. The integrity of the material is sloppy seconds to that.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Haak

That's clearly untrue since you even went as far as to bring the claims of "articles" that were specifically about her character and had absolutely nothing to do with her character. You wouldn't have gone that far if you didn't actually believe it.

But in any case, it's clear you're among others using the term "reigning her in".

I'm glad you have insight into my own thought processes that even I didn't know about.

The articles I was referring to was just to show the kinds of priorities she places in her stories. Like the one Totoum linked about trying to go as far as possible.

Originally Posted by Haak

It's clearly an attack on her rather than her writing. If you what it to just be about her writing then it's a good idea not to use that kind of language. I'm guessing that's what relentlessflame is getting at too. If it's not intentional and malicious then fine but the point stands anyway.

Though relentlessflame was never addressing you to begin with and only accused you specifically when you went along with it. Even if it's not you, it's been a clear characteristic of any discussion regarding Okada anyway.

Well attacking her writing is attacking her, but this is on a professional level, not on a personal one. No I don't have malicious intent or bear ill will personally. I do hope she stops getting hired for so many products though.

Anyways I think I made it clear enough more of what I was trying to say. It was my mistake.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I just wish that you (and others) would have a little bit more empathy for the creators who bring us this entertainment, and not just this particular writer but all those involved (and yes, that's irrespective of gender). If I'm in their shoes and stumble upon this thread, I think I'd see a bunch of self-righteous foreign pirates criticising my writing choices as if they know me, acting as if they understand my culture and my work conditions, and this even though I have to do what I'm told in the end, and was hired precisely because of what my patrons knew I've written before. So, why all the vitriol? Is this about trying to understand more about what we do and do not like in our entertainment, or is it more about making us feel good about our opinions and finding someone to blame for our discontent? Of course, any artist expects their work to be criticized the moment they put it on display (otherwise, they'd just keep it to themselves). But I think we, as "critics", can do better. At the very least, I think we can focus on the product and our reasoned criticism of it, rather than finding various ways to slam a person's character and trying to construct elaborate gossipy narratives more fit for the tabloids than anything else. We can criticize a person's work without attacking the person; to me, such attacks are never "fair game".

To summarize, I think discussion is good, and criticism is fine (if people keep in mind that there's a lot they don't know about what goes on behind the scenes), but I would like to see a touch more class and civility in the conversation. That's really my only concern.

I'll give you some of this.

Truth is that people place an undue amount of emotional investment behind certain things and objects they've never met before. It's like the obsession about sports teams; people rage and exclaim in joy over competitions and players that will never involve them. Personally, I'll never understand it.

So it's fair to say that "Team Okada" has gotten more than a bit too raunchy lately. Perhaps it's gotten a bit too sensationalist and nobody likes tabloid style stuff. Personal attacks always weaken arguments, even if the arguments themselves have validity.

However, I would disagree about your view of their reaction to perspective of being in their shoes. Certainly there's been quite a bit of positive feedback as well. I think it'd be somewhat flattering to realize that a bunch of people who live far away, have developed some kind of bizarre fascination and appreciation of one's work. Or it could be viewed as a bit creepy.

I guess it's also hard for me to empathize with someone getting offended by anonymous opinions of people who really don't factor into their... well anything. "Oh no, people 3000 miles away who don't know anything about me don't like my stuff, hmm let me go back to counting my stacks of money!" It's a necessity for anyone whose profession involves the public. It is my feeling that they can stand up for themselves, and do not need protection. Though in this hypothetical issue, if they saw this and really said they were truly not happy about this, I'd delete every one of my own posts in this thread.

Now, if we were talking about harassment like certain crazed fans sending death threats, then yes, that would be terrible. If someone was constantly badgering them directly, it'd be a problem. Even thinking of said thoughts should and always be inappropriate.

I suppose it'd be harder to read past the more facetious posts. Then again, tone on the internet is hard to discern. Now, cracking jokes at someone's expense is the greatest offense here, I would guess.

There are certainly levels of hypocrisy that we are all involved in currently, and I'm sure I've discredited myself somewhere along the way. But I've always noted that my posts are merely inane ramblings and not reflective of anyone else's reality. There's also some of my imagination and what resembles bad fanfiction, but I think I made that clear too. Well, except when I'm right. I'm right a lot. Maybe. No, I'm actually wrong a lot too. So I will change the tone a bit more.

It does make me wonder though if there should have just been a thread about "Anime related staff members you like/dislike" instead of a thread about just one person.

[Triple_R]

As a pro sports fan on pro sports message boards, I've seen pro sports team managers, coaches, and players catch a lot more grief than Okada has.

As a superhero comic book fan on comic book message boards, I've seen some comic book writers catch a lot more grief than Okada has.

Being a prominent name in an entertainment industry opens one up to both strong praise and passionate criticism. It's just the nature of the beast, really.

I think people should try not to make it personal, but then people do get very emotionally invested in the teams, books, and shows that they love. And when hopes and expectations are thoroughly dashed, it's only natural for people to get upset.


Truth be told, Okada's writing tendencies probably aren't significantly worse than most other anime writers. To put it another way, her love of ecchi comedy and melodrama is fairly in line with current industry standards, really.

It's just that due to certain Okada works (True Tears and AnoHana being the two most prominent ones), I think that many people (myself included) developed a perception of Okada that was off. And some people are disappointed to find that Okada isn't exactly the writer that we had hoped/thought she was. She's still not a bad writer, though, imo. It's just that she's not exceptional, at least not in all the ways I thought she was.


Perhaps the pendulum has now swung too much the other way - she was perhaps overly praised at one time, and now perhaps she's overly hated on. Hopefully a more balanced take on her will be reached sometime soon.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

I guess it's also hard for me to empathize with someone getting offended by anonymous opinions of people who really don't factor into their... well anything. "Oh no, people 3000 miles away who don't know anything about me don't like my stuff, hmm let me go back to counting my stacks of money!" It's a necessity for anyone whose profession involves the public. It is my feeling that they can stand up for themselves, and do not need protection.

Oh, to be clear, I don't think she'll be offended. If it were me, though, I'd just roll my eyes because there are just so many thing we don't know. I think it makes us look stupid when we rush to conclusions and make so many unprovable assumptions. People only say these things because there's ultimately no one to hold them accountable to the truth; if you knew the person were right here reading this thread, I think people would try to not be so presumptuous, not out of fear of offending, but out of fear of looking the fool.

I do agree with you that I'm sure many creative professionals would be fascinated and honoured to have a bunch of people in a foreign land discussing their works. But I think it'd be more interesting if people would spend more time discussing her works and doing critical analysis, rather than the whole personal angle this conversation always seems to tend towards.


And for the record:

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Well attacking her writing is attacking her, but this is on a professional level, not on a personal one. No I don't have malicious intent or bear ill will personally. I do hope she stops getting hired for so many products though.

I don't think "attacking someone on a professional level" is necessary, and saying you "hope she stops getting hired [so much]" sure seems like ill-will. To me, there's nothing constructive about this sort of commentary; it's purely self-serving. If anything, I think that itself is unprofessional; I'd like to see people raise the bar a bit. Again, mostly because I think it makes *us* look like smarter, more reasonable people, and not just emotional fanboys on a bashing spree.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Oh, to be clear, I don't think she'll be offended. If it were me, though, I'd just roll my eyes because there are just so many thing we don't know. I think it makes us look stupid when we rush to conclusions and make so many unprovable assumptions. People only say these things because there's ultimately no one to hold them accountable to the truth; if you knew the person were right here reading this thread, I think people would try to not be so presumptuous, not out of fear of offending, but out of fearing of looking the fool.

I do agree with you that I'm sure many creative professionals would be fascinated and honoured to have a bunch of people in a foreign land discussing their works. But I think it'd be more interesting if people would spend more time discussing her works and doing critical analysis, rather than the whole personal angle this conversation always seems to tend towards.

Ah, I see. I'd guess that most of us tend to roll our eyes at any assumption people make about us, especially those that don't know us.

I edited it in my last post, but that was sorta late so I'll move it down here. It does make me wonder though if there should have just been a thread about "Anime related staff members you have noticed" instead of a thread about just one person.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I'm glad you have insight into my own thought processes that even I didn't know about.

The articles I was referring to was just to show the kinds of priorities she places in her stories. Like the one Totoum linked about trying to go as far as possible.

It's not insight. I'm just making the assumption that what you actually say is what you actually mean. Given the way you argued about her character, it seemed pretty genuine. But fine I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Incidently the article totoum quoted is also an example of taking things out of context. Do you actually know what she's reffering to when she talks about overdoing it? She was actually talking about character interpretation and staying loyal to the source. She's also talking about how it's neccessary to restrain yourself but somehow that got interpreted to mean her highest priority is to overdo it. Well it isn't.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

And for the record:
I don't think "attacking someone on a professional level" is necessary, and saying you "hope she stops getting hired [so much]" sure seems like ill-will. To me, there's nothing constructive about this sort of commentary; it's purely self-serving. If anything, I think that itself is unprofessional; I'd like to see people raise the bar a bit. Again, mostly because I think it makes *us* look like smarter, more reasonable people, and not just emotional fanboys on a bashing spree.

How is it ill will that I'd prefer other writers to get work over her? It is a self-serving statement. That's obvious. Why wouldn't I say what I desire or want from the industry?

The thread here is a discussion of this writer. My opinion is that she's overexposed and doesn't deserve all the work she gets because I don't think she's been doing that good of a job over the last year. The fact that I don't want to see her in all the shows coming out is not me bearing ill will for her, it's me hoping for the best quality product for myself.

I don't see anything wrong with this. I suppose this is where you call me entitlted .

Originally Posted by Haak

It's not insight. I'm just making the assumption that what you actually say is what you actually mean. Given the way you argued about her character, it seemed pretty genuine. But fine I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Incidently the article totoum quoted is also an example of taking things out of context. Do you actually know what she's reffering to when she talks about overdoing it? She was actually talking about character interpretation and staying loyal to the source. She's also talking about how it's neccessary to restrain yourself but somehow that got interpreted to mean her highest priority is to overdo it. Well it isn't.

Yes she was talking about trying to restrain herself, but that snippet gave me the impression that she had a hard time doing just that. And this for an adaption. When it's an original story, where my main criticisms of her lie, what does that mean for the writing?

EDIT: The issue here Haak is that I took somebody's red herring and use it as a discussion point. That was my negligence. Whether I meant what I said or didn't isn't the point. What am I saying now is that is not where I wanted to take this discussion and that was my error.

[Haak]

Nothing. It's original story so there's no issue of staying loyal to anything. She wasn't talking about doing crazy things. She was talking about character interpretation.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Haak

Nothing. It's original story so there's no issue of staying loyal to anything. She wasn't talking about doing crazy things. She was talking about character interpretation.

Character interpretation is very important. That's the main area she falters.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

It does make me wonder though if there should have just been a thread about "Anime related staff members you have noticed" instead of a thread about just one person.

I don't necessarily think it's bad to have a thread about a specific writer. There are lots of book clubs that focus exclusively on the works of a certain author and try to study and decipher patterns in their works. But I will say that this is usually based on some sort of degree of interest or fascination with the writer, or some sort of scholarly endeavour. (Given that this writer does have some degree of notoriety, I can see why there could be merit in such a study or conversation.) But what I don't think we necessarily need are "bash threads", and if this thread is just a hub for people to vent... well, that really isn't so useful in my opinion. Reasoned criticism based on study, research, and analysis is, I think, very interesting; I would actually be interested in reading it. People ranting about how one specific individual is "clearly ruining shows" they think they would have otherwise liked based on all sorts of speculative judgements and possibly-spurious subjective opinions... I really do question the value of this. I honestly think it makes the person posting look worse than the person they're ostensibly posting about.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Character interpretation is very important. That's the main area she falters.

I don't even know what the hell that means but I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with what I just said.

She was talking about character interpretation in regards to manga sources and staying loyal to the original source. It has absolutely nothing to do with how she's capable of staying consistent with original character (I'm assuming that's what you meant).

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Haak

Nothing. It's original story so there's no issue of staying loyal to anything. She wasn't talking about doing crazy things. She was talking about character interpretation.

Genuine question here because I honestly thought she was talking about how over the top Claude was at the end of the anime ?

[Reckoner]

@Relentlessflame

Character attacks on me aside, I wonder if you ever actually read what many of the people in this thread have said in her respective series discussions about writing choices.

Originally Posted by Haak

I don't even know what the hell that means but I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with what I just said.

She was talking about character interpretation in regards to manga sources and staying loyal to the original source. It has absolutely nothing to do with how she's capable of staying consistent with original character (I'm assuming that's what you meant).

That is what I meant and that is perfectly related to staying loyal to a source material. Deliberately changing it from the original source's vision is something that's usually a big no no for adaptions unless there is a clear vision they had in altering that adaption.

But anyways it's good you bring in source material because source material is an effective and natural reigning in of a person's writing. It restrains what she can do. This is why I typically don't care about her for adaptions. Wandering Son was an excellent example of this.

However the imrpession the interview gave me is a distinct desire to filter her own ideas in the writing and how she had to restrain herself. What restrained her? The source material! What happens in an anime original when the director lets her have free reign? Nothing! That means she gets to write whatever the hell she wants. I think you've seen enough of Aquarion for example to know that, while some find it genuinely funny, is an incredibly stupid concept for those not partial to her style of recent times. I think how she interjected her own ideas in an annoying and obnoxious ways in Lupin III with things like cross dressing was frankly an insult to the product that was established up to that point. The list goes on and on.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Character attacks on me aside...

Surely you catch the massive irony of this statement; that's whole reason I set it up. All I'm asking is that you (and everyone) please reflect a little bit more about respecting others the way you clearly want to be respected. I think some of the conversation recently (in this thread and in others around the Forum) has crossed the line from reasonable criticism (always okay) to character bashing (never okay). I expect that to stop, and that's really all I have to say.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I think you've seen enough of Aquarion for example to know that, while some find it genuinely funny, is an incredibly stupid concept for those not partial to her style of recent times. I think how she interjected her own ideas in an annoying and obnoxious ways in Lupin III with things like cross dressing was frankly an insult to the product that was established up to that point. The list goes on and on.

Though she had her role in its production not everything was her idea for exemple

Spoiler for MIX:

Turning MIX into a boy was kawamori's idea

And for Lupin III when you take a look at director Yamamoto's previous anime Michiko to Hatchin it shows she doesn't need Okada to go pretty far out there so I wouldn't single out Okada there either.

[Archon_Wing]

Well, in Okada's defense, Lupin apparently has had a Nazi Crossdresser before. So it's not completely out of the blue and I don't really think she was twisting the series to suit her perverted desires, at least as not as popular meme has it going.

If anything, that particular character in her own outing at least was within the spirit of outrageous and campiness that Lupin has. Some would argue that she's actually doing it quite well, though the degree with which is another issue.

For all the flack she gets for being involved with scripts where crossdressing gets thrown in, more often than not, it was used for productive purposes, for better or for worse.

As a side note, I'm speculating she's extremely adept at writing genki/energetic archtypes. They're frequently hit or miss to me, since they so rarely are the focus of development and thus we don't get any genuine introspection. I guess it'll feel safer to just define a character by their quirks and just have them fill up the energetic quota, and thus shallow. But this is different with characters like Noe and Ohana, and while this is just two examples, I'm sure people will note similar characters in works that have her name pop up. This is also a true to a lesser degree through the Yamato Nadeshiko archetypes that often are considered boring by many, but somehow always end up more interesting when they pop up in her work. A friend and I jokingly refer to them as the "Hiromi-Line" and "Noe-line" when it comes to recurring archetypes, since that's one of the more unique aspects that seem to happen more to just be coincidence.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Surely you catch the massive irony of this statement; that's whole reason I set it up. All I'm asking is that you (and everyone) please reflect a little bit more about respecting others the way you clearly want to be respected. I think some of the conversation recently (in this thread and in others around the Forum) has crossed the line from reasonable criticism (always okay) to character bashing (never okay). I expect that to stop, and that's really all I have to say.

All I see is someone attacking me as a person because I dare call someone's work in the industry bad, her practices to be unprofessional, and that I wished for her overexposure to stop.

This discussion started because you perceived our complaints as not taking in the bigger picture enough. I essentially argued that this wasn't necessarily the case and that I don't think you can absolve her of blame enough by trying to spread it around to other staff members.

Then after I gave you my reasons about why I think Okada has lost favor with me as a writer recently (And if you really want I'll break it down for you thoroughly on whatever series you disagree with me about, but I doubt you'd care for that), and to that you replied with some sort of ad hominem.

What is the discussion here really about. Mari Okada or how Reckoner and co. treat Mari Okada as a human being? I'll ask again, but calling into question someone's professional work -- is this really such a huge deal?

I already said I'm mistaken for having co opted the language you used in that post because that mislead from the point I was trying to make. Sorry. But my goal here wasn't to say Mari Okada is a terrible human being. I'm just saying she's been a pretty obnoxious writer in recent times.

I can't see how I can phrase my opinion here any better for you.

Originally Posted by totoum

Though she had her role in its production not everything was her idea for exemple

Spoiler for MIX:

Turning MIX into a boy was kawamori's idea

Lol well like I said earlier, I think Kawamori has been a horrible influence on her. He's gone off further in the deep end than Okada, that is for sure.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by totoum

Genuine question here because I honestly thought she was talking about how over the top Claude was at the end of the anime ?

Yeah she was, but the issue I take is that you were making it sound as if it was her general principle to always go over the top when it was very specific to Claude and her interpretation of him.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

That is what I meant and that is perfectly related to staying loyal to a source material. Deliberately changing it from the original source's vision is something that's usually a big no no for adaptions unless there is a clear vision they had in altering that adaption.

There's always a clear vision involved and Claude was no different. If you had read the interview in full then you'd know that.

But anyways it's good you bring in source material because source material is an effective and natural reigning in of a person's writing. It restrains what she can do. This is why I typically don't care about her for adaptions. Wandering Son was an excellent example of this.

However the imrpession the interview gave me is a distinct desire to filter her own ideas in the writing and how she had to restrain herself. What restrained her? The source material! What happens in an anime original when the director lets her have free reign? Nothing! That means she gets to write whatever the hell she wants. I think you've seen enough of Aquarion for example to know that, while some find it genuinely funny, is an incredibly stupid concept for those not partial to her style of recent times. I think how she interjected her own ideas in an annoying and obnoxious ways in Lupin III with things like cross dressing was frankly an insult to the product that was established up to that point. The list goes on and on.

It was an anime original and the director specifically said she could do whatever she wanted. But Okada still wanted to keep in the spirit of the original manga.

But we've been over this before and we know perfectly well what she's capable when she's not adapting anything: Ano Hana.

And I think blaming her for writing over the top things in a show specifically designed to go over the top all the time is just completely missing the point. Besides give me examples of things that happened in Aquarion Evol that you didn't like. The Gattai euphemisms? Kawamori's idea. The funeral training? Kawamori's idea. The dog thing? Kawamori's idea. The bare skin = power thing? Kawamori's idea. Mixy mixx thing? Kawamori's idea. The way the plot runs as if it's not been properly planned out? Kawamori's idea.

You think that the way she put cross-dressing into Lupin the Third was an insult? Sorry but I couldn't care less about that. I haven't seen the original and now that I know that it's completely different to the recent one and having seeing so many throw hissy fits about how it's too different, I have no intention to. All I know is that Mine Fujiko to Iu Onna was a great show in it's own right. If it's in insult to the source then I'll wait until actual evidence arrives, like a comment in an interview. But for me, simply being different doesn't make it an insult. There's absolutely nothing obnoxious about anything she's done there.

Do I wish that she wouldn't go over the top as frequently as she does? Of course.

Do I think it's a personal insult whenever she does? No.

[Pocari_Sweat]

Despite being very mixed about this writer, I'm not gonna add more fuel to the fire since other people have already done that and it seems several people are getting fed up. Plus, I already vented on the new PA Works anime thread for Nagi no Asu Kara so no need to repeat.

I will note that Okada is pretty good when it comes to SoL/drama/romance adaptations (Toradora and Wandering to name a few), and I found out a few days ago that Sakurasou was a 2-cour anime that is apparently trying to end its source at the same time as the anime, Toradora style. I also saw the PV and it actually showed potential. People were also telling me its not a harem which is a big plus as well.

Not sure about the Bones one though (Zetsuen no Tempest). Okada doesn't really do non-SoL very well but more importantly... it's Bones whose Zenith is long gone much like Gainax's is.

In the end, I guess I can't hate the creator for one of my favorite animes ever, True Tears, despite being mega-annoyed at her atm. What comes up must go down and vice versa.