(L) ef - a tale of memories.

[Kaoru Chujo]

Originally Posted by FatPianoBoy

Normal? It's potentially a recipe for disaster. What happens when Chihiro gets her story written and Renji becomes her white knight? When the wishes have been fulfilled, there'd better be something else there to hold them together....

Lol. All true. I was thinking of something like that as I wrote it: co-dependence. But I do think it's normal. Romance is not practical, it's romantic. It's just the start, but it is the start.

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

Further to your thoughts about Renji, grey_moon, I was re-watching the first couple of episodes and I had forgotten that whole passage where he was walking alone and thinking that he always expected to become someone of special talent, to be a prince rescuing a princess, but he felt as if he had failed and didn't know what to do next. So the whole relationship is a fulfillment of his needs and wishes, just as it is of Chihiro's. This is pretty romantic, it seems to me -- as well as being fairly normal.

It's amazing that Chihiro's illness is not just a fantasy, a powerful notion, but they might be portraying it almost accurately. Truth is stranger than fiction.

I have a lot of sympathy for Kei. Feelings are tenacious, you can't just wish them away. But I think she will find a way out by gaining feelings for someone new, which will seem impossible to her and then feel magical. Unless Hiro actually comes "home" to her.

Hiro and Miya are brilliantly autonomous and brilliantly irresponsible. Artists. I don't think Hiro is drawing for the sake of praise from others. He may have been stimulated to try by Kei and Chihiro, but I think he's selfishly doing what he loves and is good at and is addicted to and makes money at. Like an artist.

Your points do bring about a lot of questions in regards to Renji for me. Is he being nice to her because he really likes her, or is he being nice to her to fulfil his wishes. I do think he really likes her and your point about it being something they both need strikes a cord in me. I have to agree about it being very romantic, but I do realise I am kinda biased towards the two of them as I started following ef just because of Chihiro.

I'd like to go over my reasoning of Hiro. At first it seemed to me that he started manga because the twins were interested in it and it did appear to me that he enjoyed their praise. Now I would have left it at that until his reaction over Miyako's praise and for some reason it left me with the feeling that praise was why he continued it and that the lack of it from Kei and Chihiro was one of the things missing in his life and Miya is filling it. Kei nowadays in my mind seems to go on more about studying (and most probably trying to kill him with her cooking), then she did as a child.

I do get your point about Kei's feelings, it is just I don't like how she is acting over them. I just wish she would try to do something more positive then silently punish herself.

Finally I do believe that Renji and Chihiro will have something more then writing the story as they seemed to have such a nice feeling as a couple before that was brought up. And with writing stories there is nothing stopping them from doing another. What does worry me is if the current story fails.... Especially since we don't really know Chihiro's goals for it. Does she just want to complete a story? Does she want it published?

[Zippicus]

Overall I like this show. The artwork, music, and VA's are all good. The only real problem I have with the show is the amnesia thing. Memory disorders are so overused in anime plots that I've taken to playing the "Who's the character with the memory disorder game" whenever a new anime comes out. At least they're handling it in an interesting way. And to be honest with the title being what it is it's pretty much a given that at least one person is going to have some kind of memory disorder.

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by Zippicus

Overall I like this show. The artwork, music, and VA's are all good. The only real problem I have with the show is the amnesia thing. Memory disorders are so overused in anime plots that I've taken to playing the "Who's the character with the memory disorder game" whenever a new anime comes out. At least they're handling it in an interesting way. And to be honest with the title being what it is it's pretty much a given that at least one person is going to have some kind of memory disorder.

Most of the times I end up thinking how the *bleep* did you forget that event/face, and it generally involves one person remembering and the other having a gold fish for a brain. At least with Chihiro we get the reason at the beginning and not only is it very plausible, but it is played out in such a way that it makes me feel really sad for her.

[guuchan]

There's a reason why Kei so desperately (ah, what a nostalgic word. I believe some people here who browses another forum would know what I mean ) want Hiro to study.

Spoiler for Why Kei wants a mangaka to study?:

Simply because she wants to be with him. As a regular student, she's planning to continue her studies, and she wants him to at least finish high school. If he drops out, that means the distance between them will be pulled away even farther, since they will live in two totally different worlds without a common place.

By the way, somehow I have yet to figure out the password to the diary of this episode. Has anyone found out yet?

[FlareKnight]

Don't think the praise thing is too serious a deal. I mean when your doing something that has a result like a manga you obviously want to know how people feel about it. Once you've finished and its out there it's almost like a representation of yourself, something you poured your heart into that is being judged. If someone you respect the opinion of doesn't like it then it's a shot to you. Everyone likes the people they know to praise a good job. I agree he was started up by their reactions, but has turned it into his own path.

If it was simply looking for praise then during the period between Kei and Chihiro's praise and Miyako's appearance. When Kei wasn't happy with what was putting himself through then he would've quit. She wasn't going to tell him to give it up, but she wasn't actively praising him either. I think he's doing it because he's good at it and enjoys what he's doing and putting out there. Of course I only played music not written or drawn so I may have mistaken Hiro's feelings on it.

In terms of Renji and Chihiro I"m sure they will have a strong bond even after the book is finished. The growing they should do during the effort will bring them closer together. I'm not sure Chihiro has even considered what to do with the story after it's finished. Having a goal so difficult to complete you probably haven't thought about 'what's next'.

[Sorrow-K]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

I'd like to go over my reasoning of Hiro. At first it seemed to me that he started manga because the twins were interested in it and it did appear to me that he enjoyed their praise. Now I would have left it at that until his reaction over Miyako's praise and for some reason it left me with the feeling that praise was why he continued it and that the lack of it from Kei and Chihiro was one of the things missing in his life and Miya is filling it. Kei nowadays in my mind seems to go on more about studying (and most probably trying to kill him with her cooking), then she did as a child.

I still don't think praise is Hiro's sole motivator. It might have started him, but there has to be more than that to it, since if he lacked the passion for it, he'd have stopped doing it long ago. Manga is hard work, I'd imagine, and I just can't see praise and money being the only motivators... the passion and having a creative outlet have to play a major role, else I can't see how it'd work.

But I'm sure Hiro appreciates the praise from Miyako now. But I think there's much more to their relationship than that. I think she gives him something outside of manga... she's exciting and full of life, and I think that makes a neat counter to his own life where he isolates himself for long periods of time in a dull environment so he create, even if it means wearing himself to the bone. And she understands him, as well, as evidenced by this latest ep.

Nonetheless, I don't think it's right to scoff at someone who dedicates their self to creative art... well, unless they suck at it, but that's a different story.

Ep 5

This love triangle continues to become more and more interesting, we continue to find out more and more about all of these characters, and the Renji x Chihiro relationship is going forward while still dealing with some interesting issues. In other words, everything is going in the right direction, and remains really engrossing. I have almost no complaints about this show, it really is great so far.

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by Sorrow-K

Nonetheless, I don't think it's right to scoff at someone who dedicates their self to creative art... well, unless they suck at it, but that's a different story.

Ah I wasn't scoffing Hiro as such, I was scoffing at the statement of him being mature. I raised the issue that he works till the point he has tennis elbow in his wrist. Now any professional would know know to preserve their tools. Maturity would be the ability to see past finishing for that single deadline. What is the use if he gets glory for the next few years and ends up crippling his wrist? If that happens, an education would give him more options. That is maturity. Don't get me wrong I admire people who work hard and are able to create something. What I feel is a shame is when someone tunnels for a goal and misses it or even worse they burn out physically or mentally.

The point about him setting on his career based on praise is the feeling I get from the scenes we have currently seen. The reason why is I just don't feel like he is enjoying himself at all. It seems like life is a chore for him.

[Skyfall]

Ah, but the thing is - he is supporting himself, and we already know he is cutting it tight on his expenses by the end of the month. It is not like he can afford to lessen the work load. Getting another job is an option, but that would require of him doing something he perhaps doesn't like to do. For whatever initial reasons, he likes to draw manga. If he were doing it for personal praise i think he would have quit long ago, seeing Kei is bitching about everything he does instead of offering a nice word.

Just because working himself to the bone is the only option he has right now doesn't mean he is immature.

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by Skyfall

Just because working himself to the bone is the only option he has right now doesn't mean he is immature.

Even in the context of how Miya described how he is mature because he is working so hard he is hurting himself? I could never see how self harm can equal maturity, especially since he isn't in a situation where not working as hard as he is would equal life or death.

For example has he tried to reconcile with his father? Of course we haven't seen any of these scenes, or been given any info at all, but what stops him getting living expenses off his father? I'm pretty sure even in Japan the father is legally obliged to support him until he is 18. If he is refusing to because of pride, is that a sign of maturity?

Lets change the scenario slightly, lets say that he is prostituting his body out so he can live on his own would that be a sign of maturity?

End of the day he is sacrificing a part of his body which he may never get back and the worst thing about it is that part of his body is central to his current and probable future.

[FlareKnight]

Even Hiro said that the wrist problems is a hazard of the craft. Safe to say there are plenty in that field who have to deal with the issue. Plenty of career paths that have health hazards that accompany them. It's like hockey players and groin injuries. There are just career paths that come with their inherent risks.

Don't think it's a fitting analogy unless prostitution is legal in Japan. Certainly a risky path, though of a higher degree and the whole going to prison thing. Which I don't think happens if you draw manga in Japan. First calling the guy immature and now a prostitute .

In terms of his father if we don't know what's going on there it's just really out there speculation. You can't possibly hold something on Hiro that can't currently be substantiated. For all we know he has already tried reconciliation and his father stubbornly refused making him the immature one. Maybe he's dead, maybe his family went bankrupt and committed suicide, I have no idea.

If he can't get through the month without working I'd call starving a life or death situation. Unless he wants to go around asking everyone for food (Kei=A life or death situation) he's got to do what he can. Maybe his wrist would be better off if he wasn't drawing then spending time in a classroom writing notes.

Do think having a backup plan in an education would probably be a good idea. But I don't think it impacts his maturity to make a decision on his career and work towards that.

[grey_moon]

But the issue is he isn't even 18 and is suffering from damage to his wrist so that he can't even use chopsticks properly. That is not a normal level of damage in my opinion.

The prostitution allagey was a reference on not selling his skill/work, but selling a part of his body in the form of it could cost him use of his wrist. Basically why I think it isn't mature is because he is sacrificing his future in drawing and with his current life style could leave him with nothing.

It doesn't take much to wreck havok to an artist, I was pretty good as a child and came top of my art classes until I dislocated my right thumb when I was 15. I could never hold a pencil properly again as a part of the cartilage slipped and even now when I try to draw for extended periods of time my thumb hurts like a bugger.

I guess everyone has their own points of view, but personally if I do enjoy doing something I would rather make sure I was able to do it until I want to give up, rather then cripple myself in the first few years and not be able to do it again.

[Deathkillz]

I dont see how hiro working hard means that he is immature...well if he enjoys doing what he does and also is making a living out of it. what is immature though is his usual habits towards studying. having a hobby/job is fine but if it affects his studies that much so that he skips class, that really isnt a mature thing to do - especially when his job doesnt 100% guarantee him food on the table in the future (so what will happen if he quits school and a few years down the line his wrist gives up? pretty screwed without any form of qualification right?). problem here is he isnt looking at the long term and what might happen if his manga career takes a turn for the worse.

[Kaoru Chujo]

I'm not making any claims that Hiro and Miya are totally mature. I mean, I think Hiro is mature in his responsibility to his craft and to supporting himself from it, and Miya is mature in some of her perceptions. But she's just having fun, and he is actually harming himself. Getting carpal tunnel syndrome (if that's what it is) so young can't be good. But I guess he feels he has no alternative, since he has to make a living somehow.

But anyway, I like just about every character here: Chihiro, Miya, Kei, Renji, Hiro, Kyosuke. Their feelings and actions all make sense to me, whether or not they are the wisest in any particular circumstance. I do feel sorry for Kyosuke's present girl friend, but I can still understand his feelings somehow. I think that's a plus for the script.

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by Deathkillz

I dont see how hiro working hard means that he is immature...well if he enjoys doing what he does and also is making a living out of it. what is immature though is his usual habits towards studying. having a hobby/job is fine but if it affects his studies that much so that he skips class, that really isnt a mature thing to do - especially when his job doesnt 100% guarantee him food on the table in the future (so what will happen if he quits school and a few years down the line his wrist gives up? pretty screwed without any form of qualification right?). problem here is he isnt looking at the long term and what might happen if his manga career takes a turn for the worse.

The bold bit is exactly what I've been trying to say!!!!

[guuchan]

Lol, that sounds like something coming from a typical Asian parent. "You should study, you should finish school. Hobbies are hobbies, they can't support your life." If everyone goes by that, then there won't be musicians, actors/actresses, sportmen, etc., in this world. A lot of them start out their careers early, even if that means dropping out of school. As Miyako pointed out, their worlds are not easy ones. You can't just come and go whenever you want. If you have the talent, the earlier you start on it (e.g. start practicing piano 8 hours a day when you're still a child, start appearing in CMs at a young age), the higher the chance you will succeed in the career.

Of course, a lot of people failed in the process while pursuing their dreams, but that's the risk everyone needs to take. Just as Miyako asked Kei: "Will his future be assured as long as he goes to school?" We know there're plenty of college graduates out there who are unemployed or working for jobs that don't require their education qualification at all (e.g. driving taxi, working in restaurants, etc. Yes, they happen ALOT, especially in Asia). Kei couldn't answer her question. Can you?

[grey_moon]

*sigh* there is a huge difference between working hard for your dreams and hurting your self for your dreams. You can't ignore the fact that Hiro is hurting himself and more importantly putting the long term future of his dreams at risk.

My fiance is a piano teacher and she has students who on average start when they are 4 years old. She has no issues with that, but one of them worked himself to a point that he had a mental breakdown. She desperately tried to get him to calm down and to try to enjoy it more and not focus so much, she even tried to get the parents to help him understand too. It took him to have a full blown break down before they understood what was happening to their child. Even now after he had to drop out for a year she still is concerned. He now is on medication, and if put in a stressful situation develops a noticeable twitch which does affect his playing. There is a fine line between working hard and self destruction and maturity is recognising that.

Lets consider that Hiro lives alone and that being a sign of maturity... Well if I ignore the fact that he is hurting himself, I would consider it a sign of maturity that he works and pays for his own rent. But since he seems to live off cup ramen that is a sign of not being mature. His life style will probably lead him into an early grave before his wrist gives out tbh.

[Deathkillz]

Originally Posted by guuchan

Lol, that sounds like something coming from a typical Asian parent. "You should study, you should finish school. Hobbies are hobbies, they can't support your life." If everyone goes by that, then there won't be musicians, actors/actresses, sportmen, etc., in this world. A lot of them start out their careers early, even if that means dropping out of school.

lol and unfortunatly ive experienced that from my parents everyday so i know full well the feeling of it

on the flip side you could also look at the amount of people who end up having a career in something commercial that do in fact have a pretty high qualifications. going to school isnt meant to stop you from your hobbies, it is there to help imo but if hiro finds it more of a nusiance than a help ofc he is free to quit...it just wont be the smartest idea thats all.

its more common in the old days to be able to be successful even without going to higher education but now it is more of a requirement if are looking for a more stable future.

a lot of jobs do not require those level of educations though but it wont guarentee that hiro will have a happy time doing them if his manga career fails. i guess short term happiness has to be balanced with long term happiness for this case.

[guuchan]

You guys have overlooked something though, something crucial. We're not talking about a guy who's killing himself to attain his dream, but someone who has paid a cost to achieve his dream. Remember he already made quite a name of himself (out of his pen name) --- Shindou Nagi, a mangaka who has work being serialized in a magazine. He's not a wannabe, not a doujinshi drawer, but someone whose work appears regularly in a magazine. That's quite an achievement already. The tendonitis he's suffering from is the cost he paid for it, but he already got his reward. The reason why he's not doing well financially is none other than school --- he still needs to take care of his schoolwork, more or less, and the tuition fee.

In other words, we're not talking about someone who's trying to reach his dream, but someone who is already living his dream. Now he's just trying to survive and further his success in the manga drawing world.

[serenade_beta]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

Spoiler for thoughts of epi5:

I'm sure that Kei doesn't blame her (if should remember enough after the accident to do so).

>_<

You do mean Chihiro, right? Not Kei?

Originally Posted by guuchan

You guys have overlooked something though, something crucial. We're not talking about a guy who's killing himself to attain his dream, but someone who has paid a cost to achieve his dream. Remember he already made quite a name of himself (out of his pen name) --- Shindou Nagi, a mangaka who has work being serialized in a magazine. He's not a wannabe, not a doujinshi drawer, but someone whose work appears regularly in a magazine. That's quite an achievement already. The tendonitis he's suffering from is the cost he paid for it, but he already got his reward. The reason why he's not doing well financially is none other than school --- he still needs to take care of his schoolwork, more or less, and the tuition fee.

In other words, we're not talking about someone who's trying to reach his dream, but someone who is already living his dream. Now he's just trying to survive and further his success in the manga drawing world.

The cost could kill him. It's a great achievement, but I wouldn't blame school for the reason he's suffering. From what I gather, manga artists don't all exactly live great lives in the first place.

He's still in school and he's got tendonitis... Brilliant reward for a life where he survives on Cup Ramen. <-- Sarcasm