2012-01-25, 08:29 | Link #21 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Age: 38
|
Just use the Report button and the mods/admins will look into it.
Quote:
__________________
|
|
2012-01-25, 08:29 | Link #22 | |
sleepyhead
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: event horizon
|
Quote:
And some of you who reponded aren't exactly angels yourselves; so let's not go there.
__________________
|
|
2012-01-25, 08:33 | Link #23 | ||
On a mission
Author
|
Quote:
And like I said before. If it doesn't justify being rediscussed per episode, then it's a cyclical topic that can be subject to moderation if the poster is deliberately doing it. And I will ask you. What's the point of developing its own thread? Why does it deserve its own thread. So people with like minds can just agree with each other? Not much of a point there. Shall we separate every single episode thread into "Fluff" and "srs bzness" threads? Because that would be what it ends up. And as I've already stated before. Negative only threads cannot work alone. There are already many of those, and they all are very low content. It's where the praise clashes with the bashing where readers can view the input and make the decision for themselves that matters. It shouldn't be the place of anyone else to dictate what to think, or where to organize it. Quote:
I consider myself a pretty moderate poster. I'm sure not everyone thinks that. I'm not sure what the mods would think. I don't want to know, tbh. I should be able to post my thoughts wherever I want as long as it is on topic, without fear that I'll be whisked away because the mods have decided I am too good and move me up to Masters Hater League thread while demoting someone who disagrees with me to Platinum Fan League thread. Hmm... Automated Matchmaking for forum debates sounds interesting. I just made too many negative posts, now I've been moved out of my division. Overall, I can't see how this system will work. That would require either posters to self-mod themselves in the right spot, and let's be honest-- everyone THINKS they are reasonable and moderate. And so we have to leave it up to the mods, and break the thread's cohesion when posts are being moved around. And exactly how does someone stirring a topic gain power? They can spam the thread? That's moddable? They keep trying to stir the discussion on the rail? Well, nothing an ignore list can handle. Someone outspoken has as much power as you give them.
__________________
|
||
2012-01-25, 08:41 | Link #24 | |
reading #hikaributts
Join Date: Feb 2009
|
Quote:
Anyways seeing that you also have a neutral view on this, then i would say that the arguments on the first page for this petition are definitely not neutral at all and are shortly summarized as this: - the majority of the people (in your case: fans) have no interests in reading the rants, so rants are off topic in their opinion. - rants polarizes the discussion and leads to possible flame wars or something else. - there is no point in complaining, because a show is what it is. - rants are insulting to the fanbase All of these arguments simply suggests that the fans can't accept criticism and that haters should stay out of their topic and rant somewhere else (like in your suggestion a separate topic or doing that in blogs).That's sounds like pure censorship to me. You claim not to target critics or discussion on the flaws, but your example of using Reckoner actually says otherwise. His rant was purely based on his critical view of the flaws of that episode and the serie itself. Also how can you start such a biased petition, while you are actually neutral on this? Last edited by hyl; 2012-01-25 at 08:52. |
|
2012-01-25, 09:01 | Link #25 | |
Blooming on the mountain
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Deep in their roots, all flowers keep the light....
|
With absolutely no offense or disrespect intended, to be honest it seems what the OP is essentially asking for is some kind of "underground storage chamber for self-flagellation" where people can go to deliberately stir the pot, "entrollificate", or be as rude and nasty as they want with each other. Or something similar to that....
I have been on other forums where they have such "places" as this and where it may "fit", but I think that it would not work here at animesuki ... as EroKing rightly pointed out, it says in the rules that: Quote:
To create a separate space where people can go and behave in such a way that goes against those principles and/or the atmosphere in general would be a disservice to the ... err ... ambiance (?) of the forum community as a whole, even if it were (no, especially if it were!) an area that the mods would turn more of a blind eye to % wise. Between the report button, using the steps Archon_Wing spelled out early on in the thread, and above all everyone making individual efforts to set a better personal example would be the best methods for "fire prevention" (or whatever someone might want to call it) in my opinion....
__________________
|
|
2012-01-25, 10:12 | Link #26 | |
Princess or Plunderer?
Join Date: May 2009
Location: the Philippines
|
Quote:
In fact, it even has the advantage of anonymity.
__________________
|
|
2012-01-25, 10:23 | Link #27 |
Senior Member
Author
|
While I respect the AS member who started this thread, I largely disagree with him on what he is proposing, and I think it's important for me to elaborate why, because I think it touches on key philosophical differences on how some of us view Anime Suki as a whole. Discussing such differences on how AS members view Anime Suki is probably good for this site and its community, so that we can all have a better understanding of what each of us wants this site to be.
Now my impression is that felix's view on Anime Suki is that series threads and series subforums are first and foremost for fans of those respective series. Now if I agreed with felix's view here, I might fully agree with what he's proposing in this thread. However, I don't agree with felix's view here. My view, which I think is shared by a lot of members on this site (even if it's only at an implicit level), is very different. I think that the entirety of Anime Suki (including all of its series threads and series subforums) are for all anime fans who are members here, not just fans of one specific series. Let me elaborate on what precisely I mean by this. The Ano Natsu series thread isn't just for fans of Ano Natsu in particular. It's for all anime fans who are members of the AS community. A lot of us here on this site approach anime the same way that movie aficionados approach movies. In other words, we watch a lot of different anime titles as we want to see a full range of what the anime world has to offer. We often like to compare and contrast one anime to another. We are moreso fans of anime as a whole (as a genre, or a medium) than fans of specific shows. That's not to say that we don't have our favorite shows, but rather that we don't focus most of our time on just a handful of titles that we like. Now just as movie aficionados don't like every movie that they end up watching, a lot of us anime aficionados don't like every anime we end up watching. But because we're anime aficionados, we're going to watch a lot of different anime shows, especially ones that gain a lot of attention from the anime fan community as a whole. And also because we're anime aficionados, we're going to give most anime shows we watch at least the good 'ol three episode try. So that means that for an anime aficionado on this site that is deeply disappointed by a particular show, you'll probably see at least a few weeks of him or her heavily critiquing the show (Nostalgia Critic style, in some cases ). Now I think it's reasonable to expect a person who's been consistently hating a show since Episode 1 or 2 to drop the show at some point. At some point, continuing to stick around and heavily critique a show week-by-week, on a forum like this one, does seem a bit masochistic and counterproductive to good conversations (since there's only so many times you can raise the same criticisms over and over again before they start to seem stale). But this point is well after a mere three episodes, and that's all we're at so far in Ano Natsu. Ultimately, this sort of consistent week-by-week heavy critiquing almost always sorts itself out (with one exception, which I'll get to in a bit). Eventually, people will drop shows that they are consistently disliking/hating (key example given the specific example raised by felix in the OP: Reckoner is no longer watching Guilty Crown to the best of my knowledge), leaving only fans of that particular show left posting on it. I would argue that this can create a very different problem of "all-praise all-the-time" that's not terribly more useful than all-criticism all-the-time, but I digress. The one exception to this is when you have a viewer who was enjoying the show a lot for a decent string of episodes, but then the show made a big change mid-stream, and the viewer who was really liking the show before that shift is very displeased with that shift. When that happens, the show's fanbase as a whole is likely to get polarized (I've seen this with Shakugan no Shana, Haruhi 2009, Ore no Imouto, Hanasaku Iroha, and a few other shows), and that's just the way it is. A show making a big content/tonal/artistic shift will inevitably have this result. If I'm watching a show for the action scenes and you're watching the same show for the dialogue, and suddenly its 50/50 ratio between the two elements shifts to almost nothing but dialogue, it's only normal that I'm now very displeased with the show whereas you're still loving it since you're getting more of what you love about it. So when shifts like this happen, you're going to get weekly critical posts right to the bitter end, as people have already invested a lot of time in a show that they thought they were going to like and were in fact liking for a long time. Because these people invested a lot of time in a show, I think they have a right to see it through to the end, and continue to voice their displeasure with whatever the big shift was (i.e. a lot more fanservice than before, a lot less action scenes than before, the artwork gets K-Onified, Kyon can't get out of that blasted time loop, etc...). So, that's my overall take on the issue. I'd love to know what my fellow AS members think of it.
__________________
Last edited by Triple_R; 2012-01-25 at 10:48. |
2012-01-25, 10:32 | Link #28 | ||||||||||||
sleepyhead
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: event horizon
|
Quote:
Spoiler for Quotes:
He's also addressing the completely wrong people about it. If I want to know what's wrong with the industry this year, or whats the worst anime of who knows when I would go find the appropriate thread in General Anime. The reason why anyone goes to the series thread is to find what's good about a show, what the show is about, and what people are discussing. This is essentially going and talking about your love of meet products in the vegetarian convention or talking about manga/novels in the anime-only discussion. It's just with out purpose and can only go wrong. What could possibly be the "good" result of such posts? People start agreeing with him and turn the thread into a ranting archive: "the 1001 things wrong with series XXX"? I can't think of any good thing that would come of it, and past incidents would indicate nothing good comes of it; you just can't hope for proper discussion in that context on that topic. At best it's just annoying. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
If they were replies to other people, then yes. But they aren't. They're just this sansationalist views that rival the news media. If they can justify their existance, they can justify their existance in another thread; and everyone would be better off (including the people posting them). Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
If a topic of religion is bad, then talking about the topic of religion in some other thread is also bad.Esentially what you're implying is that somehow, injecting a flame topic in normal topic is okey? even though if it had a thread it would have to be closed imediatly. How exactly does that make any sense. Quote:
And about people forming their own views. I went to the thread in the example only to find the signs of war brewing. I don't feel informed at all, and I don't feel welcome, nor do I feel like I want to waste my time going to a thread to listen to people crying. Also, I don't see how people trying really really damn hard to insert into my head every possible way a show could be wrong and how I need to despise it is constructive and/or useful to the topic. The series topic I mean. Quote:
Those of us that want to actually discuss things or debate flaws and not re-iterrate or drive people into hating everything about a show then don't have to suffer the silly restrictions, locks and ban-warnings that inevitably happen. And also don't have to suffer the accusations by fellow fans of "being haters" and things like that because of other people trying to stir up shit. It's so simple. Quote:
You also seem to misunderstand something. I'm not suggesting an anology to the Spoiler Policy. YOU would not get banned from the topic! Only over the top rants would; and there would be no consequences, they would just be moved/removed (NO INFRACTIONS). So basically you post a rant. It gets moved to another topic or removed. You are free to try again and be more subtle. Fail and it gets removed again, and you can try again, etc. Nobody gets angry, the topic stays nice and friendly. Everyone is free to discuss everything with out the need of locks, or censoring certain topics or useless meta debaes. Win-Win. How is this not in your favor. Tell me why this is bad? Why do you need to have the right to incide flame wars?? Why is that the only way to have a discussion or discuss those topics. Quote:
I'm personally not really moved by these shallow accusation and labels you are trying to throw at me as a person in hopes of bypassing what the petition is actually saying. I even expected some them; hence the options in the poll. [edit] @Triple_R Well. I agree with your view, but the petition is mostly focusing on the physical problem, rather then the philosophical problem. Thread locks and things like this: Quote:
__________________
Last edited by felix; 2012-01-25 at 10:58. |
||||||||||||
2012-01-25, 10:48 | Link #29 | |
is this so?
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Gradius Home World
|
Quote:
How is everyone "free to discuss everything" when people aren't allowed to complain on episodes they didn't like? Having a post removed again and again (simply because it is a rant) until it becomes acceptable? That's too much censorship.
__________________
Last edited by Liddo-kun; 2012-01-25 at 11:11. |
|
2012-01-25, 11:11 | Link #30 | |
sleepyhead
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: event horizon
|
How is people simply complaining a "discussion"? I can see it the other way, but I dunno about simply complaing being a discussion by default. A complain doesn't imply reason, judgement or otherwise from the person complaining. It's no different then calling whining a discussion.
Maybe I'm misreading your post and by complain you mean something else entirely? If you want to complain then make it a discussion. Which means: you are not just gonna shit on the series in the process or make generic broad claims that could just as well apply to anything, or throw some generic labels and sly remakrs (ie. moe, childish, etc)... and most importantly if your "discussion" doesn't get off the ground you won't constantly repeat it over and over if you have nothing to add to your previous post. And if you have something to add, obviously you wouldn't repeat the previous points. A discussion can have some complaining in it, sure. But a complaint =/= discussion. I can even give you a sign of when its wrong: if you can't even name what the "best part about it" is in your arguments, ie. "it is bad, because the best part about it is XXX" then you aren't discussing or assesing or judging anything but simply throwing out labels with out actual arguments. Of course that's just an example, but ideally there should be some comparison to something and not just ranting for the sake of ranting and venting. Quote:
Currently in the examples I gave you, you either can't post, or are severly punished for it. Also, you get to suffer countless accusations from other posters. I would rather have my posts removed and have to rephrase them if by chance I was out of line then deal with the awkwardness of the current system.
__________________
|
|
2012-01-25, 11:15 | Link #31 | ||||||||
reading #hikaributts
Join Date: Feb 2009
|
Quote:
Also he never actually addressed the issue of the anime industry, but just the combination of the genres seem to work against the serie and the fact that this serie failed to live up to his expectations based on it's genre. Thus making it an unenjoyable show for him. So i don't think he was addressing the flaws of the shows in the wrong topic Quote:
Quote:
If lot's of people start agreeing with him, then this show probably has those problems. Then there is a point in discussing this. This annoyance that you are talking about seems to be some kind of lack of tolerance against criticism for the show. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by hyl; 2012-01-25 at 11:26. |
||||||||
2012-01-25, 11:26 | Link #32 |
sleepyhead
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: event horizon
|
I don't see the problem. Like I said if people thought it was out of line then I'd rather have them removed and have to rephrase them. If you think I was reponsible for the locks and other things and I know some people would point the finger at them then all the better example: YES I would rather have to rephrase then deal with the meta discussion and/or accusations.
I don't see the problem. I did not go to the thread to preach my views. I went to share them. If I shared them in a way that stirred up shit then I more then willing to rephrase them. What's the problem here!? Surely it's not a issue for the people who had a problem with my views if they are removed and I rephrase them. Also, on the me being neutral thing, please make up your mind! Are you accusing me of being neutral on the petition or the GC thread? I already told you, I refused to take sides on GC, so to this day I am neutral on GC, and I /sign'ed on the petition. You keep going from one to the other and getting confused.
__________________
|
2012-01-25, 11:29 | Link #33 | |
reading #hikaributts
Join Date: Feb 2009
|
Quote:
So you are saying that you have no problems with the rants that you have posted about guilty crown, while you find it unacceptable that others like reckoner rants about Ano Natsu? Oh, by the way your rants on guilty crown did stir up a few pages of discussion. |
|
2012-01-25, 11:37 | Link #36 |
Lost in my dreams...
Join Date: Jun 2006
Age: 37
|
I'm sure all of us have been in the situation where someone dismisses (or downright dislikes) the same positive qualities of a show that makes us love it, and remember the bitter feeling said opinion can leave behind. Someone seeing negatives where you see positives can be a tough negotiation table to sit around indeed.
However, that is not a reason to essentially "ban" negative opinions on series altogether. AnimeSuki is a discussion forum (I'm sure you've heard that one before), and we welcome all opinions on a subject, be them agreeable or disagreeable with the subject at hand, so long as said opinions are expressed with the same general courtesy we demand from all communication done on the forum. That doesn't mean everything is allowed either, and if someone seems to be posting with an only goal to aggravate the discussion at hand, feel free to report said posts - we will look in to it, as always, and if we indeed can determine the behavior and posting pattern as such, we will take action against it. The mere fact of having a continuously low opinion on something doesn't necessarily amount to what I described above (which would essentially be trolling) however, nor does seeing flaws where an other sees quality (a subjective thing by all means) make said stance a less legit one. Which is why any such potential cases are to be reviewed on a case-by-case basis, rather than have global policies implemented to discourage negative opinions over something in general, never mind actually combating them. This, regretfully, means that you are prone to meet opinions that run counter to your own, heavily even. Such is the nature of online communication and sharing of opinions, and the hard part to realize is that said opinions aren't any more "wrong" or "improper" than your own. While we can only dream of a day where all anime is a universal masterpiece that appeals to everyone and summons only positive response, sadly we are not there yet - and as such, have to live with stances that cross ours on an open discussion floor. Fansites exist there for a reason - to serve as a gathering place for people who share the same enthusiasm on the specific subject at question. AnimeSuki, however, is not a fansite. It is a discussion forum that unifies people by our overall interest in anime, not out of agreement on any specific anime at hand. And while truly enjoying a show one feels inclined to post about can be seen as a good trait indeed, that isn't a requirement for participating in the conversation here, nor is it a measure we would ever segregate members by. Which is why artificial barriers for entry in a discussion will not exist on AnimeSuki, it runs counter to the very idea of this site being an umbrella where all anime fans can gather under. I'm sorry that some pushing and poking happens occasionally, but that doesn't mean we will prevent people from trying to wrestle their own spot under the overall cover altogether, based on a X level of devotion criteria. Indeed, polarized opinions or even polarized fanbases happen, but their entire separation is not on the table. Never mind to the extremes of having separate threads for both [Positive] and [Negative] opinions, that is, frankly, a fairly ridiculous idea and would serve as a festering ground for mutual animosity and even bigger rifts between said opinions, not to mention a stage ripe for trolling by the other "side". I apologize if that's not what some would want to hear, but the purpose of AnimeSuki is not to safeguard you against opinions that you wouldn't wish to hear. Fansites are there for that reason, but the doors of AnimeSuki are open to everyone (at first), not just the dedicated fans of a series. Turning some form of an opinion into an official second class citizen won't happen. TL;DR: If there seems to be an issue brewing, report it, and it will be dealt with to the best of our abilities. I'm sorry if the forum's staff sometimes doesn't see things completely your way, but sadly we have yet to find a way to please everyone (though we are trying!), and have our own standards we adhere to, which has shaped AnimeSuki in to what it is today. I thank everyone for posting their opinions on the subject, but I'm afraid the thread is going to be closed - the original proposal simply isn't on the discussion table.
__________________
Last edited by Skyfall; 2012-01-25 at 12:11. |
2012-01-25, 11:43 | Link #37 |
Anxious bookseller
Author
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Shibuya Psychic Research
|
Members have the right to post there views about series they like and don't like. As long as the post follows the rules there is no set rule saying you "must like said show to post in this thread." Obviously when someone crosses the line into flaming, baiting and what not that is against the rules then a mod will step in. This is why we have a Report button since mods can't be everywhere.
If you don't like someone's repeated opinion on a show, we also have the Ignore feature. This is a discussion community. All types of discussion are welcome, positive and negative again as long as it follows the rules. Banning any type of negative discussion wouldn't progress this community since it's part of life. If you don't like it, again use the ignore feature. If you think it goes beyond whats allowed, report it and let the mods handle it. Edit: Ninja'd by Sky!
__________________
|
Tags |
petition |
|
|