[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by RandomUser

I thought that in EP3 the culprit was Sayo and not Eva, maybe I'm mistaken, but I managed to solve every chapter using Sayo as the culprit, so I don't think that EP3 was written by someone who belived Eva to be the culprit.

In the EP8 manga it is revealed that it is that way.

Spoiler:

It is revealed that Tohya wrote Banquet as a way to indict Ushiromiya Eva, whom he believed to be the culprit of the Rokkenjima mass murder, due to a coincidence that occured on the island.

EP3 as a complete concept is more complicated than that though, and in a way you are right that it is possible to see Sayo as the culprit of all these murders, since they were all murders that she planned and described in her drafts, and were apparently also mentioned in CotGW. And of course it is true that one of the murders can only be committed by Sayo.

By the way, I'm also trying to solve every chapter using Kyrie and Rudolf as culprits, I managed to do that with EP1, but that means that I'm reading the mysteries without love?

Well, basically their not meant to be solved that way, since EP1 and 2 were written pre-incident and EP3, 4 and 5 were written before their author was aware of the full truth.

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

Fair enough, and thanks for the explanation. Would you say that it's neccicary to read the manga, or would recommend it even after reading the VN?

I would say it is necessary to read the manga to get a complete idea of what Ryukishi actually wanted to write. Especially since the VN version of EP8 is a horrible mess of (mostly) directing and editing mistakes. The biggest flaw of the EP8 VN is that it made me (and several other readers) hate Ange, which is the opposite of what you are supposed to do.
The EP8 manga rectifies a lot of these mistakes, so (even though you miss out on a few really awesome OST tracks), listen to them some other way and read the manga, is my recommendation.

And a bit off my original topic but what is your opinion on Rosa, she was an awesomely complicated character who can be argued as good or bad. People argue that she doesn't love Maria but after episode 2 I'm very sure that that isn't the case.

Like her siblings she is a horrible person, but I hold her a little less responsible, because she was the youngest and got the most abuse out of the 4. Like shown in the EP8 manga, a lot of her horrible deeds towards Maria were a subconscious repetition of what her siblings did to her.
It is clear that she does love Maria dearly, or she wouldn't try to cling to her so much. The problem is, she was never taught to properly give and receive love. Also her different encounters with loss broke her to a degree where I just have to feel pity for her.

[Mr. Dent]

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

Fair enough, and thanks for the explanation. Would you say that it's neccicary to read the manga, or would recommend it even after reading the VN? I assumed the Manga only added in very few new things from the VN I didn't know they had grand explanations for things. And about Rudolf and Kyrie, I did notice that they were never the sacrifices for the second twilight, further proving your point

And a bit off my original topic but what is your opinion on Rosa, she was an awesomely complicated character who can be argued as good or bad. People argue that she doesn't love Maria but after episode 2 I'm very sure that that isn't the case.

Well, for the most part, the manga is an incredibly faithful adaptation, but the biggest changes begin during Will's answer session at the end of EP7, and continue throughout 8. This new content is all things that you can gather from scrutinizing the Visual Novel, but the manga puts them to good use, and ultimately the manga's EP8 is far more cohesive and satisfying than the VN's.

As for Rosa, as the son of a jilted single mother, Rosa's character hit really close to home. That's not a bad thing, though, that's a sign that, as an author, Ryukishi knows what he's talking about. There's no doubt that Rosa loves Maria in my mind. However, it's very stressful to try and raise a child, especially one who's as obstinate as Maria. A lot of Rosa's actions, especially forgetting about promises and lying to go on dates, are fairly common, and that's just part of becoming a parent when you're not quite ready or fit to be one. Meanwhile, her sudden fits of fury at Maria seem to be the product of her upbringing. I think she loves Maria, I really do, but I don't think she was ready to be a single mother.

[Mali]

Hi I would ask something from a readers view:
Apparently Lambda appeared before Sayo in Confession I saw from pics.
I thought Bernkastel AND Lambda were character's made by Iku because they based on Higurashi characters... Coincedence? I always thought EP1's and 2's Teaparty and ??? were not written by Sayo but by Tohya/Iku- I stay with this viewpoint.
So I came with that idea that Iku is a Rika/Bernkastel who survived the GHD who decided to become a new one - dividing into Featherine and Bernkastel- and wrote Higurashi (not Akasaka), and after meeting Battler - she felt he's a soulmate who escaped endless kakeras like her- , she helped him to write Umineko and influenced him.

I recall the question: Is Lambda the character Sayo or Iku/Tohya thought of?

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

Yeah, after reading your post a few times and thinking about it I will admit I was biased towards Rudolf because I wanted him to have something good about him, looking for a miracle I guess, that and I loved his character. But morally speaking yeah he was as bad as some of the witches. arguably worse.

Rudolf had something good about him. The problem is his own weakness lead him away from his best sides.
To quote the Devil's advocate:

You know, it's not that you didn't care for Mary Ann, Kevin. It's just that you were a little bit more involved with someone else: yourself.

Rudolf, Rosa, Eva, Krauss... they're all more involved with themselves than their own kids. They love their kids but... not as much as they love themselves.
Krauss and Eva try to manipulate them into becoming what they want them to be (the future family head).
Rosa neglected and abused Maria.
Rudolf neglected Battler... and would be willing to dispose of him if he were to become a problem for him.

They all wanted to be good parents, they all wanted to love their own kids... but they're nursing unhealed wounds and were never taught the right way to love someone.

Like Rosa would like to stop abusing Maria but as temptation strike... well, Rosa strikes Maria as well, Rudolf too would like to manage to have a decent relation with Battler, keep him alive and so on but if he has to chose between himself and Battler he'll chose himself.

They know what they do is wrong... and in this they're a bit like Alice in wonderland...

I give myself very good advice. But I very seldom follow it.

Again their faults get the better of them. Most of the characters of Umineko are presented regretting what they're doing but they simply can't stop doing it.
Rudolf is among them.

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

I do have a few questions now that your brought up Prime worlds and such: What episodes would be considered "canon", to my knowledge episodes 1,2,6, and 7 were "real, while 3,4,5, and 8 were not. Or am I mistaken? I always assumed episode 8 was somewhat canon as it was closing Ange's story. Also would those fantasy world versions of the characters only apply to humans like George? Or can we conclude that the actions taken by witches and furniture were fake as well? Sorry Umineko was pretty confusing without going through it a second time. I still don't know what the hell the Meta World actually is and who can and cannot experience it.

If with real you intend Prime we've bits of Prime in all the episodes:
Ep 1 & 2 more or less showed how the family reached Rokkenjima, how Maria handed a candy to Battler, how Battler and Kanon met in the rose garden, how Maria found a sick rose and how she read Beatrice's letter. Also the backstories are true... even if occasionally are tinged with lies or are misleading (a fact seems to have happened in a certain way but that's only because you miss informations and so you're lead to a certain interpretation)
Ep 3 & 4 contains how Eva is the only survivor to the tragedy, that she got Kinzo's ring and reached Kuwadorian and of course all the info about Prime post tragedy.
Ep 7 Teaparty and Ep 8 (manga version chap 37) contain what happened on the island, from the adults solving the epitaph to the murders starting to how Sayo saved Battler, how Eva survived and got in possession of the ring, how Sayo died. They also have some info post tragedy about how Battler became Tohya and Ange became Yukari.

Originally Posted by RandomUser

I thought that in EP3 the culprit was Sayo and not Eva, maybe I'm mistaken, but I managed to solve every chapter using Sayo as the culprit, so I don't think that EP3 was written by someone who belived Eva to be the culprit.

You aren't the only one. I also solved it with just Sayo and personally I would have preferred that solution, with Eva being used as scapegoat like Natsuhi was in Ep 5, till Eva loses it and shoot at Battler.

But well, I understand how Eva had to be more actively involved as Tohya wanted to pin her as a culprit (though then I don't get why Sayo went and killed George and Nanjo... and possibly Jessica... shouldn't the murders stop if the epitaph was solved?)

Originally Posted by RandomUser

By the way, I'm also trying to solve every chapter using Kyrie and Rudolf as culprits, I managed to do that with EP1, but that means that I'm reading the mysteries without love?

Solving Ep 1 with Rudolf and Kyrie is impossible as the identity of the corpses was confirmed. In short unless you want Rudolf and Kyrie to kill people while being faceless they'll have troubles committing murders... ^_^;

Also Ep 1 & 2 weren't meant to have them as culprits as they were written Pre-tragedy and Sayo couldn't know they would carry out a massacre.
You can try blaming them for the murders of Ep 3-4-5-6 if you want as those were written post massacre...

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

Fair enough, and thanks for the explanation. Would you say that it's neccicary to read the manga, or would recommend it even after reading the VN? I assumed the Manga only added in very few new things from the VN I didn't know they had grand explanations for things. And about Rudolf and Kyrie, I did notice that they were never the sacrifices for the second twilight, further proving your point

The manga added a lot or better explained things or put them into context or corrected mistakes.

For example the Teaparty in Ep 1 works a lot better in the manga than in the VN, considering the ending Ryukishi gave to the story.
In Ep 3 manga version Lambda's threat to Beatrice is much more dramatic in the manga (we see that Beatrice's form almost disappear, almost forcing her to return to her original form... and she ends up sobbing on the ground covering her face).
Ep 5 manga version shows how in the scene 'and then I knew' Battler remembered the promise he made with Sayo and realized she's Beatrice. It also shows that the promise took place on the terrace from with, in Ep 4, Beatrice asked him to remember his sin.
Personally I don't like much how Ep 7 handed Yasu... but Ep 7 shows the solutions beyond Will's words so that they aren't anymore obscure sentences.
Ep 8 basically took care to well depict the characters' feelings and emotions (something that the VN failed making with disastrous results) and added a LOT in terms of explanations of background, tricks and truths. It also changed the fight between Erika and Battler so that it becomes a lot more meaningful.
Ep 8 is the best.
On the other side though occasionally the manga cut some parts from the VN so the best thing is reading both in parallel.
Though I'll say for the first 4 episode the best way to go is to read the VN and then the manga while starting with Chiru I'll read first the manga and then the VN.

(Ep 8 VN version is a mess)

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

And a bit off my original topic but what is your opinion on Rosa, she was an awesomely complicated character who can be argued as good or bad. People argue that she doesn't love Maria but after episode 2 I'm very sure that that isn't the case.

Rosa, like Rudolf is selfish... with the addition she's also deeply traumatized. She was abused much more than Rudolf, she saw Beatrice die, she grew up much more isolated, she doesn't have the support of a partner, she doesn't know how to raise a child, and she suffers a lot more social pressure as back then single mothers weren't apprecciated at all.

She loves Maria madly but... Maria comes after her needs just the same. She sees Maria more like a doll than a person.

In a way none of the characters of Umineko is 'bad'. They're damaged and this lead them to do bad things but they aren't inerently bad.

Originally Posted by Mali

Hi I would ask something from a readers view:
Apparently Lambda appeared before Sayo in Confession I saw from pics.
I thought Bernkastel AND Lambda were character's made by Iku because they based on Higurashi characters... Coincedence? I always thought EP1's and 2's Teaparty and ??? were not written by Sayo but by Tohya/Iku- I stay with this viewpoint.
So I came with that idea that Iku is a Rika/Bernkastel who survived the GHD who decided to become a new one - dividing into Featherine and Bernkastel- and wrote Higurashi (not Akasaka), and after meeting Battler - she felt he's a soulmate who escaped endless kakeras like her- , she helped him to write Umineko and influenced him.

I recall the question: Is Lambda the character Sayo or Iku/Tohya thought of?

We see in the manga that pictures of Lambda and Bern appear in Maria's grimoire. This means that Tohya might have been inspired by them.

Anyway Lambda is the witch of certain/absolute will. So you can see the meeting between her and Sayo as merely a fantasy representation of the consequences it would have if Sayo's will had been absolute.

If with certain she had carried on her murder game, killed everyone and caused the bomb to explode after the message bottles had been entrusted to the sea, a catbox impossible to solve would have been formed with certain and in this catbox she could exist as Beatrice the endless witch.

It's meaningful how Lambda defines herself as Beatrice's guardian and in EP 3 threatens to return Beatrice to her original form if she were to lose to Battler. If Sayo weren't to keep on winning with certain but were to allow Battler to break the catbox and find the truth due to her going easy with him she wouldn't be able to hide herself anymore behind the Beatrice disguise.
Battler would know her true identity.

It's also meaningful how in Ep 5, even though Beatrice is reduced to a doll, Lambda keeps her chained. Sayo is dead but as the catbox is still closed basically she's still trapped in her Beatrice form inside it.

[Mali]

We see in the manga that pictures of Lambda and Bern appear in Maria's grimoire. This means that Tohya might have been inspired by them.

Anyway Lambda is the witch of certain/absolute will. So you can see the meeting between her and Sayo as merely a fantasy representation of the consequences it would have if Sayo's will had been absolute.

If with certain she had carried on her murder game, killed everyone and caused the bomb to explode after the message bottles had been entrusted to the sea, a catbox impossible to solve would have been formed with certain and in this catbox she could exist as Beatrice the endless witch.

It's meaningful how Lambda defines herself as Beatrice's guardian and in EP 3 threatens to return Beatrice to her original form if she were to lose to Battler. If Sayo weren't to keep on winning with certain but were to allow Battler to break the catbox and find the truth due to her going easy with him she wouldn't be able to hide herself anymore behind the Beatrice disguise.
Battler would know her true identity.

It's also meaningful how in Ep 5, even though Beatrice is reduced to a doll, Lambda keeps her chained. Sayo is dead but as the catbox is still closed basically she's still trapped in her Beatrice form inside it.

I thought Maria's grimore was in Ange's possession? :/
Maybe the Higurashi TV easter egg in the anime was much more important than I thought, Maria copy from Magical Girls. It's strange because...the cat of Iku was named Bernkastel, right?
For Lamda, why should Beatrice choose "Certainty" over "Miracle". It's an antithesis that Battler "already" found the truth in prime and the miracle happened. Shouldn't Bern the guardian of Beatrice or at least of Sayo?

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Mali

Hi I would ask something from a readers view:
Apparently Lambda appeared before Sayo in Confession I saw from pics.
I thought Bernkastel AND Lambda were character's made by Iku because they based on Higurashi characters... Coincedence? I always thought EP1's and 2's Teaparty and ??? were not written by Sayo but by Tohya/Iku- I stay with this viewpoint.

Based on my understanding of the whole Umineko-verse after reading the EP8 manga (I'm sorry it's quoted so often, but it really does shed much needed light on some minor parts that Ryukishi left painfully ambiguous), I'd say that it is neither.

Lambda and Bern both exist, as witches, within the witches' realm that exists around the human realm. Both the world without magic (the human realm) and the world with magic (the witches' realm) exist in Umineko, but they have almost no contact with each other. Only very few people are granted access to that world, but even then there is nothing that can actually help them change something about their life in the human world.

To my understanding, none of the meta-world scenes appear in the forgeries. They are showing the characters "souls" fighting about these stories, and witches like Lambda and Bern make a game out of it.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Mali

I thought Maria's grimore was in Ange's possession? :/

Originally it was in Maria's possession than it was handed to Ange. We've two ways in which this can happen.

- Maria had actually 2 or more grimoire (as she might have ended one and therefore started another). Ange was handed the one she had at home but on Rokkenjima Maria had another.
- Maria's grimoire which she brought on Rokkenjima was found by the police and handed to the surviving Ushiromiya (Eva and Ange) as judged unimportant for the investigations (or after they had been concluded) and Ange decided to keep it.

Originally Posted by Mali

Maybe the Higurashi TV easter egg in the anime was much more important than I thought, Maria copy from Magical Girls. It's strange because...the cat of Iku was named Bernkastel, right?

Well, Bern and Lambda has plenty of cameos in various forms. In the manga Maria watches on the tv Magical Bern-chan (right in Ep 1) in which there's Bernkastel.

In the VN (and also in the manga) we're told that Lambda is still playing the Higurashi game (while Bern has finished it). Battler had read the Higurashi novel recently (he mentions it and what Keiichi's mother said to Keiichi) and his fave character is Shion.

If the bodies were found, a report would be sent to the police, the remaining people would become even more cautious, and they could start looking for the culprit, ...anyways, none of these things would make the culprit feel any more comfortable.
...Just like the words of the main character's mother in a novel I read recently called "Higurashi no naku koro ni". (Ep 1)

"......Your secret was so incredible that mine just wouldn't match up. ...So in exchange, I'll teach you a special secret. I'll tell you the name of the culprit in this game called 'Higurashi no Naku Koro ni'."
"Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhh, don't say it!! I'm still playing i-t!!" (Ep 3)

".........In that case, ...the culprit would want to leave the person they hated most until the end. ......Yeah, similar to what was said by my favorite character in this novel I like. Something about how the worst way to kill someone is to 'start by killing the people closest to them, make them feel that sadness, then kill that person in the end'."
"Oh my, that must have been quite a terrifying novel. How frightening......" (Ep 5)

There might be more but I can't remember it.

Originally Posted by Mali

For Lamda, why should Beatrice choose "Certainty" over "Miracle". It's an antithesis that Battler "already" found the truth in prime and the miracle happened. Shouldn't Bern the guardian of Beatrice or at least of Sayo?

Beatrice became a witch due to her 'certain magic world' keeping on being certain.
In short as long as no one can find the truth in the catbox the existence of the witch Beatrice is granted.

Battler didn't quite find out the truth in Prime but he was told about part of it (the rest of it was something he learnt as Tohya from Sayo's Confession and Eva).
The understanding he shows to Sayo might feel like a miracle to her but it's actually very fitting of his character.

Also Bern will say in Ep 3 if something is more like an incident to her than a miracle she won't give her blessing and in Tsubasa that she actually doesn't give her blessing to anyone because miracles don't happen, no matter how hard you work for them.

In a way it should be scary to be Bern's protege as we know she gave some sort of protection to:
- Battler, under the belief he'll leave the island and return home but actually Battler's personality had died in his body and only Tohya remains.
- Ange, under the belief she can bring her family back, which she can't do. Later Bern will actually try to lead her to jump off a building and die. Ange won't die but she will let her identity 'Ushiromiya Ange' die.
- Erika, possibly under the belief she can safely reach Rokkenjima and make the difference or something. Instead we know that Erika didn't even reached Rokkenjima.

In short Bern is the guardian of people who has no chance to reach a miracle. Bern is more like temptation, hope in something that is no impossible per se but has such low probability to happen it can as well be impossible.

In a way is meaningful she's the miko of Featherine as Featherine, as an author, can freely use in her stories plot elements with impossibly lows chances of happening.

[RandomUser]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Solving Ep 1 with Rudolf and Kyrie is impossible as the identity of the corpses was confirmed. In short unless you want Rudolf and Kyrie to kill people while being faceless they'll have troubles committing murders... ^_^;

It's said in red that the identity of the corpse are recognized, but if they aren't dead then the red doesn't count, I used that logic to make anyone in the garden shed to be a possible culprit accomplice. Also Battler didn't confirm their dead, he just thought they were surely dead because of how their faces looked.

[Mali]

@jj
I had completely forgot Battler knew Higurashi!
It seems When they cry 5&6 (if they happen) will include Bern and Lamda in some forms hinted by their goodbye.
I wonder if their roles stay the same? Miracles are important in the series, certainity recently showed up. I dont think the author is going to use the same context "miracle vs certainity" again...

[Rudolf Ushiromiya]

So I do have a question about Featherine; so she is a fictional character written by Tohya Hachijou and Ikuko, right? But if Featherine is not actual real then how is Bernkastel able to appear outside of the story, shouldn't they just be characters? I'm just confused on what is real or not, like The cosmology Featherine controls is the stories within story that Touya and Ikuko created, she can't control all of setting in entire Uminekoverse as she can within the story of umineko/fictional world, correct? As powerful as she is I don't know how far her influence goes. She is not real, just a created character? Or does she actual exist and can change to her human avatar?

Sorry if it's worded weird, basically is Featherine just a fictional character created by Touyha and ikuko? And do her abilities only apply to Umineko? Or is Featherine actually Hachijo? since she apparently transformed into Featherine during the press conference and apparently turned the area into the kakkera. I'm just confused here

[AuraTwilight]

Featherine isn't a creation of the Hachijous; she exists in the Meta-World entirely, and she's effectively a god.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

So I do have a question about Featherine; so she is a fictional character written by Tohya Hachijou and Ikuko, right? But if Featherine is not actual real then how is Bernkastel able to appear outside of the story, shouldn't they just be characters? I'm just confused on what is real or not, like The cosmology Featherine controls is the stories within story that Touya and Ikuko created, she can't control all of setting in entire Uminekoverse as she can within the story of umineko/fictional world, correct? As powerful as she is I don't know how far her influence goes. She is not real, just a created character? Or does she actual exist and can change to her human avatar?

Sorry if it's worded weird, basically is Featherine just a fictional character created by Touyha and ikuko? And do her abilities only apply to Umineko? Or is Featherine actually Hachijo? since she apparently transformed into Featherine during the press conference and apparently turned the area into the kakkera. I'm just confused here

Umineko isn't clear over this. However in the manga is implied that Beatrice and Battler were nothing else but souls/part of the souls that had died.
It's easy to see Erika as a dead soul as well while MetaAnge is just the part of Ange's soul that Yukari discharged.

As a result is possible to speculate that Featherine is somehow formed by parts of the souls of Tohya and Ikuko combined together.

However in Umineko Higurashi is a novel and Bern is implied as being a part of Rika's soul. Therefore it's possible that Bern is basically something similar to Sakutarou or the seven sisters, in short her vessel was a litterary character and Ikuko's cat and Featherine (Tohya and Ikuko) sort of ended up using them to create Bern's soul. Lambda might have a similar origin. This would make Bern the equivalent of Featherine's furniture/piece and therefore she can control Bern (and Lambda) the same way Maria can control Sakutarou.

As Featherine created them she can control them like a God and therefore can easily win against Lambda.
She would also be a still living soul therefore she can affect the realm of the living much more than, let's say Beato.

Mind you, this is just a theory. While it's implied that MetaBeato and MetaBattler are the souls/part of the souls of PrimeSayo and PrimeBattler nothing clear is said about Featherine apart the implication that she's the Meta representation of the duo Hachijo Tohya and that she has God-like powers in the Meta world.

[marianx]

can someone explain without love it cant be seen. does that mean to look at it from multiple view points, or to actually view things in a positive light.

[Ayu-ayu]

Reading the manga to the end, I'm still not completely convinced that Ikuko isn't Yasu. I see a lot of potential hints about this remaining, but they could admittedly be red herrings. I feel like R07 deliberately left that ambiguous though.

Another angle I'm playing with now while rereading is that the meta-world could be largely representing Ange's perspective of reading the message bottles/forgeries along with her meeting Ikuko and later finally Eva's diary, and how the semi-imagined characters that she forged from Maria's journal and her own rediscovery of "magic" along with her desire for Battler to stand against the witches keeping him in the catbox represent her own attempts at puzzling out of each story.

This makes me regard the roles of the Witch of Miracles and Witch of Certainty a bit differently (particularly in how they serve for a while as a vehicle for Ange's imagined self-insertion into the story), as well as even the kind of caricatured way Battler and Beatrice behave in the meta. Meta-Battler is more or less Ange's idealized image of Battler, a projection of both her hopes and anxieties about him.

I haven't fully explored this angle yet, and it might not fully fit (I'm not sure about the alternate Ange timelines, for example), but so far it's a kind of fun way of rereading it.

[OtakuKamiSama]

I have something to ask..I've been reading Umineko, and I know the core of it is about battlers promise. But reading the first two games, I really couldn't see anything regarding that except a few subtle hints and comments. What should I focus on to see Beatrice's motive? And what game's should I read to find that?

[AuraTwilight]

Um...all of them?

[Mali]

Thank you Ayu-Ayu for your post. I cannot unsee it now...
It's hard to support Ikuko is Yasu because she is part of a fairly known family. She also stated she has brothers. But on the other side... these thought are not very far away from being right. Yasu could have amnesia too, she had siblings, had a goldingot/card and was thrown out of the parental house.

Ikuko's "older" appearance can be explained with "Battler's" strange feeling about the difference of the age of his mind (much younger than 18) and his body (much older than 18). This made me think he haven't spent very much time in the events the VN showed,.

Are there any "release dates" of the forgeries in the manga? I don't think Toya didn't write them regulary in a span of 12 year.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by marianx

can someone explain without love it cant be seen. does that mean to look at it from multiple view points, or to actually view things in a positive light.

It's more or less explained in Ep 4. When looking at something/someone your view over that something/someone is influenced by the fact you've love or not for that thing/person.
It doesn't necessarily mean just in a positive light but also in an understanding manner.
For example everyone knows Sakutarou is just a plushie but since the idea Sakutarou is alive makes Maria happy, some just play along with her and see a 'living Sakutarou' when looking with love at Maria and Sakutarou.
When in the manga Sayo tells Battler the truth, he can see past her actions and realize they were motivated by her pain instead than just curse her for what she planned to do.
When Beatrice asks Ange to chose if it was a trick or magic Ange can see that, although it was very obviously a trick, the intent was to make her happy.

She states that:

No matter what form of magic, unless you understand the purpose and the seed of truth hidden within it, you cannot use it properly. Without love it cannot be seen.

I hope it helps!

Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu

Reading the manga to the end, I'm still not completely convinced that Ikuko isn't Yasu. I see a lot of potential hints about this remaining, but they could admittedly be red herrings. I feel like R07 deliberately left that ambiguous though.

While I would have loved if Ikuko were to be Sayo the manga told us pretty clearly she drowned herself and died. Her soul, likely due to her regrets, reached the meta or purgatory or whatever you want to call it and was trapped there until she could let go of her regrets in Ep 5.

Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu

Another angle I'm playing with now while rereading is that the meta-world could be largely representing Ange's perspective of reading the message bottles/forgeries along with her meeting Ikuko and later finally Eva's diary, and how the semi-imagined characters that she forged from Maria's journal and her own rediscovery of "magic" along with her desire for Battler to stand against the witches keeping him in the catbox represent her own attempts at puzzling out of each story.

In a way the whole story is also Ange's soul travel. Her soul as well goes through it until it comes to the resolution of going on living and becoming Yukari after her fall from the building.

Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu

I haven't fully explored this angle yet, and it might not fully fit (I'm not sure about the alternate Ange timelines, for example), but so far it's a kind of fun way of rereading it.

LOL, I did explore it in the past when the truth was still in the catbox and it was a pretty interesting point of view. So even if it's not the intended truth I think you'll have fun looking at Umineko from this perspective.

Originally Posted by OtakuKamiSama

I have something to ask..I've been reading Umineko, and I know the core of it is about battlers promise. But reading the first two games, I really couldn't see anything regarding that except a few subtle hints and comments. What should I focus on to see Beatrice's motive? And what game's should I read to find that?

Well, the hints had to be subtle otherwise it wouldn't be a mystery.
Chiru, specifically Ep 7, hands out the whole backstory to the promise... and the manga expanded it further in Ep 8 manga version adding lots of bits... but to get it well you've to read the whole story and see all the hints.

Originally Posted by Mali

Are there any "release dates" of the forgeries in the manga? I don't think Toya didn't write them regulary in a span of 12 year.

Tohya began writing forgeries along with Ikuko after his memory returned so no, in the beginning he wasn't writing them. We don't know the exact date in which he started though. Haguruma made a tentative attempt of guessing the time considering on how far internet had developed when Tohya recovered his memory (Ikuko was using internet to search for info)... Here it is if you want to read it!

[Mali]

Thank you...I actually remember this post. How could I have forgotten it? I'm bad
Someone should add useful informations like this on the umineko wiki page.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

It's more or less explained in Ep 4. When looking at something/someone your view over that something/someone is influenced by the fact you've love or not for that thing/person.
It doesn't necessarily mean just in a positive light but also in an understanding manner.
For example everyone knows Sakutarou is just a plushie but since the idea Sakutarou is alive makes Maria happy, some just play along with her and see a 'living Sakutarou' when looking with love at Maria and Sakutarou.
When in the manga Sayo tells Battler the truth, he can see past her actions and realize they were motivated by her pain instead than just curse her for what she planned to do.
When Beatrice asks Ange to chose if it was a trick or magic Ange can see that, although it was very obviously a trick, the intent was to make her happy.

Does the phrase appeared in EP1-2 manga? I know it appeared in Alliance, but I'm curious.
Imo the talk with Okonogi wasn't very productive...I'm mean Ange would be penalized for abondoning her truth (Eva is the culprit). Ep8 toned down the idea of the phrase to forground the the-truth-isn't-always-important-idea. EP8- a false reassurance?

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Mali

Does the phrase appeared in EP1-2 manga? I know it appeared in Alliance, but I'm curious.

The first time I remember it contextually appearing was in EP2 during the Kanon/Shannon flashbacks. Kanon is walking through the garden and finds Kinzo who is crying for Beatrice to appear to him and he would give everything for that to happen, while Beatrice's spirit is hovering around him sad over the fact that Kinzo is unable to open his eyes because "without love it cannot be seen".
That was of course a major slap-in-the-face hint back then, considering that it was basically screaming, "Kinzo, I'm standing right in front of you as Kanon, but you are too blinded by sadness to recognize me!!"

Imo the talk with Okonogi wasn't very productive...I'm mean Ange would be penalized for abondoning her truth (Eva is the culprit).

Why would she be penalized for it?!
Yes, her truth that Eva is the culprit is a comfortable one and one that keeps her mind off the far more likely truth (that turned out true anyway), but there was never any penality in store for her for changing her basic idea of the truth.

The talk with Okonogi in EP4 actually held some very important hints.
The fact that Eva was unlikely to kill her immediate family, the general idea of the impossible to prove truth, again the highlight on "without love it cannot be seen".

Ep8 toned down the idea of the phrase to forground the the-truth-isn't-always-important-idea. EP8- a false reassurance?

Yes, sadly the VN made it seem like the message became "the truth isn't important", which understandably made some members in this forum angry as well.
The manga changed this around a bit and made it clear that the truth has value, but just exposing the truth without any moral compass or idea what it might do to other people is just as wrong as simply living in a dreamworld removed from reality. EP8 was from the very beginning suppossed to highlight that fiction has as much a value as truth, especially if they complement each other.