2009-06-10, 00:07 | Link #61 | |
One PUNCH!
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2009-06-10, 01:46 | Link #63 | ||
Hopeless Dreamer
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: On bended knee asking Belldandy to marry me
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Why did Shana need to learn how to cook? Same reasons... d'uh. I like Kaede. I thought she was sweet and never once thought of her as being a doormat. It's been a while since I've seen it, but I don't ever remember Rin treating her like one either. And Kaede's behavior becomes a reason for him to change later on, anyhow, so it actually serves a purpose. So what if the protag never helped with chores, or the rich girl wants to learn how to cook? It's Shuffle! FFS! It's supposed to be full of contrivances, cliches, fan service, and... what? Cute girls doing nothing but being cute and being objects of desire. OMFG, Imagine that! And Shuffle! is absolutely wonderful for doing just that. Seriously now, if you want to look for examples where sexism isn't an obvious element in a genre, stay away from harem. That's not to say that harem girls don't have character development outside of their obvious roles in the story, because there are many series where the girls have very compelling and heart touching experiences and personal growth... usually because of the protags caring influence, whether it's "weak and indecisive" or not.
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Last edited by Mushi; 2009-06-10 at 02:19. |
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2009-06-10, 10:06 | Link #64 | |||
Ahou ga
Join Date: Feb 2009
Age: 47
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Spoiler for Major spoilers for Shuffle!:
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Just to try and bring this back to the original topic, though, Kaede is a decent example of the identity crisis women in Japanese society have been facing in recent years. So used to being domestic by default for so long that once things change for whatever reason, be it expectations or personal situations or what have you, that they really must struggle to find a new identity. It's not always easy to get outside of your comfort zone, after all, but it is necessary if you want to grow as any kind of person.
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2009-06-10, 13:10 | Link #65 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
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Um... yeah, can we de-Shuffle this, please? Unless one can stick to the sexism/feminist aspects of it as an example.
Harem, almost by definition, is about a bunch of girls hoping a particular guy will choose them. Rarely do the girls have their own vectors unless the story has been remixed like those where the guy is really just helping to solve a problem for each girl (Kanon), or the plot is a triangle (Canvas 2) or a straight 1:1 love story (Lamune). Actually, my favorite ero adaptations are the ones that significantly remix the story to jump out of the "serial choose the girl" route (e.g. KKPR, which was hated by many fans of the eroge). The stories that most seem to pass my "sexist BS" filter are the ones either told from a female POV or show the women in the story as having their own goals and directions in life.
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2009-06-10, 13:29 | Link #66 |
Ahou ga
Join Date: Feb 2009
Age: 47
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There's a few mecha anime that have pretty strong and capable female characters. I mentioned Macross and Gunbuster already, but you could probably throw Gurren Lagann in with them as well. Yoko is the very picture of a strong, liberated woman who takes a backseat to no man. The genre may be dominated by male protagonists, but the ladies certainly fight the good fight as well.
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2009-06-10, 14:25 | Link #67 | |
out of touch with anime
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Greece
Age: 44
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For this you would also have to include Japanese media in general, not just animation. But if commercial animation (not comics), is done mostly by guys, even when it is supposed to be for female audience, then gender is an issue. Considering that in Japan, in contrast to China and Korea, women had more freedom throughout history since they were not that much influenced by Confucianism (eg Chinese women had foot bindings) and that many Chinese and Korean revolutionary women found refuge in Japan, I would say that anime supposed to represent medieval Japanese culture, does give a false impression. For the rest of anime it would be better to say to what kind of audience it is made. |
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2009-06-10, 14:41 | Link #68 | |
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2009-06-10, 15:08 | Link #69 | ||
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
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2009-06-10, 15:27 | Link #70 |
Wiggle Your Big Toe
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Milwaukee
Age: 33
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Ah yes Twelve Kingdoms. If you are looking for a strong female lead and a nice fantasy thats defenitely one to look too.
A big element of the story is in fact of one of the characters named Yoko, learning how to assert herself and basically leave behind her sexist upbringings. In the start Yoko fits the typical "nice girl" card; Polite, obedient, and well mannered. A good portion of the story early on deals heavily with Yoko's change from a meek child to a fierce warrior. She also grows in her maturity, being very empathetic towards those around her and articulately thinking about her actions. Now I've never watched the anime, so these insights come from my reading of the manga.
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Last edited by GuidoHunter_Toki; 2009-06-10 at 16:38. |
2009-06-10, 17:46 | Link #71 | |||
Le fou, c'est moi
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA
Age: 34
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So how do you define the general trend of a medium? With the same broad brush that would stereotype a culture?
I prefer, really, to work on some less cumbersome levels. The specific work, perhaps, or the genre. Though I do find it amusing that some asserts that the harem genre is somehow a feminist, or even anti-male, one. Good one, that. I almost bought your bridge to Alaska. Quote:
It still looks largely like a traditional society in many other aspects, though. Queens fight wars but I don't see (m)any female common grunts, and the caretakers of the Kirin are all female. Of course, Twelve Kingdoms is a strange world in general. The presence of an actual Heaven tends to shift the fictional social dynamics around, and supernatural creatures -- sentients, mind -- don't necessarily adhere to the modern real life concepts of individual choices and like. Some are born to do what they are meant to do and take every pleasure in it, like the motherly creature that's born to take care of the Kirin. Oh, and there's the element of fantastic racism, as a certain Western sage () once said, "[b]lack and white lived in perfect harmony and ganged up on the green." Sexism tends to be less of a concern at that point. Quote:
Jii-san, go watch it now! Quote:
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2009-06-10, 17:59 | Link #72 | ||||
Hallowed Redeemer
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Stanford, CA
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Also, despite being targeted at a male demographic, DragonballZ, Naruto, One Piece has the main characters completely at the mercy of their female companions. It doesn't matter that they are so tough that they can take the physical punishment. The beating up is most of all an act of establishing control and superiority rather than a desire to actually hurt someone permanently. It's like those shows are trying to establish that girls have complete control over the guys and can beat them up whenever they like and the guys cannot do anything about it - like your mother can smack you (or at least - punish you/ground you for those who disapprove of physical disciplining) and you cannot really retort. I don't think this view is very favorable of guys in anime. Quote:
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2009-06-10, 18:24 | Link #73 | |
Le fou, c'est moi
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For that matter, despite all his negative qualities which you point as evidence of anti-male tendencies, why is it that the Total Loser still gets the girl in the end? Heck, make it gets the girls with the plural even. I can spin it just as easily as you do to point out that this validates that the man -- no matter how pathetic -- is still the gravitational center in which these exaggeratedly extraordinary girls revolve around, the sun to their stars, the center of their universe, thanks to no effort on his part. All because he is a guy, and somewhat "kind" (sometimes not even that). The girls become shallow -- more shallow than the guy -- for liking him, and their extraordinary talents and characteristics are only there to enrich his life, making them more attractive to him. They are characters, but their purpose is service to another. All their dreams, their motivations, their individual personalities are tailored to his needs. Replace "him" with "the viewer" as necessary, in line with the Insertable Harem Guy concept. If one expects real life women to serve him with such fervor, and to maintain such a façade of perfection, then it becomes a sexist attitude. Although, a caveat: I treat the harem genre for what it is: fanservice. Sexism in fanservice is a different issue than the inherent sexism shown by that rather disgusting picture of the Battleship boardgame, the latter of which tends to be far more harmful. |
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2009-06-10, 18:30 | Link #74 | |
Hallowed Redeemer
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Stanford, CA
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Despite being in love with the guy for some unknown reason, the girls in such shows have positive qualities. The guy has almost none.
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2009-06-10, 18:41 | Link #76 | |
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If I understood you correctly, you have a problem with girls falling for a worthless guy, which I agree can be interpreted as a flaw in their character, although, as they say - love is blind. So, the girls have this flaw, but you have to admit, most of them have distinct personalities and positive qualities. Just being in love with the guy does not erase those. To make is simpler, which is worse: Portraying girls with generally positive qualities with a flaw of being in love with a worthless guy? or Portraying a guy who is worthless? It seems like a no-brainer to me.
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2009-06-10, 19:10 | Link #77 | |
Hopeless Dreamer
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: On bended knee asking Belldandy to marry me
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Sunohara a wuss? LOL. He may be dense, but he's assertive and aggressive most of the time. Just because he doesn't know when to give up, doesn't make him a wuss. And there's After Story... taking on the soccer team to defend his little sister's honor... hello? Using Sunohara as an example for wimpy male = fail. Beautiful babes who kick ass is part of the fantasy element in many stories. It's a contradiction to reality that makes for good amusement and entertainment. Having a fall guy who gets beat up by the beautiful babes is par for the course in romantic comedy and should never be taken too seriously.
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2009-06-10, 21:35 | Link #78 |
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Join Date: Jun 2009
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IMO any work created for men to ogle at beautiful women is sexist and decidedly not anti-male. The main character is just as stupid or wimpy as possible so the male viewership does not feel resentment towards him. What guy wants to watch a pretty playboy get all the pure, sexy, beautiful girls to adore him and cook his lunch forever? I'm sure that kind of character would be despised even more than wimpy Keitaro!
However, since moe is, after all, created for a male audience, I'm not that bothered by the sexism as long as we all accept it's wish fullfilment and not much else. I don't like to see the female cast in those shows be presented as examples of empowered women,though. I mean, if their whole point is to be desirable in one way or another, that's not exactly empowering. What actually bugs me is the fact that shoujo, being created by females for females, can sometimes be even more offensive than standard moe fare. How many shoujo characters do we know who are abused, forced into sex or almost forced, just to make them dramatic heroines, or show how the guys desire them oh so much? In fact, a lot of shoujo manga depicts sex in a way that it's only "proper" if the girl kinda acts like she doesn't really want it (but kinda does). I'm not even sure if everyday Japanese culture is to blame here, since many Japanese girls and women today seem to have sex rather freely, yet in manga it's mostly the "bad girls" who are shown to visit love hotels with the guys. Not to mention, a lot of shoujo protagonists are weak-willed, ditzy and sometimes even stupid (in a teehee-but-I'm-still-cute-way, see Usagi). I wish female shoujo mangaka would pay a little more attention to these things. They are some of the few women capable of shaping Japanese girls' views of themselves, yet, often, all they with that power is reinforce some of the dumbest gender roles. With all that said, in the west we have a somewhat distorted view of anime, because most titles that are brought over here are niche otaku stuff that's ripe with fanservice and ecchiness. Many long-standing classics of anime are actually surprisingly feminist, and I'm thankful I had those shape my worldview growing up in the 80s, rather than the horrible, horrible American cartoons that existed back then. Some examples: - Rose of Versailles (Utena was based off this) - the very popular World Masterpiece Theatre series created by Nippon Animation, that turned works like Anne of Green Gables, Little Princess Sara, Little Women and many others into anime - Attack No. 1, an insanely popular and influential shoujo title from the 70s about a Girls' Volleyball team - Lucky Star references this in the Volleyball ep - Movies by Miyazaki, of course - Chibi-Maruko-chan And some others I can't think of. Anyway, these were all great and I recommend them. Last edited by tarito; 2009-06-10 at 21:47. |
2009-06-10, 22:34 | Link #79 | |
勇者
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2009-06-10, 22:51 | Link #80 | ||
Wiggle Your Big Toe
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Contrary to the girls who, the majority of the time, are only defined by how they feel toward the main character, or who they are in love with, rather than what they do. Even though the boys are usually potrayed as dorks never really come across too me as immature and usually seem more down to earth than most of the girls do (with all their strange antics used to "get the man"). The girls fighting over who wants the man and the guy just wants all the madness to stop. For me I usually find better qualities in the males for being sound, normal people, compared to the bizzarre and over-the-top traits of the girls that many times make me feel like they have something unscrewed in their heads. Granted of course this isn't the case with every single harem out there. Now the same can be said about guys in that respect. If girls going gaga over guys is sexist, well there are plenty of guys that fit that role as well (ones that come across as perverted and becoming very unreasonable whenever a hot girl crosses their sights. However I find this more prominent in manga than anime. Quote:
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Last edited by GuidoHunter_Toki; 2009-06-10 at 23:01. |
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