Questions about magical girl genre

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Jason Todd......

That is just sad.

So, can we vote for MJ to die so that Spidey can marry Felicia Hardy now?

Or is she dead already? Granted, I'm not exactly up to date with Spidey comic.

Okay, back on topic.....Ummm, Classified, are you still here?

[Classified Info]

Sorry, but lately i've been having exams so it's not like i had much time to reply; anyways, i realized just now that i had expressed myself in a wrong way:

So what I take from it is, that while they say they put themselves into the main characters place, they don't really do that. Instead they just take up his perspective (which is the perspective of the narrative anyway, so that's a natural thing to do) and relate strongly to him/her while experiencing the story.

You just found the words: of course it's impossible to really fit in the protagonist (i should be super lucky that the protagonist thinks and does exactly what i would do), but i can relate a lot with some characters; i just didn't know how to express this in a clear way, so exaggerated the concept and said "i like to totally fit in the protagonist" when it's actually wrong. Thank you for helping me find the words; i was at fault here.

Hoping that this will clear out some doubts and natural questions that arose in some of you, what i think i wanted to say was that, maybe because of an habit, i got used too much to male protagonists and now i find it hard to relate a lot with female characters; afterall (and i didn't say this in the beginning, so i'm again at fault), the reason i started watching animes was because of school life nostalgia, and so i wanted to put myself in the shoes of a male student again, nothing else; even after having watched many school/romance titles tho, i guess i'm still unexperienced in the anime field and have a lot to learn. The thing is that in the beginning i was watching animes just to remember the old good times, but now i think it became a sort of hobby, so i wanted to learn how to appreciate other genres: that's the sole reason why i'm asking here, because i feel like i'm missing the real value of some titles i watched and that i didn't enjoy much (even tho it looks like they were "objectively" good titles).

When i'll have some more time (hoping in August), i'll make sure to check some of the titles you suggested me, hoping that i can get to like other genres, since there is a so wide variety of animes.

Thank you for your answers so far, and sorry if i wasn't much clear all the way, it's just that i'm not much experienced(as i said before, this habit of watching animes started because of a nostalgia, and not because i'm a huge anime fan) and sometimes i don't even know what it is that i want; i just try to deduce what i like (from what made me love a title) and try to get to a conclusion (that doesn't often exactly translate to what i wanted to say).

[Cold~as~Ice]

maybe you should create another thread "looking for good non romance anime/manga" have that thread fill up so once you are done catching up with all the romance titles in your other thread you can switch to the new thread. your romance thread was successful because you always updated and gave feedback on suggested titles. I don't think I ever seen another op who organized his/her thread like you have.

[hyl]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

So, can we vote for MJ to die so that Spidey can marry Felicia Hardy now?

Or is she dead already? Granted, I'm not exactly up to date with Spidey comic.

A little off topic reply to that comment:

The marriage of MJ and Peter Parker has been undone in a stupid story line "one more day", after Peter made a deal with Mephisto to save his dying Aunt May in exchange for his marriage with MJ. Which means they were never married and lots of other things are changed as well.
This was just a lazy excuse and bad writing to reboot the spiderman franchise.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by hyl

The marriage of MJ and Peter Parker has been undone in a stupid story line "one more day", after Peter made a deal with Mephisto to save his dying Aunt May in exchange for his marriage with MJ. Which means they were never married and lots of other things are changed as well.
This was just a lazy excuse and bad writing to reboot the spiderman franchise.

Ah, thanx for that info, hyl (even though it's ).

And for Classified, keep up the good work!

[VampirePaladin]

If you want males you can invision yourself as in magical girl shows I have a few suggestions...

Kore wa Zombie Desu Ka - Main character is male

Magic Knight Rayearth - several badass males

Senki Zesshou Symphogear - badass normal male commander

Mai Hime - Has a major male character and a sort of love triangle

Mai Otome - Also has several important male characters, closer to magical girl than Hime

Personally, I love all of the above except for Mai Hime. But, I think it might be more to your taste than Otome going by your posts.

[Kaijo]

Classified, I actually know where you're coming from. Female characters like Madoka, tend to act rather weak and girlish, and that puts you off. It puts me off, too. That's one of the big reasons why Madoka just fell flat for me.

The key is to find a strong woman to empathize with, and that's why Nanoha is one of my favorite series, despite also being a magical girl. Why? Because Nanoha acts much like I would, and thus I can identify with her. She sees a problem and leaps in, trying as best as she can to resolve it. Heh, in fact, one of the issues people might have with her, is because she acts so mature despite her age (although extra materials expound upon why that is).

So it's not the gender, so much as it is the attitude and personality. Women are generally portrayed as weak crybabies, and only able to act strong if they have a man supporting them, or if they have been scarred strongly by life and thus grown cold.

Of course, Madoka had to be kept weak, otherwise she would have wished the plot fixed in the first episode or two, and there would be no series. :P

The reverse of this is Shinji from Evangelion, who acted like a weak crybaby despite being male. I hated him as a protagonist, too, and was unable to empathize with him much. Although I did understand him a bit more than Madoka, since he was constantly being pushed and controlled by others.

[Ithekro]

Sailor Moon herself was generally a crybaby unless she was ultra deturmined. Most of the others of her group were not. Sailor Mars was particularly stable.

[Guernsey]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Classified, I actually know where you're coming from. Female characters like Madoka, tend to act rather weak and girlish, and that puts you off. It puts me off, too. That's one of the big reasons why Madoka just fell flat for me.

The key is to find a strong woman to empathize with, and that's why Nanoha is one of my favorite series, despite also being a magical girl. Why? Because Nanoha acts much like I would, and thus I can identify with her. She sees a problem and leaps in, trying as best as she can to resolve it. Heh, in fact, one of the issues people might have with her, is because she acts so mature despite her age (although extra materials expound upon why that is).

So it's not the gender, so much as it is the attitude and personality. Women are generally portrayed as weak crybabies, and only able to act strong if they have a man supporting them, or if they have been scarred strongly by life and thus grown cold.

Of course, Madoka had to be kept weak, otherwise she would have wished the plot fixed in the first episode or two, and there would be no series. :P

The reverse of this is Shinji from Evangelion, who acted like a weak crybaby despite being male. I hated him as a protagonist, too, and was unable to empathize with him much. Although I did understand him a bit more than Madoka, since he was constantly being pushed and controlled by others.

To be fair, it wasn't as though Madoka had enough information at the time to make such a wish. Kyubey wasn't really being very helpful but Madoka neede dot get more information before she made that wish. I see your point though but unlike shinji, Madoka isn't really a 'you suck lol' towards the fanbase.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Guernsey

To be fair, it wasn't as though Madoka had enough information at the time to make such a wish. Kyubey wasn't really being very helpful but Madoka neede dot get more information before she made that wish. I see your point though but unlike shinji, Madoka isn't really a 'you suck lol' towards the fanbase.

Spoiler for Madoka spoilers:

"you suck lol" to the fanbase? I'm not sure I said anything like that. I just said she was fairly weak and a crybaby. Well, I don't think she really cried, so much as just went emo for 75% of the series.

And remember her wish? To remove all witches before they were born? She had enough information to make that wish by episode 2. Hell, I'm surprised no one, in the history of MG's in that universe, had the thought: "Hey, I wonder if I could just wish all these bad witch thingys away so they never bother humanity again?"

So it's not just on Madoka, but practically the entire cast (and all the previous MG's) were carrying the idiot ball. But, as I said, had she made such a wish in episode 2, we wouldn't have a series. It's also important to remember that, while he lifted a lot of the plot elements from Kamen Rider Ryuki, he made a change that he didn't think through. In Kamen Rider Ryuki, you fight to get a wish. In Madoka, you get the wish first. That's the reason we have this plot hole big enough to drive to fly the Tenga Toppa Gurren Lagann through.

And I fully recognize there are people who like that kind of weak, highly emotional and irrational character; I don't. And I suspect that's a large reason why Classified doesn't, either. I prefer my characters with a bit more backbone and intelligence, which is why I can't empathize with her much. I think, more than just male or female, that's the real reason Classified can't empathize with her.

Also, as Ithekro mentioned, Sailor Moon annoyed me for the same reason. Although at least she did manage to stand up on her own fairly often (even if sometimes she had to be cajoled into it, heh).

But this is just my own take on things.

[Coldlight]

@Kaijo Maybe you'd like put some of those details in a Spoiler. Not everyone has seen Madoka yet, you know.

[bhl88]

@Kaijo: Homura sucked up all of Madoka's character development. Blame it on her.

[Kaijo]

How long after something has aired, until we're free to post without spoiler tags? There has to be some cutoff where we can freely state that Dark Vader is Luke's father. Because even that would bother someone, since they can claim "some people haven't seen Star Wars yet." And given the OP's post, it should have been obvious that Madoka discussion would be taking place within since, ya know, people would have been discussing why it was good or not good.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

I think Kaijo is right. The OP (Classified) already watched Madoka in its entirety and he wish to discuss it (along with other magical girl anime) in this thread. Classified clearly stated this in the opening post, so those who follow this thread should expect some Madoka spoilers along the way, right?

[Flawfinder]

Personally, I didn't like Madoka very much because her personality was just "nice girl". There wasn't much more to her than that.

[Guernsey]

Then again the same can be said of most the characters in Madoka, they were flat and othe only purpose they served is to reinforce the story's themes (or Urobutcher's sadism).

[Kirarakim]

Madoka is definitely not a favorite character of mine but I think her character does fit as a magical girl protagonist: one who loves her friends and who doesn't think she can do much.

It's the same with the protagonists being middle-schoolers, that is also something pretty common to the magical girl genre.


Madoka does grow throughout the series, but her growth is mainly based on watching and observing what others go through. She doesn't become an active player until the end. That is an interesting twist on the character type. Hence she is only truly the main character at the end of the story. If you think of the series as a deconstruction then a reconstruction of the genre, Madoka's role really does work. From a character perspective I think Madoka is a bit boring, but from a more narrative/theme perspective of magical girls, I find her very interesting.

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

How long after something has aired, until we're free to post without spoiler tags? There has to be some cutoff where we can freely state that Dark Vader is Luke's father. Because even that would bother someone, since they can claim "some people haven't seen Star Wars yet." And given the OP's post, it should have been obvious that Madoka discussion would be taking place within since, ya know, people would have been discussing why it was good or not good.

If this were a series thread, the answer is "as soon as an English-subtitled episode is released." In general threads, it seems to me to be a matter of judgement on the part of the posters. Personally I think it's usually unfair to reveal key character deaths and similar types of events. So by default I'd refrain from talking about the events in Madoka without tags. However I think there are extenuating circumstances of the type you mention in the case of this show in this thread. I suppose there are still a small number of AS members who don't by now know about either Luke's father or a certain blond-haired girl in Madoka, but I doubt they're reading this thread.

[Vexx]

I'm just going to say, "read the spoiler policy" and go read the policy discussion in Forum Feedback. If a person hasn't done that and is complaining, sympathy may evaporate

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Classified, I actually know where you're coming from. Female characters like Madoka, tend to act rather weak and girlish, and that puts you off. It puts me off, too. That's one of the big reasons why Madoka just fell flat for me.

The key is to find a strong woman to empathize with, and that's why Nanoha is one of my favorite series, despite also being a magical girl. Why? Because Nanoha acts much like I would, and thus I can identify with her. She sees a problem and leaps in, trying as best as she can to resolve it. Heh, in fact, one of the issues people might have with her, is because she acts so mature despite her age (although extra materials expound upon why that is).

So it's not the gender, so much as it is the attitude and personality. Women are generally portrayed as weak crybabies, and only able to act strong if they have a man supporting them, or if they have been scarred strongly by life and thus grown cold.

Of course, Madoka had to be kept weak, otherwise she would have wished the plot fixed in the first episode or two, and there would be no series. :P

The reverse of this is Shinji from Evangelion, who acted like a weak crybaby despite being male. I hated him as a protagonist, too, and was unable to empathize with him much. Although I did understand him a bit more than Madoka, since he was constantly being pushed and controlled by others.

It's apples and oranges to compare Madoka and Nanoha, either in the title characters development or the shows named after them. I don't like comparing the two, but it's inevitable that it happens in these discussions.

Madoka is a story about looking before you leap, playing on the genres tropes of mascots, powers, the very nature of contracting for that power, the role of justice and ethics because of that power, etc. It's a cautionary tale of how seeing a problem and leaping in to help without understanding what is going on beyond the superficiality of the moment can be the worst possible thing to do, and even if it was the right thing to do right then, there are still consequences that must be shouldered.

You can poke at the plot itself and find aspects not handled the way "you, the audience member" would have done it. But you're the observer, living in a different world and with a "God's eye" view of things. You see what the characters don't, which makes it easier to connect dots the characters can't. Of course this doesn't always mean that because you know the plot you can explain the relevance of such things.

Why couldn't Madoka just solve everything in episode two? Because she had no understanding of the nature of the problem. It may have been the "best" solution in the end, but there was no way to know that in episode 2. Madoka and the audience had to be shown why that solution was the "best", and more importantly, how Madoka had learned how to handle the consequences of that choice. Her wish required many different factors that she would not have been ready for in episode 2, that she was ready for in episode 12, because of what she had been through. And of course, that meant she had to be "protected", which is also explained in the plot about why letting her seeing a problem and leaping right in was a very very bad idea.

In Nanoha, the title characters very nature is to plow ahead as an avatar of justice with little consequence for her choices. Everything works out just fine in the end, the damage is fixed with no one the wiser and enemies are dead or befriended. The drama you get is the drama of the moment, with the characters never in serious danger no matter how much damage they take, unless it's the final villain in the climax of the story.

Fate is about as tragic as the story gets, and for a moment the story gets serious in showing how bad she's had it compared to Nanoha who lives a very blessed life in comparison. Once that is explained and resolved, it is rarely relevant again.

The key difference between Nanoha and Madoka, as titles, is that Nanoha is basically the typical magical girl story bent more obviously toward the male audience. It is first and foremost a magical girl story (with a sci-fi tilt later on), and the story is geared toward action before philosophy. Madoka on the other hand is a philosophy story, bent toward the question of what happens when you take the setting of the magical girl genre and base it on warping the tropes built around it. If Nanoha is say....a magical girl story with action cranked up to 11, Madoka is a magical story that screws with the conventions of the genre itself. That isn't to say that Nanoha doesn't play around with the tropes of stories that preceded it, but by and large the tone of Nanoha is still positive and traditional, whereas Madoka is negative and unconventional.

It should also be pointed out that Nanoha has a mountain of material to flesh everything out which Madoka lacks, due to age (Nanoha is almost a decade old now and a much more complete story as a result of an expansive franchise). This makes it even more difficult to compare the two.

Besides all of that, if the biggest complaint is that Madoka is too "girly", maybe it's because too many "strong" women in fiction are basically men in female bodies, often with all of the eye candy and social stereotyping that comes from being oriented toward a male audience.