AnimeSuki Forums

callowmallow · 2004-12-26, 21:41

first of all, probably a thread already, yes? no? if not, probably already talked about to death.... so sorry in advance....

someone wrote me privately because of a huge disagreement with my thinking-- it's cool, that's what forums are for. but i want outside opinions on this.

after a long debate about energy divisions and clone strength i came to this conclusion....

kage bunshin can be looked at like a gun, a revolver for this example, with six bullets. bullets will be chakra and so forth.

six clones and let's say one bullet per gun for this idea.

i get that chakra becomes divided with kage bunshin-- in fact we're all (or should be) certain about this by now.

my point is that all the cloned guns are still REAL guns, just as naruto creates REAL bodies, RIGHT???

throwing the object would still hurt like a mofo right???

in short, don't kage bunshins still pack the same "punch" as the real thing?

*i just think the problem in going with my idea was that the person thought chakra was completely required for taijutsu.... which that it may be in certain extreme cases, but didn't sasuke use a taijutsu kick when he couldn't rely on chakra?

yes yes.... i know kakashi needed extra chakra to climb the mountain, but there have to be regular moves that don't need energy and just use plain muscle, right?*

brassmonkey · 2004-12-26, 23:09

haha yea. i agree totally. i think the chakra divided part only applies to normal people, but naruto has the fox inside him which gives him almost unlimited chakra.. so i think the clones are as good as the real ones

Leolocks · 2004-12-29, 07:03

No, the clones do not pack the same "punch" as the original.
It was said fairly early in the series that clones only possess one tenth of the original's power. Add to that the fact that the clones will be disposed of with a single clear hit, and there's no doubt about it. The original is always much stronger.
I think...

Palani · 2004-12-29, 07:13

In the Naruto Universe Chakra equals physical strength, Chouji increases his Chakra becomes a thousand times stronger, Lee opens his gates, releasing all limitations on the amount of Chakra that flows through his body and he becomes incredibly strong.

Taking this into account dividing someone’s Chakra means dividing someone’s strength. This due to the fact that although the physical result stays the same in the Naruverse a punch seems to be backed up by quite a lot of Chakra, otherwise it wouldn’t be able to increase your strength by increasing Chakra, so although the physical effect of the punch stays the same the total effect is less.

Simple Math

100% physical + 100% Chakra = 200% punch
100% physical + (100/10)* & Chakra = 110% punch.

*Taking for measurement that the Kage Bunshin divides Naruto into 10 equally powered Clones.

callowmallow · 2004-12-29, 09:12

first of all, leolocks, that was only said about zabuza's mizu bunshin when sasuke took down a couple of them. IN FACT, mizu bunshin was SO weak, it could only wander off a couple of feet from the user. naruto and clones versus ebisu and clones all over town? hmm.... .... .... maybe it's a small hidden-village that just looks widespread?

if elemental clones were as powerful as shadow clones, then EVERYONE would drop their jaws when ANYONE made a clone. simple logic, something from something is one thing-- something from nothing?

one-hit bunshin explosions? yup, no doubt, our boy still needs a lot of work, but how dare you forget the third hokage and his battered and shurinken-stabbed clones that could take everything and then some.

secondly, palani, so the naruto rendan can be done with one naruto? one of naruto's punches could've damaged gaara as much as one thousand naruto punches? the non-ninja, non-chakra blessed humans we've seen in the naruto universe were all in my head? naruto, a person blessed with chakra, never gets knocked down because of strength issues? the memories we've seen of naruto doing sittups were secret chakra-building exercises? naruto can choose to build up chakra by working out.... or finishing that last potato chip?

sasuke relying on taijutsu to win his match.... rock lee mad taijutsu skill, but bad chakra skills....

physical strength can be augmented by energy.

in our universe, adrenaline allows a mother to lift a truck off her baby boy's leg, olympic-level athletes to beat records by mere seconds, etc. etc.

but these people can still do normal physical tasks.

Palani · 2004-12-29, 09:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by callowmallow

secondly, palani, so the naruto rendan can be done with one naruto? one of naruto's punches could've damaged gaara as much as one thousand naruto punches? the non-ninja, non-chakra blessed humans we've seen in the naruto universe were all in my head? naruto, a person blessed with chakra, never gets knocked down because of strength issues? the memories we've seen of naruto doing sittups were secret chakra-building exercises? naruto can choose to build up chakra by working out.... or finishing that last potato chip?

sasuke relying on taijutsu to win his match.... rock lee mad taijutsu skill, but bad chakra skills....

physical strength can be augmented by energy.

in our universe, adrenaline allows a mother to lift a truck off her baby boy's leg, olympic-level athletes to beat records by mere seconds, etc. etc.

but these people can still do normal physical tasks.

The Naruto Rendan relies on the Effect of a lot of Unblockable punches, Gaara was well capable of blocking one of Naruto's straight forward power punches so he used his clones to set up a thousand all less powerful punches but resulting in the same effect. Never heard of the fact that doing something ten times less intensive can get you the same result as doing something once but with great intensity.

As too the training, a punch is nothing without physical energy backing it up. You still have to have strength in order to be able to fight well. Look at Sakura, Lots of Chakra control, no physical strength, Useless. As to Rock Lee, he is a special case, with that determination and training a lot of people in the Naruverse could become much stronger. Though I’m certain that he’d get his ass handed to him by someone who properly balances Chakra and physical energy.

I’m not saying that when you have Chakra you don’t have to be physically strong or vice versa. They are two sides of the same medal, you have to have both in order to be effective.

callowmallow · 2004-12-29, 09:30

to your first paragraph

never considered.... nice

Palani · 2004-12-29, 09:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by callowmallow

to your first paragraph

never considered.... nice

No problem, it's a nice discussion.

attony · 2004-12-29, 20:26

Well, Naruto probably has enough chakra to be a senin, let me just assume that he has 1000 chakra units total.
Due to the gates limiting the ninja from using too much chakra, and since Naruto's body hasn't been fully trained, Naruto probably can only use 10 chakra at a time.

By making 90 clones, each clone would have 11 chakra, but each clone's body still has the same gates limitations, meaning only 10 chakra can be used at a time.

Now by having 90 clones, that means he can exert 90x10 chakra units at one single moment, so actually 900 of his 1000 total chakra is being used instead of just 10 chakra units from before.

As for why his clones dissapear from one punch, it's probably just because he hasn't mastered the jutsu. From the begining of the story, the only time he practiced the jutsu was the short time that he has the scroll with the forbidden jutsus. He just needs more practice and training to make the clones much more useful.

raikage · 2004-12-29, 20:42

I look at it a little differently.

Let's say that Naruto (standard strength - no chakra boost) can lift 150 pounds (68 kg).

Then, using ten units of chakra, he can now lift 800 pounds (363 kg).

Nothing new here, pretty much something along the lines of what we were all thinking, right?

But - what seems to be missing here is the fact that Naruto cannot run all 1000 units of chakra through his body at once. Whether his limit is 5, 10, 100 is almost irrelevant, as we know (or have strong indications) that the amount of power we've seen so far isn't nearly his limit. He's a garden hose attached to a fire hydrant.

Quick solution? More garden hoses coming out of the hydrant increases the total amount of water (or chakra) able to be used at any specific moment.

We've seen hivemind-like behavior from Naruto and his clones. When they surprised Zabuza, the clone knew to throw Naruto to Sasuke.
Against Neji, one specific clone deliberately stood out to draw Hyuuga's attention.
In the most recent episode, Naruto clones attacked Kidomaru while the real one stayed in retreat.

I think that Naruto, to some extent, controls the clones. With this in mind, perhaps the real Naruto feels pain whenever a clone is injured, and they will dissipate if his concentration is broken.

This would also explain why Naruto's clones lasted so long during the Forest when he became Team 7 + Kabuto for the whole night - he didn't have to spread his mind across so many bodies at once.

ChainLegacy · 2004-12-29, 20:50

One thing I've noticed throughout the series is that Naruto's clones are pretty much always useless. I've yet to see them do anything of worth in a difficult battle. This is why I believe they don't even come close to their creator's power.

-|(aGe-BuNsHiN- · 2004-12-30, 10:33

I think the clones are weaker because if anyone remembers when Naruto was getting trained by Jiraya (sp?), he made a whole bunch of clones to kill chakra and was going to fight all of them...I doubt the real Naruto could have survived so many of himself who were equal to his strength...but then again...this is THE anime series Naruto so anything can happen.

Palani · 2004-12-30, 10:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by -|(aGe-BuNsHiN-

I think the clones are weaker because if anyone remembers when Naruto was getting trained by Jiraya (sp?), he made a whole bunch of clones to kill chakra and was going to fight all of them...I doubt the real Naruto could have survived so many of himself who were equal to his strength...but then again...this is THE anime series Naruto so anything can happen.

I think they were just sparring. Even Naruto won't try something as iditioc as to try and Kill himself.

Hisoka?? · 2004-12-31, 01:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by -|(aGe-BuNsHiN-

I think the clones are weaker because if anyone remembers when Naruto was getting trained by Jiraya (sp?), he made a whole bunch of clones to kill chakra and was going to fight all of them...I doubt the real Naruto could have survived so many of himself who were equal to his strength...but then again...this is THE anime series Naruto so anything can happen.

actually they were sparring and also it was not 100 fakes vs one real naruto it was like a 101 threat match( analogy to triple threat match if you watch or used to watch wrestling), it was a multi-way fight and not 100 clone ganging up against the real guy

sorry if i seem to be repeating myself above, my english sucks big time and thus the inability to express myself clearly and concisely.

iceyfw · 2004-12-31, 01:28

I'm still wondering about this, so I'm going to ask you guys in this topic. Could all the Kage Bunshins made by Naruto release Kyuubi's chakra? We haven't seen a single episode where a Kage Bunshin releases the chakra. I'm not a manga reader so I only watch the anime.

budak · 2004-12-31, 02:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by IcExAlcHeMy

I'm still wondering about this, so I'm going to ask you guys in this topic. Could all the Kage Bunshins made by Naruto release Kyuubi's chakra? We haven't seen a single episode where a Kage Bunshin releases the chakra. I'm not a manga reader so I only watch the anime.

in the 40 minutes movie or something about the holy water, the cloned naruto have the kyubi chakra around them(which is of course, cool, yeah) and they punched dat guys face to death

iceyfw · 2004-12-31, 02:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by budak

in the 40 minutes movie or something about the holy water, the cloned naruto have the kyubi chakra around them(which is of course, cool, yeah) and they punched dat guys face to death

That was not a Kage Bunshin, but Naruto himself. Are you alrite?

callowmallow · 2004-12-31, 04:45

jump festa? hero water? right?

but wow. that's something to consider.

if they could tap into kyuubi's chakra, naruto's clone-aided attacks could get crazy.

considering that it's an almost infinite energy source.... the clones could "recharge," or be at 100%, during a battle-- hell, they might not even run out of juice. but not just endurance-wise, theoretically, they could all do a full powered rasengan.... or other techniques, god forbid naruto learn anything new.

complich8 · 2004-12-31, 09:46

Kagebunshins are real corporeal replications, and from what we've been told chakra is divided evenly among them ... so of course if you do a 99 clone kagebunshin no jutsu they'll each have 1/100 of your chakra, and you'll have 1/100 of your starting chakra left. But the real question is ... what happens when a clone takes a hit?

Does the chakra just dissipate? Does it return to the user? Or does some part of it return? If so, how much? and over how long?

Naruto throws that technique around a LOT... but every time he does does that mean he's chopping his overall chakra, what's accessible to him into a tiny fraction of what he started with? Would it be reasonable to assume that his "Naruto Rendan" in the Gaara fight resulted in him having less than a tenth of one percent of his chakra remaining?

I think that this tries to make the technique too mathematical though. Chakra is not just some mp-meter, it's not a digital readout, it's not even a dial. Chakra is a living part of the person. It grows, it flexes, it fluctuates, it moves ... I don't honestly think it's a good idea to apply essentially mathematical concepts to it. Remember that the universe we're talking about has no obligation to be self-consistent from one minute to the next.

-|(aGe-BuNsHiN- · 2004-12-31, 19:01

I think chakra is distributed which ever way Naruto wants it to be. When Naruto was fighting Neji, he spread it evenly so Neji won't know which one is the real one. However, I doubt you HAVE to spread it evenly because its pretty impractical then.

All in all, my idea is that the chakra that Naruto wants to use for the bunshins is the amount that is split.

2004-12-26, 21:41	Link #1
callowmallow Freshman Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Las Vegas, NV Age: 37	kage bunshin blah blah blah first of all, probably a thread already, yes? no? if not, probably already talked about to death.... so sorry in advance.... someone wrote me privately because of a huge disagreement with my thinking-- it's cool, that's what forums are for. but i want outside opinions on this. after a long debate about energy divisions and clone strength i came to this conclusion.... kage bunshin can be looked at like a gun, a revolver for this example, with six bullets. bullets will be chakra and so forth. six clones and let's say one bullet per gun for this idea. i get that chakra becomes divided with kage bunshin-- in fact we're all (or should be) certain about this by now. my point is that all the cloned guns are still REAL guns, just as naruto creates REAL bodies, RIGHT??? throwing the object would still hurt like a mofo right??? in short, don't kage bunshins still pack the same "punch" as the real thing? i just think the problem in going with my idea was that the person thought chakra was completely required for taijutsu.... which that it may be in certain extreme cases, but didn't sasuke use a taijutsu kick when he couldn't rely on chakra? yes yes.... i know kakashi needed extra chakra to climb the mountain, but there have to be regular moves that don't need energy and just use plain muscle, right?

2004-12-26, 23:09	Link #2
brassmonkey Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003	haha yea. i agree totally. i think the chakra divided part only applies to normal people, but naruto has the fox inside him which gives him almost unlimited chakra.. so i think the clones are as good as the real ones

2004-12-29, 07:03	Link #3
Leolocks [flaming magnolia] Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Stjørdal, Norway	No, the clones do not pack the same "punch" as the original. It was said fairly early in the series that clones only possess one tenth of the original's power. Add to that the fact that the clones will be disposed of with a single clear hit, and there's no doubt about it. The original is always much stronger. I think...

2004-12-29, 07:13	Link #4
Palani ///_^ Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Mushroom County, Mario World Age: 36	In the Naruto Universe Chakra equals physical strength, Chouji increases his Chakra becomes a thousand times stronger, Lee opens his gates, releasing all limitations on the amount of Chakra that flows through his body and he becomes incredibly strong. Taking this into account dividing someone’s Chakra means dividing someone’s strength. This due to the fact that although the physical result stays the same in the Naruverse a punch seems to be backed up by quite a lot of Chakra, otherwise it wouldn’t be able to increase your strength by increasing Chakra, so although the physical effect of the punch stays the same the total effect is less. Simple Math 100% physical + 100% Chakra = 200% punch 100% physical + (100/10)* & Chakra = 110% punch. *Taking for measurement that the Kage Bunshin divides Naruto into 10 equally powered Clones.

2004-12-29, 09:12	Link #5
callowmallow Freshman Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Las Vegas, NV Age: 37	first of all, leolocks, that was only said about zabuza's mizu bunshin when sasuke took down a couple of them. IN FACT, mizu bunshin was SO weak, it could only wander off a couple of feet from the user. naruto and clones versus ebisu and clones all over town? hmm.... .... .... maybe it's a small hidden-village that just looks widespread? if elemental clones were as powerful as shadow clones, then EVERYONE would drop their jaws when ANYONE made a clone. simple logic, something from something is one thing-- something from nothing? one-hit bunshin explosions? yup, no doubt, our boy still needs a lot of work, but how dare you forget the third hokage and his battered and shurinken-stabbed clones that could take everything and then some. secondly, palani, so the naruto rendan can be done with one naruto? one of naruto's punches could've damaged gaara as much as one thousand naruto punches? the non-ninja, non-chakra blessed humans we've seen in the naruto universe were all in my head? naruto, a person blessed with chakra, never gets knocked down because of strength issues? the memories we've seen of naruto doing sittups were secret chakra-building exercises? naruto can choose to build up chakra by working out.... or finishing that last potato chip? sasuke relying on taijutsu to win his match.... rock lee mad taijutsu skill, but bad chakra skills.... physical strength can be augmented by energy. in our universe, adrenaline allows a mother to lift a truck off her baby boy's leg, olympic-level athletes to beat records by mere seconds, etc. etc. but these people can still do normal physical tasks.

2004-12-29, 09:30	Link #7
callowmallow Freshman Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Las Vegas, NV Age: 37	to your first paragraph never considered.... nice

2004-12-29, 20:26	Link #9
attony Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2004	Well, Naruto probably has enough chakra to be a senin, let me just assume that he has 1000 chakra units total. Due to the gates limiting the ninja from using too much chakra, and since Naruto's body hasn't been fully trained, Naruto probably can only use 10 chakra at a time. By making 90 clones, each clone would have 11 chakra, but each clone's body still has the same gates limitations, meaning only 10 chakra can be used at a time. Now by having 90 clones, that means he can exert 90x10 chakra units at one single moment, so actually 900 of his 1000 total chakra is being used instead of just 10 chakra units from before. As for why his clones dissapear from one punch, it's probably just because he hasn't mastered the jutsu. From the begining of the story, the only time he practiced the jutsu was the short time that he has the scroll with the forbidden jutsus. He just needs more practice and training to make the clones much more useful.

2004-12-29, 20:42	Link #10
raikage 日本語を食べません！ Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: San Francisco Age: 41	I look at it a little differently. Let's say that Naruto (standard strength - no chakra boost) can lift 150 pounds (68 kg). Then, using ten units of chakra, he can now lift 800 pounds (363 kg). Nothing new here, pretty much something along the lines of what we were all thinking, right? But - what seems to be missing here is the fact that Naruto cannot run all 1000 units of chakra through his body at once. Whether his limit is 5, 10, 100 is almost irrelevant, as we know (or have strong indications) that the amount of power we've seen so far isn't nearly his limit. He's a garden hose attached to a fire hydrant. Quick solution? More garden hoses coming out of the hydrant increases the total amount of water (or chakra) able to be used at any specific moment. We've seen hivemind-like behavior from Naruto and his clones. When they surprised Zabuza, the clone knew to throw Naruto to Sasuke. Against Neji, one specific clone deliberately stood out to draw Hyuuga's attention. In the most recent episode, Naruto clones attacked Kidomaru while the real one stayed in retreat. I think that Naruto, to some extent, controls the clones. With this in mind, perhaps the real Naruto feels pain whenever a clone is injured, and they will dissipate if his concentration is broken. This would also explain why Naruto's clones lasted so long during the Forest when he became Team 7 + Kabuto for the whole night - he didn't have to spread his mind across so many bodies at once.

2004-12-29, 20:50	Link #11
ChainLegacy 廉頗 Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Massachusetts Age: 34	One thing I've noticed throughout the series is that Naruto's clones are pretty much always useless. I've yet to see them do anything of worth in a difficult battle. This is why I believe they don't even come close to their creator's power.

2004-12-30, 10:33	Link #12
-\|(aGe-BuNsHiN- Vandread Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: I LOVE NEW YORK cough* my ass cough* Age: 37	I think the clones are weaker because if anyone remembers when Naruto was getting trained by Jiraya (sp?), he made a whole bunch of clones to kill chakra and was going to fight all of them...I doubt the real Naruto could have survived so many of himself who were equal to his strength...but then again...this is THE anime series Naruto so anything can happen.

2004-12-31, 01:28	Link #15
iceyfw Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Age: 35	I'm still wondering about this, so I'm going to ask you guys in this topic. Could all the Kage Bunshins made by Naruto release Kyuubi's chakra? We haven't seen a single episode where a Kage Bunshin releases the chakra. I'm not a manga reader so I only watch the anime.

2004-12-31, 04:45	Link #18
callowmallow Freshman Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Las Vegas, NV Age: 37	jump festa? hero water? right? but wow. that's something to consider. if they could tap into kyuubi's chakra, naruto's clone-aided attacks could get crazy. considering that it's an almost infinite energy source.... the clones could "recharge," or be at 100%, during a battle-- hell, they might not even run out of juice. but not just endurance-wise, theoretically, they could all do a full powered rasengan.... or other techniques, god forbid naruto learn anything new.

2004-12-31, 09:46	Link #19
complich8 Fansubber Emeritus Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Rockville, MD Age: 43	Kagebunshins are real corporeal replications, and from what we've been told chakra is divided evenly among them ... so of course if you do a 99 clone kagebunshin no jutsu they'll each have 1/100 of your chakra, and you'll have 1/100 of your starting chakra left. But the real question is ... what happens when a clone takes a hit? Does the chakra just dissipate? Does it return to the user? Or does some part of it return? If so, how much? and over how long? Naruto throws that technique around a LOT... but every time he does does that mean he's chopping his overall chakra, what's accessible to him into a tiny fraction of what he started with? Would it be reasonable to assume that his "Naruto Rendan" in the Gaara fight resulted in him having less than a tenth of one percent of his chakra remaining? I think that this tries to make the technique too mathematical though. Chakra is not just some mp-meter, it's not a digital readout, it's not even a dial. Chakra is a living part of the person. It grows, it flexes, it fluctuates, it moves ... I don't honestly think it's a good idea to apply essentially mathematical concepts to it. Remember that the universe we're talking about has no obligation to be self-consistent from one minute to the next.

2004-12-31, 19:01	Link #20
-\|(aGe-BuNsHiN- Vandread Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: I LOVE NEW YORK cough* my ass cough* Age: 37	I think chakra is distributed which ever way Naruto wants it to be. When Naruto was fighting Neji, he spread it evenly so Neji won't know which one is the real one. However, I doubt you HAVE to spread it evenly because its pretty impractical then. All in all, my idea is that the chakra that Naruto wants to use for the bunshins is the amount that is split.