Abortion right or wrong

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Do you not take life when you kill a plant or squish an ant?

It's all in how you justify your logic.

[Aoie_Emesai]

Originally Posted by Solace

It's all in how you justify your logic.

True. But I would assume most people wouldn't consider an average everyday plant or ant a substantial form of life...

[ApostleOfGod]

It always comes to this when abortion is the subject. Can't argue though, I do understand that everyone has different thoughts about this. I know it didn't seem so in my other post though. That was just me ranting off in sheer favour of what I perceive to be justice. But hear me out, when I say that All of the arguments made in this thread are probably valid and what I can agree with; I discredit none of them, although I condemn some for trying to justify a murderous act. And yes, I'm aware of all the questions, such as "when does life really start" or "what if the labour could potentially cause danger to both woman and baby?" and so on.

Originally Posted by Vexx

Sorry but calling something a "baby" is just playing an emotional card because people attach all sorts of symbolism to the term that doesn't necessarily apply to a cluster of cells that may have no neural net and nothing we could call "memory" or "experience". Your other arguments are bit specious and subject to riposte (e.g. what if it had been you - then d'uh I wouldn't be here but that's a parallel universe isn't it?) Non-starter (again, Google finds us much more eloquent arguments for and against).
In essence, you're saying that a woman is not in control of her own body - which is odd because the females of most all species control the output of a pregnancy in various ways (much more bluntly, of course) in response to environmental conditions. This is when most women I've ever encountered (pro or con) say, "like hell its up to the men to decide".

Kyuusai and Irenicus present better arguments in terms of "soul" but that comes down to pure belief since we cannot test for it.

Before the next poster rockets off - personally, I think the safest card is the best contraception we can develop to avoid the "terrible choice" in the first place. Follow that up with some miraculous way of transferring fetuses to someone that wants it. Then everyone is happy (except those who think pregnancy is some sort of divine punishment for having sex).

Let's not go off somewhere else. While the fetus may be nothing but a "cluster of cells", so are you. And so am I, as you go on to remind me. Yes, I did say what if it was you. It was in the sense of empathy, putting yourself in the shoes of another Person. A baby will become that person.

Don't mistaken. The original meaning of that post there was so I can get a clear message throughout first. That wasn't there for the intent of argument, hence why I've said not to put out the it depends card. But then again, it wouldn't be fair if I had things my way.

Back on topic. Trust me when I say this man - I have full respect for women. Full respect. Heck, as weird it may sound to some, I'm one of those guys that would try to converse with a prostitute and get to know her so I can help her. As for the woman not being in control of her own body, I feel that it is a given that the woman is obligated to take care of another life spawned within her. Us men can't do it. Women have the right to do what they want. But when it comes to another life form becoming involved, it gets more complicated. The responsibilities kick in, and a woman shouldn't be able to decide to have the baby killed - it Is her baby, but it Isn't her life.

Once again, my post wasn't intended for argument, and even if it was, it was a good presentation of a brief background of the idea. I've also given examples of people - theories fall before the ones who made them. The case of the murderer getting charged on two accounts of murder for killing a woman and an unborn baby, yet abortion being free and legal, as well as the daughter of a 15 year old raped girl who doesn't even know her biological father, out there trying to stop abortion. Before we get into a big theoretical discussion in this forum, I ask anyone reading this to respond these two issues I just brought up. Anyone. Just comment on it. These are real people, doing real things out there, regardless of what government, beliefs, morals, and other factors say. I prefer to walk the walk than talk the talk. Don't we all in reality?

Funny how you worded the last part. I actually like it - it brings up another subject in relation to abortion, more like a prerequisite - Sex!

To answer the questions from earlier, such as the potential danger of delivering the baby (i.e. Hemorrhage), well, there's more than one method of conception. Thus, the miraculous solution of transferring fetuses would be unnecessary - especially because people who have the option of aborting or keeping the baby probably wouldn't consider transfering fetuses anyway.

I'm sorry if my "arguments" weren't eloquent enough for you, or more "soul" oriented, but I don't think anyone wants me to really go into depth - spirituality's point of view just gets rippled anyways. The struggle to prevent abortion in itself reflects a spiritual point of view. They're common. Nevertheless, everyone presenting their experiences and ideas are correct. Their "arguments" if you'd like to classify it as such, are valid. I'll even send a shoutout to everyone and verify, and present my comments.

Kamui4356 - I agree. I shouldn't enforce all of my ideals on everyone. However, this is a global issue which needs to be more/less come to agreement with. When it comes to letting that clump of cells become someone like me or you, or let it die, I would say yes. There are different scenarios and exceptions which I'd have to cohere to as well. But for the generics, having the baby and putting it up for adoption is at best. And no, you're not taking any baits. All love man.

Daniel E. - That's interesting. Once again, a perspective which I didn't look at. But I do feel that there are more people out there who are more interested in the adoption aspect before getting into the origins of the baby. If a couple really wants a baby, I'm confident that not everyone would be the pickiest people about it.

Sorrow K - Once again, all I can say is that I agree for the most part. However, when it come to population and shortages, I believe there are other methods than having to abort every baby to solve that problem. I think you're aware of this too. Also, a woman should not be forced to have the baby if her will completely bends against it. But that really depends on the leadup scenario of the issue. You can't always have things your way - I really can't judge though. If she was a rape victim faced with traumatic disorders and extreme abnormalities and all, I'm not so certain that the baby is to blame there. The effects of rape are deep. Stainless scars, yet they stay with you forever, and you can't wash it off. By killing the baby, you won't escape the memories. I still would encourage the woman to win over the hardships, even if that may sound silly to some of you. I still do consider that the life of an unborn baby is on the line, trying to be understanding and empathetic for those who can't defend themselves.

Spectacular_Insanity, Kang Seung Jae, - I'll agree. Seems like there are similarities in our stances.

To speed up the process, I also agree with Phantom (great insight), Tiger II (who's story is very interesting and yet a whole different view of the issue), and mxg.

Aoie_Emesai, and Reckoner - This is where I disagree. I assume you'd read a portion of my post by the time you reach this point, so I won't go on to repeat everything again. But Aoie, I'll soften up right now to tell you that I personally find that cruel and uncompassionate, how you conclude that since you control the body, even if the action is killing the baby, it's fine. I ask that if you have not yet seen how abortion process is held, please revise it. Just finding pictures of how it is done is enough. A 2-3 week old fetus is enough, 3 months would be great.

And Reckoner.. I find your arguments to make sense, but if you were a baby that was given life by a mother in an uncertain situation, who could have aborted you instead, and found out that she put you up for a better life, would you condemn your biological mother for "abandoning" you? And for your recent post, I really have to ask.

Since when did the life value of humans compare to that of a plan or an ant? Do you see your life valued the same as such lower forms of life compared to our state of beings?

If Anyone found any offense in my post, I humbly apologise / apologize. I ain't putting this up for flaming. Also, be lenient with me if I don't respond to your posts - it took me enough time to respond to everyone already, and I know it will rebound to me in ten fold. But I put down a lot on the table, more living examples rather than theoretical, because it works better for a life and death matter like this can be related to by an individual. For people like Tiger II, who've had the experiences, I always say first hand experience is more accurate than second. Thus, I hope no one takes offense to what I've written.

I'll finish with rainnydaiis' post.

Originally Posted by rainnydaiis

Considering this is a debate that will probably never end due to all the peoples different opinions of it. Either it be because of religion or just self belief's. I mean when debating this people will bring up like what if the person got raped, or what if the mom will die if she doesn't abort.

Mainly in my opinion is that everyone has a choice, so it be rather abortion or not its solely up to the person to decide. Back in LA I knew someone who got raped and still decided to keep the baby because of her beliefs. There are also other people who just get abortion because they know its the right choice at their point in life. "its up to the person"

Assuming that we all knew this was true from the start and we can agree to this, I still say everyone has a role and a part to contribute in such a topic. Certainly, many major issues, such as abortion, are interrelated with others in modern society. Thus, because there is such a diverse dividend of opinions, should we throw it off as 'you decide'? I still say no. And that's not because I want to emphasize that my method and ways of thinking is more correct - everyone here is correct as I've said. The thing is, when it comes to life and death, forget the arguments for a second. Forget everything else. In reality... Life and death ladies and gents. Life and death. That's all it comes down to. I simply choose life for the sole reason that it is Life. Something I am grateful to keep. Even during the harsh times. You see, that's the wonderful thing. Regardless of good times or bad times, I am given the opportunity to experience. With abortion, as you've said Vexx, there is no experience or memory. Let us not take on the role of God or the Gods, and decide for ourselves who should be allowed to live and who shouldn't.

Thanks to anyone who's actually read to this point, even if very briefly. Hopefully I managed to do something...


P.S. The longest post I've made in AS. Wow..
And feel free to correct me, I don't think I'm the smartest guy anyway.

[Sorrow-K]

Originally Posted by ApostleOfGod

Sorrow K - Once again, all I can say is that I agree for the most part. However, when it come to population and shortages, I believe there are other methods than having to abort every baby to solve that problem. I think you're aware of this too. Also, a woman should not be forced to have the baby if her will completely bends against it. But that really depends on the leadup scenario of the issue. You can't always have things your way - I really can't judge though. If she was a rape victim faced with traumatic disorders and extreme abnormalities and all, I'm not so certain that the baby is to blame there. The effects of rape are deep. Stainless scars, yet they stay with you forever, and you can't wash it off. By killing the baby, you won't escape the memories. I still would encourage the woman to win over the hardships, even if that may sound silly to some of you. I still do consider that the life of an unborn baby is on the line, trying to be understanding and empathetic for those who can't defend themselves.

Look, that wasn't really what I was trying to say. What I was trying to say is that pregnancy and childbirth are not things that should be taken lightly in any circumstance, and that population is just one of a plethora reasons why the decision should be carefully considered in every variety of case, and why people should have as many options available as they can. If people don't think they can responsibly have a child, and feel they made a mistake by conceiving in the first place, then they should have the option available to abort. Same goes with rape victims. I don't think we should force them to have to live with the horrendous trauma of having a daily reminder if they don't think they can... if aborting makes it easier for someone to cope with being a victim of rape, then again that option should at least be available.

[Vexx]

@apostleofgod: And one of your best I've seen .... very good post. More of this kind of thing from all corners is good.

[Gemstar]

For the people that think abortion is correct. Imagine if you were that baby that was being aborted how would you feel about that. How is destroying that baby's life different from killing someone ? Wouldn't that person be sent to jail ? Isn't it a law to not kill and even a commandment ? The baby does not even have a choice in the matter. How can you make that choice for the baby. Don't you feel sorry for taking a life or for the baby ? Or do you even feel sorry for the people who feel sorry for the baby that could have grown into a respectable person who could have friendships, have a good time make a kool joke etc =(

[Cherudim Arche]

Originally Posted by Gemstar

For the people that think abortion is correct. Imagine if you were that baby that was being aborted how would you feel about that. How is destroying that baby's life different from killing someone ? Wouldn't that person be sent to jail ? Isn't it a law to not kill and even a commandment ? The baby does not even have a choice in the matter. How can you make that choice for the baby. Don't you feel sorry for taking a life or for the baby ? Or do you even feel sorry for the people who feel sorry for the baby that could have grown into a respectable person who could have friendships, have a good time make a kool joke etc =(

That is why I prefer making judgment based on the situation, not on wither it is right or wrong. I find that everything else puts in unnecessary complex factors to take account of.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Sorrow-K

if aborting makes it easier for someone to cope with being a victim of rape, then again that option should at least be available.

I think that problem will soon be solved to satisfy everyone, by transferring the aborted being to a place where it can continue to breathe. This will make both sides happy. The aborting mother will get rid of the thing inside her, and the pro-lifers will be able to keep it. The cost will be an issue, but, I guess conservatives wouldn't mind paying within their taxes to make that happen. After that, the only question is whether the aborting mother would have a say of no in that case. She will be given a choice but that choice will not be different than a mother's choice of giving the child to an adoption agency.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Gemstar

For the people that think abortion is correct. Imagine if you were that baby that was being aborted how would you feel about that. ...

I hate to ask... but.... did you read all the posts before your post?

[mg1942]

The O.P. has spoken...

[Sorrow-K]

Originally Posted by Gemstar

Isn't it a law to not kill and even a commandment ?

Is it at all possible to keep religion out of this discussion? I mean, is it just too much to ask?

I'm not trying to insult people's belief systems, I just want to know if it's at all possible to avoid falling back on beliefs that aren't shared by everyone. I mean, you can argue about moral and ethical ambiguities, and causes and effects and statistics and the emotional impact involved in this topic. We can have an open discussion about such things and exchange ideas and opinions. But you can't really argue with beliefs...

[Gemstar]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Do you not take life when you kill a plant or squish an ant?

If you can justify that statement then you can also justify that it is ok to commit crimes and kill people. In the court room all the criminals would use that sentence to get away with murder.

[Astrana]

it should be tolerable the first 3 month at mother's will.
well, there is no right or wrong...
victim of sexual assault, people with financial problems...
I know someone had an abortion, she was unemployed atm and her boy friend/now husband were in school with an huge ass government loan. So they decided to have an abortion during very early stage of the pregnancy. Even thou they are christian and are not in favor of abortion, but they cannot really do anything. If the baby were kept, her husband would be forced to quit school with a 50 thousand loan, work at some shitty ass places, making minimum wages trying to support the family

[Li Jianliang]

I think people commenting in the topic (other than the OP, perhaps) already have made up their minds on the topic, and I doubt anyone would be convinced of the opposite view.

There are far too many ways to analyze the issue, like philosophically, humanistically, from a biological, moral, religious, societal view, etc.

Personally, I do not believe it is wrong. I see it as a choice. What is so wrong with making it available as an option? It's not like the day after declaring it's 'right' people will hold a massive Abortion Parade and every girl will rush to sign up for an abortion appointment. Certainly, it holds grave weight as it is, in a medical standpoint, a surgery. I doubt anyone would agree to surgical procedures without careful consideration and research first. Of course, there are always those outliers in society who will abuse the right and make it look horrid. News doesn't report much of peace after all.

[Gemstar]

Originally Posted by Li Jianliang

I think people commenting in the topic (other than the OP, perhaps) already have made up their minds on the topic, and I doubt anyone would be convinced of the opposite view.

There are far too many ways to analyze the issue, like philosophically, humanistically, from a biological, moral, religious, societal view, etc.

Personally, I do not believe it is wrong. I see it as a choice. What is so wrong with making it available as an option? It's not like the day after declaring it's 'right' people will hold a massive Abortion Parade and every girl will rush to sign up for an abortion appointment. Certainly, it holds grave weight as it is, in a medical standpoint, a surgery. I doubt anyone would agree to surgical procedures without careful consideration and research first. Of course, there are always those outliers in society who will abuse the right and make it look horrid. News doesn't report much of peace after all.

I agree with this at a certain degree but cannot find a reason to disagree with you. I can see where you are coming from and create support for what you have just said with this. I would see it as a parasite ok. Something living inside of you and you would like to get rid of it. I suppose this is why that abortion is a legal thing and it is not such a big fuss or is it legal ?
I can also respect people's opinons when they say it is a decision. But I can also feel why people would say not to get rid of it. Personally I would never know or you guys( I mean males here ) may never know because you guys are not females. Maybe only when it really happens to one then their perception and views upon it may change.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Gemstar

For the people that think abortion is correct. Imagine if you were that baby that was being aborted how would you feel about that. How is destroying that baby's life different from killing someone ? Wouldn't that person be sent to jail ? Isn't it a law to not kill and even a commandment ? The baby does not even have a choice in the matter. How can you make that choice for the baby. Don't you feel sorry for taking a life or for the baby ? Or do you even feel sorry for the people who feel sorry for the baby that could have grown into a respectable person who could have friendships, have a good time make a kool joke etc =(

To paraphrase Peter Singer (and to choose the most impersonal moral answer that makes abortion morally permissible):

Arguments for or against abortion should be set-up as utilitarian calculation which weights the preferences of the mother versus the preferences of the fetus. A preference, for those who do not know, is anything an individual wishes to attain, or anything an individual wishes to avoid. All forms of benefit are harm to an individual correspond to the success or prevention of an individual's preference. Since the basis of a preference is the capacity to experience suffering or satisfaction, and a fetus (up to 14-18 weeks) can not feel satisfaction or suffering (or anything), it is not possible for a fetus to hold any preference. Consequently, to finish the utilitarian calculation, since the fetus has no preference, it need not be considered in a utilitarian calculation, and therefore the woman's preference is all that need be considered, so abortion is morally permissible. So, the death of a fetus is not equivalent to killing an adult.

(If I missed any point is Singer's argument, someone please feel free to add to the discussion. I should also mention that I am not a big fan of Singer or utilitarianism and its consequentialism, I simply felt like providing the most valid yet impersonal answer I could )

[Spectacular_Insanity]

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

I think that problem will soon be solved to satisfy everyone, by transferring the aborted being to a place where it can continue to breathe. This will make both sides happy. The aborting mother will get rid of the thing inside her, and the pro-lifers will be able to keep it. The cost will be an issue, but, I guess conservatives wouldn't mind paying within their taxes to make that happen. After that, the only question is whether the aborting mother would have a say of no in that case. She will be given a choice but that choice will not be different than a mother's choice of giving the child to an adoption agency.

I hate to rain on your parade, but I don't think this is even within the realm of feasable technology. Are you saying grow the baby in a tank? Not that this would necessarily be a bad thing if the circumstances were dire enough, but I doubt it's practical (or even possible), regardless of funding.

[Ermes Marana]

The most confusing thing to me is why this is a religious issue.

The bible never says abortion is wrong.

Quite the opposite. The bible says that if you attack a pregnant woman and kill the fetus, then you are not guilty of taking a life, and you only need to pay a fine.

However if you kill the mother, you get the death penalty. "A life for a life."


Personally, even though the bible is pro-abortion, I think it is wrong after a certain amount of development. It is hard to decide the exact amount of development, and I am not a biologist, so I won't try.

[Aoie_Emesai]

Originally Posted by ApostleOfGod

Aoie_Emesai, and Reckoner - This is where I disagree. I assume you'd read a portion of my post by the time you reach this point, so I won't go on to repeat everything again. But Aoie, I'll soften up right now to tell you that I personally find that cruel and uncompassionate, how you conclude that since you control the body, even if the action is killing the baby, it's fine. I ask that if you have not yet seen how abortion process is held, please revise it. Just finding pictures of how it is done is enough. A 2-3 week old fetus is enough, 3 months would be great.

Well... that's my belief on this topic. Also when ever this topic pops out on the forums i visit or else where. This topic is just as open to debate as "the purpose of life" and at the moment, judgement on this is nothing to me than a comparison on a person personal beliefs on different opposing side of the ball park. Of course you are correct, and I believe with all myself, we shouldn't go about murdering without any cause or just cause.

But I doubt i'm as humanitarian as you are, Apostle.

Went to refresh myself on some of the processes too ^^

Originally Posted by Gemstar

For the people that think abortion is correct. Imagine if you were that baby that was being aborted how would you feel about that. How is destroying that baby's life different from killing someone ? Wouldn't that person be sent to jail ? Isn't it a law to not kill and even a commandment ? The baby does not even have a choice in the matter. How can you make that choice for the baby. Don't you feel sorry for taking a life or for the baby ? Or do you even feel sorry for the people who feel sorry for the baby that could have grown into a respectable person who could have friendships, have a good time make a kool joke etc =(

What situation would I have recently been in for the spouse to suddenly want to get an abortion?

Wife/Girlfriend : Ohhh... honey, i'm sorry. Your kid was a mistake, we shouldn't have had sex? I'm getting an abortion.

~~Other than that situation, I can't think of one. Well... maybe if I raped someone and I wanted the child for myself, but I don't think i'll be in that situation.

~ A friendly debate is the best way to go.

[Ascaloth]

This topic again, huh? I've seen this debate so many times in my life, that at this point the only real viewpoint I can hold anymore is "To each her own, to each her own...."