Moe fans: what shows and characters do you like and why?

[Vexx]

However there must be some sort of constant to define what "moe" is.
I think this discussion would be a lot more interesting if people tried to explain the difference between:

Cute girl
Beautiful girl
Sexy girl
Moe girl

Sometimes the best way to define something is to explain why it's different from the rest.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the "constant" is the *feeling* created in the viewer. The fact that individuals may have quite different objects that cause that feeling (which seems to drive a lot of the disagreement). The term "moe-blob" contributed to the problem by reinforcing the notion that moe is some intrinsic property rather than the viewer's reaction.

Flower's comparison to "what is tasty?" is good... because Japan also caused science to recognize there are *five* basic tastes rather than *four* (sweet, sour, bitter, salty, and amami). "moe" is a feeling not properly covered by other words for various emotional responses.

As for "cute, beautiful, sexy, moe" ... I'd argue moe is inherently not part of that list; and that the first 3 terms can overlap and apply to the same person. Its also true that not everyone will agree with those terms applying to the same person.
Example: Renee Felice Smith (of NCIS: Los Angeles)
I'd label her as cute, sexy, and beautiful at the same time. She evokes a moe response (to me at least). OTOH, I do NOT find Megan Fox or Carmen Electra to be any of those things nor even very attractive to me -- though obviously a large crowd would disagree (there's an aura of insincerity that just turns me off) .

[Jan-Poo]

I can argue that even "cute" and "sexy" are strongly dependent on the feeling of the viewer and

"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder"


The first three can overlap but so does moe, the important thing is that they do not "coincide" else there wouldn't be any need for the new term "moe".

My opinion is that "moe" was created with a precise meaning in mind but that it is slowly being bastardized and dragged into a general acception that gets closer and closer to either "beautiful" or "cute" or "attractive". And that's because "moe" became popular and saying "saimoe league" sounds more interesting and fresher than "beauty contest".


At any rate saying "it depends on your feeling" does not explain what "moe" is. Imagine you need to explain it to a blind person (and therefore pointing at examples wouldn't work). I can do that with "sexy" "beautiful" and "cute" can you do that with "moe"?

[Flower]

Well ... again for me there are a few defining characteristics that help categorize moe - both when I have a reaction towards something and try and identify what it is and when I see others have such a reaction.

1. It is always bound up towards other people. (Dolphins, trees and rocks are not "moe", although sometimes an animal could be "kawaii", i.e. cute or adorable.)

2. It is usually a male reaction/evaluation to a female. Even when it is a female you see them using the word "moe" to describe another female - like when Konata Izumi is talking about Miyuki Takara in Lucky Star, for example.

3. The qualities most often associated with "moe" involve innocence, purity and vulnerability, etc. intertwined (sometimes subtly sometimes blatantly) with sexual attraction towards the person. Children are almost never "moe", but rather "kawaii". However, when puberty begins to affect them and they become aware of their bodily and emotional growth they begin to behave in such ways as could be qualified as "moe".

****

That being said, even though it is a reaction in people towards other people it is not an absolute quality present: i.e. different people will find different things to be "moe", but the qualities that evoke such a reaction across a large number of people can often be lumped together into general categories, like those I described above.

I think that reaction is what Vexx is trying to constantly re-emphasize.

[Jan-Poo]

That's a good way to describe what "moe" is but I repeat

One thing is having different opinions of what can be ascribed to a specific definition
One thing is having different opinions of what's the definition of a specific word


It is a given that "moe" (like almost every adjective) is subjected to the inevitable former case.

The latter is however nonsense and would undermine the utility of the word if the issue isn't resolved.


As for the "inherently" issue, I can argue that "sexy" is even less an inherent property of the person that "moe" is. A woman can become or stop being sexy simply by changing clothes and make up. In a sense "sexy" is more akin to "elegant" than to "beautiful".
"Moe" however to my understandment is more radically attached to the person. While it's not just something related to appearance and personality plays a huge part in it, I don't think a "moe girl" can stop being "moe" at will unless she totally changes her personality.

[Flower]

That different people should think different things are "moe" is, to me, in no way disproves the general definition.

I am not speaking of an all-encompassing, lock-stock-and-barrel, over-arching objective truth. I am speaking of personal preferences and reactions of a specific type with common characteristics.

Of course there will be variation. Of course there will be exceptions. But exceptions do not disprove or even discredit a general rule.

****

To be honest I am not exactly sure what you are trying to emphasize, and gave my response above based on what I thought you were saying. Apologies if I misinterpreted your words!

[0utf0xZer0]

I think that some discussion of definitions is inevitable in a thread like this, but I had kind of hoped this thread would focus on examples of what people find moe rather than their opinions of the concept itself.

On the issue of whether moe characters have to be female, I've heard a few females describe Renji (the shouta-ish boy Chihiro dates in EF) as moe, and I'm kind of inclined to agree (being straight AFAIK, I think you can guess that sexual attraction is not an important factor in moe for me). May weigh in on other issues later, but I'm quite busy today.

[Archon_Wing]

Recent moe, huh?

But before we start, I forgot someone from a bit before
Touko! Touko! Touko!
(from Book Girl)

I lol'd when she had that Haruhi-like smile when she got an idea. Plus eating paper is just ridiculous. It's just ridiculous how Kana Hanazawa just seems to rule over moe as of late.

Akira from YnS was a pretty good pick. She's just a pretty straightforward, honest character that really lives life and has fun. (err, lots of fun) She probably has the best story out of all of them when combined with her sister and falls under the "I want to give them a hug" category.

Sora also definitely as a moe look if going straight for aesthetics; there's something about her long hair and calm looks that encouraged me to check out the series. But her personality is another issue which turns me off so she doesn't really make the list. She really needs to get laid and...

Spoiler:

by someone not in the family too!

Kuroneko from Ore no Imouto is definitely a shooin for me. She oozes with cuteness just by her outrageous behavior, tendency to cosplay, incredible wit, and kindness as a bigger sister. The best part about this is that you really can't tell this at the start; you have to get to know her to realize she's actually a lot of fun instead of some bitter, sarcastic bitch.

In any case, she's one hell of a show stealer, even grabbing most of the OVAs to herself, where she manages to show more of her caring side and overcome her own shyness in more ordinary surrounding. Dropping the superiority complex sure helps.

Homura from Madoka Magica is another easy choice, since she just falls under characters I usually like. Flawed characters with a strong sense of loyalty with huge arsenals of weapons, and with the attitude to go with it works perfectly for me. It's also kinda funny how dorky she is when she tries to be cool at times (Really, is that how you wear a head ribbon?) but it actually makes sense given the origin of her character.

Style and a great internal/external conflict make the character for me. Though my obsession with self-destructive characters can't be healthy, can it?

Kurisu from Steins;Gate is easily rising in the rank. She's witty, but also has faults and tends to sometimes lose her cool when teased. But she also has her way of getting back at Okabe, leading to no end of cute and funny moments, at the expense of either side.

From the series, Mayuri is another easy pick. Steins;Gate just really knows how to do moe, given that it never feels that excessive. Mayuri seems to be perputually on laughing gas, and god knows the show needs her.

I would add the entire cast of Ano Hana to the list to share this distinction, since they are a kind and screwed up bunch that you'd really want to give a hug to. Well, except Yukiatsu... jackass. Though if I had to nominate one from their crew, it'd actually be Anaru. Oh you and your silly nickname, and lover of video games.

And a final shout out to Ohana from Hana Saku Iroha. She's clearly MVP of the year, and to say Hana Iro is Ohana is no understatement. She's kinda silly in her ridiculous and rash escapades, but there's just this unwavering feeling of sincerity that one can never shake. She's Nanoha in a SoL, basically.

[Flower]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

I think that some discussion of definitions is inevitable in a thread like this, but I had kind of hoped this thread would focus on examples of what people find moe rather than their opinions of the concept itself.

Yeah - apologies for making the conversation veer off like that.

I guess I was trying to articulate a standard and then show examples of things I consider moe based on that standard in my original post.

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

On the issue of whether moe characters have to be female, I've heard a few females describe Renji (the shouta-ish boy Chihiro dates in EF) as moe, and I'm kind of inclined to agree (being straight AFAIK, I think you can guess that sexual attraction is not an important factor in moe for me). May weigh in on other issues later, but I'm quite busy today.

Yeah ... again, I am going with common, general definitions and contexts. Of course there will be exceptions to the "rule".

[Vexx]

Recent examples that evoke "moe" from me:

Kuroneko in Ore Imouto. The package of petite, playful seriousness, really a very "good girl" in terms of her loyalty, and laser beam ferocity in pursuing a goal.

Ritsu of K-On! A non-standard answer... but she's spunky (whatever THAT means).

Can't think of too many other recent candidates that stand out without making a long list of everyone who fired off a "moe" moment.

[Triple_R]

Hmmm...

There's an old saying about how people are able to tell pornographic material from non-pornographic material.

The saying is "I know it when I see it".

It's hard to draw a precise line when material goes from non-pornographic (i.e. just sexually suggestive) to pornographic, but most people have a pretty good sense of what a pornographic image is when they see it.


I think that much the same is true of moe. You know it when you see it. I think that most anime fans (at least most anime fans who watch more than just the big shounen titles) have a pretty good sense of what a moe character is when they see her (or him, in some cases perhaps). But it can be difficult to draw precise lines between characters that aren't truly moe and characters that are.


To arrive at something more concrete, though, I suggest two thought experiments (one for moe fans, and one for moe critics):

1. For moe fans, think of a female character you like, but you would not consider moe. Describe the traits she has that prevents her from being moe, in your opinion.

2. For moe critics, think of a female character you like, in spite of her being moe. Describe the traits she has that makes her moe, in your opinion.


If enough people try out these thought experiments, maybe that'll help us arrive at a more precise understanding of what moe is (and is not).

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Flower

To be honest I am not exactly sure what you are trying to emphasize, and gave my response above based on what I thought you were saying. Apologies if I misinterpreted your words!

I guess that mine was an implicit challenge to the claims that the moeblob stereotype such as Mikuru or the characters from K-on are "harmful" for the purpose of understand what "truly" moe means.

But what if "moe" is exactly that? Who is to say that it's not? From what can you even find the confidence that the way you intend "moe" is the right one?


I honestly don't have a 100% confidence that "moe" is what I think "moe" is but there's one thing I know for sure: if you extend the meaning of "moe" to a broad area you risk to be unable to tell the difference between other concepts such as "beautiful" "cute" and so on, and therefore the new word would lose its reason to exist. I think that the meaning of "moe", whatever it is, should better remain restricted to a certain field.


As for my opinion showing characters like

Mikuru (Haruhi Suzumiya) and Mio (K-on)

Is probably the best way to make somenone who is totally ignorant about the otaku culture understand what "moe" is.

Showing kuroneko (oreimo) could get them confused because while kuroneko is certainly moe she possesses other relevant distinctive qualities.

[Flower]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I guess that mine was an implicit challenge to the claims that the moeblob stereotype such as Mikuru or the characters from K-on are "harmful" for the purpose of understand what "truly" moe means.

But what if "moe" is exactly that? Who is to say that it's not? From what can you even find the confidence that the way you intend "moe" is the right one?

You seem to be going from the premise that there is a definition of what "moe" as if it is an objective, mathematical equation or a "scientific law". I don't think the main point of the thread is to try and articulate such a thing, nor do I believe it is right to do so.

I believe that even if one can articulate common general qualities of what makes "moe" to be "moe", ultimately since it is a matter of emotional reactions there will be differences of opinion in what each considers to be "moe". That's why I qualified it in the same general category as what foods one regards as "tasty".

If we don't take this stance conversations will come down to: "I like strawberries more than cherries, but anyone who likes pineapple is an idiot!" The issue is not that we are talking about the supremacy of strawberries or plums or apples, but rather we are talking about what kinds of fruit we like, and fruit can be objectively described in a few commonly agreed upon ways. I think the purpose of the thread is to describe what kinds of fruit we like (i.e. what we think good examples of "moe" are) and why we like them.

I gave a definition of what I regarded as "moe" and then gave examples of some I thought were so and some I thought were not in relation to the standards I tried to articulate. In doing so I may have set a bad precedent in the thread and de-railed it from the OP purpose, for which I apologize if I did.

[Jan-Poo]

You seem to be going from the premise that there is a definition of what "moe" as if it is an objective, mathematical equation or a "scientific law".

Actually I was stating that there is a complete lack of such a certain definition.

[Flower]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Actually I was stating that there is a complete lack of such a certain definition.

*sigh*

I think we are spinning our wheels here - you are emphasizing one aspect of the equation and I another.

Maybe we should just agree to disagree on which aspect of the equation we emphasize and get on with the thread, eh?

[Jan-Poo]

I thought the problem was that you didn't understand what I meant. You can't really say that you disagree with me in that case.

If you think that I think that there is a definition of what "moe" is as if it is an objective, mathematical equation or a "scientific law", I don't think you understood my point...

[Flower]

Okay - "resolved" via PM. (Thanks Jan Poo!)

Let the thread continue!

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

As for my opinion showing characters like

Mikuru (Haruhi Suzumiya) and Mio (K-on)

Is probably the best way to make somenone who is totally ignorant about the otaku culture understand what "moe" is.

The reason I don’t like using Mikuru and Mio to explain to moe to newbies is that they’re gag characters. Mio somewhat less so than Mikuru, but Mikuru is an outright satire of stereotypical moe characters. It’s too easy to confuse the gag traits of these characters with “moe”.

I wouldn’t use Kuroneko to explain moe to newbies because she’s not a “conventional” moe character. I’d use examples like Ohana (Hana-Saku Iroha), Noe (True Tears), Akira (Yosuga no Sora), and Yuno (Hidamari Sketch). To me those girls represent the “quintessential” moe character. I feel Mikuru is only a poster child for moe in the west because she was described as moe by Haruhi.

I would be very interested in what words people would use to describe Ohana/Noe/Akira/Yuno/etc… there’s a ton of such characters out there.

Originally Posted by Flower

3. The qualities most often associated with "moe" involve innocence, purity and vulnerability, etc. intertwined (sometimes subtly sometimes blatantly) with sexual attraction towards the person. Children are almost never "moe", but rather "kawaii". However, when puberty begins to affect them and they become aware of their bodily and emotional growth they begin to behave in such ways as could be qualified as "moe".

While I can certain find all these qualities in various moe characters, I wouldn’t say I strongly associate those traits with moe.

However, I would say that all moe characters share one thing in common: moe girls bloom. Heck, can’t the word moe itself be read as budding?

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Plus eating paper is just ridiculous.

Normally I hate “quirk” moe, but yes, Touko’s ability to “taste” stories written on paper was awesome.

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

The best part about this is that you really can't tell this at the start; you have to get to know her to realize she's actually a lot of fun instead of some bitter, sarcastic bitch.

Yeah, I thought Kuroneko was a “love to hate her” type character at first. Seeing her play the “kind big sis” role in episode nine was the watershed moment, but to tell the truth I had been softening even before then (ie. when she describes Kirino’s story to Kyousuke).

In this respect, she’s kind of a like a goth-loli version of an old favourite of mine, Tsugumi Komachi from the visual novel Ever 17: The Out of Infinity. Tsugumi had the same sort of dismissive attitude and was absolutely infuriating early in the game, I think there was one part of the game where I thought “I wish this was the kind of VN that gave me the option to spank her” (I had just seen Kanokon at the time). But by the end of the game, I loved Tsugumi, even more so that characters I liked a lot at the beginning. Although Kuroneko isn’t quite as batshit insane as Tsugumi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgz6PnX8Li0

[Ichuki]

For moe I dislike tsundere characters minus Kagami Hiiragi, Kanade Minamino, and Kyou Fujibayashi 99% of the time the tsundere characters looks like they'll beat you up if you try to protect them due to unfortunatly the tsunderes minus the 3 I mentioned is poorly executed most of the time. I concider characters moe if they are cute and if they are characterization is executed very well. I don't think K-On is a good example of moe their moe moments may be cute but the character's personality is not so good

[synaesthetic]

I'm probably well-known around here as a basher of moeblob stuffs, but I don't actually hate the moe character style.

I like what I call functional moe. I prefer my adorable little moeblobs to be badass (i.e. Touhou, Strike Witches, Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha, Merrill of Dragon Age II, Homura Akemi of Puella Magi Madoka Magica, Tali of Mass Effect, etc).

See the tropes Badass Adorable and Little Miss Badass.

[Archon_Wing]

I prefer the more competent ones too, it's quite umm... attractive.