Psycho-Pass - Episode 14 Discussion / Poll

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by Ultramarinus

Sybil is merely a measuring tool.

While that is true on the surface the more I think about it the more the Sybil System and why it's treated almost seems like the head of a religious cult. For example.

Up until now, Ginoza has always been portrayed as having an unwavering faith in morality of the Sibyl System, similar to that of a religious devotee. This analogy becomes even more apparent with the Bureau Chief’s zealous proselytizing about Sibyl’s role in their society and presumably civilization. The tone with which she describes its role in people’s lives along with the lexicon she uses, words like judgment and blessings, strongly suggests that she, and likely many others, view the Sibyl System as something akin to a religion or deity of some sort. They have simply traded one religion for another, one god for another.

[Ultramarinus]

I'm aware of its importance. Being a tool of measuring, what it measures is of immense value, pretty much the worth of humans. It'd indeed be indispensable right away if it were to arrive tomorrow. And building a society based on an objective assessment of the mind is rather plausible.

However, the director herself says that it's not as easy as letting drones roam the streets with dominators. It's not as simple as that. This is where our guys come in. And that is also why an inspector on her first day can oppose the practiced norm and can still get away with it. Maybe some individuals treat it as a religion but not the ministry if we're to believe what they said and did.

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by Ultramarinus

They are warned, they not just only have the report of Akane but also the director's confirmation that it's not a bogey. It's like how Agent Scully tries to stubbornly refuse the obvious until an UFO hits her in the face. Heck, in this case there's no room for doubt left. Dominators don't work, time to resort to alternate methods.

Heck, at this point, I'm just gonna say that let's all just wait and see before making any hasty judgments. Yes, that would be the pragmatic thing to do, but there are a lot of interests on the line. There's a lot of bureaucracy involved as well. Well, I'm willing to let this situation simmer for a bit.

Originally Posted by Ultramarinus

If they really want to keep on with the dominators, they could ask for bypassing the minimum threshold to use stun gun mode. See masked guys or Makishima? Just stun them. Nobody sees them using firearms, everyone's cool.

They could do that of course, but like I said, the Dominator is weighed down by bureaucracy. It's no simple matter of just shooting someone. Arguably, it's even more important that they don't shoot anyone that shouldn't be shot that if they get their target to begin with.

Originally Posted by Ultramarinus

Sybil is merely a measuring tool.

Hm. I think this is where the heart of our disagreement lies. For me, Sybil is much more than a measuring tool in this society. While we can agree that there is room for doubt in the system (from the higher-ups' point of view) in the form of using human Enforcers, that is a minority view in the eyes of the public if it even has significance at all. Before Akane came it along, it was unheard of to hold back on shooting someone with an extremely high Psycho-Pass level.

Sybil is one that judges and the Enforcers are the ones that execute its judgment. That is the order of things in this society. Makishima is, of course, an exception since the director pretty much authorized his capture. The thing about the helmets is that they're too recent a discovery to expect any meaningful change. Let's see how things turn out in the next episode, shall we?

[Battler-kun]

Heh, that's a nice Utopia of what the Sybil-system has created or more like the creator of that system.
It turns out to be a Dystopia at some point like all systems humans have went through.

The problem is not the system, but the human itself. With the Sybil-system humans tried to throw away their responsibilities of judging one's action.
Too bad the system was created by human and thus cannot be perfect to begin with.
The Old Lady Boss knows its flaws very well, but to protect the order, and the faith in the system, the flaws shall not be revealed to the outside world.
But this is a game she can't play forever.

And we are here to witness the downfall of the system.

The only perfect solution to all this similar problems are not some changes in the form of how society looks like.
It must be a change within each individual, or should i say one must give it up for the system to become perfect.
The only solution is to transcend of what is known as a human by genetical engineering.
Otherwise the problems will reoccur again and again with different settings but it can be all broken down to same basis.


Reflecting on the real world and the situation right now, i think i would rather live under the Sybil-System.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Ultramarinus

I'm aware of its importance. Being a tool of measuring, what it measures is of immense value, pretty much the worth of humans.

And do you think it does that effectively? Do the Enforcers on the police force strike you as having "less worth" than other human beings? Heck, a case could be made that Kougami has proven himself invaluable to this world. His wits and keen mind have thus far kept bad situations from spiraling completely out of control.

It'd indeed be indispensable right away if it were to arrive tomorrow.

How can something be indispensable if it never existed before? Clearly it's not "indispensable" or society would not have functioned without it.

However, the director herself says that it's not as easy as letting drones roam the streets with dominators. It's not as simple as that. This is where our guys come in. And that is also why an inspector on her first day can oppose the practiced norm and can still get away with it. Maybe some individuals treat it as a religion but not the ministry if we're to believe what they said and did.

The ministry is absolutely treating it like a system that must appear perfect at all times. Otherwise, there would be more fail-safes in place (such as the Enforcers having old-fashioned hand guns at their disposal, which they clearly do not enjoy). The only logical reason for such fail-safes not being in place is that the ministry must be worried that Joe Average Citizen seeing a cop wielding an old-fashioned handgun could undermine his faith in the Sybil system.

'If Sybil is perfect, then the Dominators should be perfect, so why do we need these old anarchistic, obsolete guns?' - This is the thought the average citizen might have if they caught Akane or Kougami with an old-fashioned gun in their hands. At least, that's what I think the ministry is worried about.

So Sybil is being treated as a god of sorts. It's being treated as something the average citizen should have complete faith in. So the smallest inconsistency, the tiniest contradiction, can not be tolerated.

I suspect (though admittedly don't know) that Sybil was sold as this perfect system to the public. If I'm right, it was sold this way since it deals with life and death decisions on a regular basis, so people would naturally expect it to be infallible.

Originally Posted by Battler-kun

The problem is not the system, but the human itself. With the Sybil-system humans tried to throw away their responsibilities of judging one's action.

I find it odd how you, Dengar, and some others blame people for this, and absolve the system entirely of it, when the system itself implicitly (if not explicitly) encourages humans to "throw away their responsibilities of judging one's action".

That's the whole point of Psycho-Pass readings, isn't it? To know and feel that everybody around you is a good, law-abiding citizen without criminal potential whatsoever and so you don't have to bother with assessing them at all? I mean, isn't that basically what Gino himself said to Akane in this episode?

And the Dominator very clearly reinforces this by not allowing even professional law enforcement officers to shoot people unless Sibyl gives the go-ahead to do so (and even then, Sibyl determines if its a lethal shot or a paralyzing one).

Isn't it obvious that one of the main features of the system itself is people giving up the responsibility and need to assess other people; giving that up to Sibyl so that's one less thing they have to worry about in life?

And you know, now that I think about it, this is another reason why Sybil has to be seen as flawless. An implicit social contract has been made between humans and Sybil. That contract, from the human side, is "I'm not going to worry about strangers, because I can trust Sybil to take care of them. All I need to care about is myself, and those closest to me. That's it. I need never worry about crime, political corruption, poverty, disadvantaged minorities, or anybody I don't personally know - Because I can safely trust that Sybil will perfectly look after them."

And I'll even admit that I can see why some would find that appealing (although personally I don't). But it can only be appealing if the individual citizen can in fact trust Sybil completely. Once they can't, they need to start assessing other people again. Once the human judgement of law enforcement officers becomes a noticeable factor again, then that human judgement itself becomes open to necessary public scrutiny (not unlike, say, my fellow Canadians and I questioning a RCMP Officer that's a bit too trigger-happy with a taser).

The only perfect solution to all this similar problems are not some changes in the form of how society looks like.
It must be a change within each individual, or should i say one must give it up for the system to become perfect.
The only solution is to transcend of what is known as a human by genetical engineering.

The character in this anime that came the closest to transcending what is known as a human was the Cyborg Hunter. Given his overall characterization, and what happened to him, I doubt that the theme of this show is "Sybil is great. We must transcend what is known as a human in order to match Sybil!"

Reflecting on the real world and the situation right now, i think i would rather live under the Sybil-System.

I definitely would rather live in a world where me having one bad day isn't liable to get me ruled a latent criminal, and killed in the most gorey way possible by a law enforcement officer. I definitely would rather live in a world where I'm not implicitly encouraged to not care about anybody other than immediate family and close friends. I definitely would rather live in a world that respects human freedom and dignity, and hence doesn't judge people by some dubious mind scan readings.

Given the options, I'll stick with the real world, thank you.

[Ultramarinus]

Originally Posted by Qilin

Heck, at this point, I'm just gonna say that let's all just wait and see before making any hasty judgments. Yes, that would be the pragmatic thing to do, but there are a lot of interests on the line. There's a lot of bureaucracy involved as well. Well, I'm willing to let this situation simmer for a bit.

Yeah well, I'm worried that the author is going to sacrifice some of our guys since they'll be unarmed and then I'll rage hard and lose my respect for the show. When the tone, premise, setting and characters aren't serious, I'm willing stupid actions to slide because my expectation isn't much to start with. But when I'm watching a serious production, these types of things bother me a lot.

They could do that of course, but like I said, the Dominator is weighed down by bureaucracy. It's no simple matter of just shooting someone. Arguably, it's even more important that they don't shoot anyone that shouldn't be shot that if they get their target to begin with.

I think they would be able to identify Makishima and masked people easily enough, it's not like they'd mistake people. Desperate measures for desperate times. The director herself put them to the task, they have no red tape to worry about.

Hm. I think this is where the heart of our disagreement lies. For me, Sybil is much more than a measuring tool in this society. While we can agree that there is room for doubt in the system (from the higher-ups' point of view) in the form of using human Enforcers, that is a minority view in the eyes of the public if it even has significance at all. Before Akane came it along, it was unheard of to hold back on shooting someone with an extremely high Psycho-Pass level.

Sybil is one that judges and the Enforcers are the ones that execute its judgment. That is the order of things in this society. Makishima is, of course, an exception since the director pretty much authorized his capture. The thing about the helmets is that they're too recent a discovery to expect any meaningful change. Let's see how things turn out in the next episode, shall we?

And I said that she went against the norm but not written rules. She accomplished the task and she wasn't let go. That's hard proof that Sybil's measurement isn't equal to a court judge sentence. As number measured changes, so does Sybil's authorization. CC value is a license to kill. Not an order to kill.

Yeah of course, I hope that the story will get its act together. It was going great till 11 and in 12 & 13.

[Mandarake]

I held back on commenting for as long as I could because this episode was designed to, and did in fact elicit highly emotional reactions. This makes for great television, but doesn’t do as well for a reasoned discussion of deeper issues. Urobuchi & co. deliberately staged the public assault/homicide scene to maximize audience outrage, and very skillfully too, in my humble opinion. Those who would complain about the all-controlling nature of Sybil ought to be aware that they are themselves being manipulated emotionally as they view this program, even if it is being done for their entertainment, and perhaps, enlightenment(?).

Speaking of emotional reactions, back in my law school days we were introduced to the old adage that “hard cases make bad law.” Google it guys. I find it very relevant to this discussion. Makishima and his ilk are extreme outliers in a very steep bell curve. Would you overturn a functional system on account of vanishingly rare, albeit sensational exceptions to the general rule? What would you have in its stead? Would you tweak the system to allow a modicum of violent crime and aggression just to keep the general population on its toes? How much more morally acceptable would that be? In fact, if you had the technology that underpins the Sybil system at your disposal, what would you do with it? Would you be the Luddite and pretend that it had never been thought up? Or, if you decide not to apply the technology to the logical extreme that we see in Psychopass, how would you decide where to draw the line on what will likely be a slippery slippery slope?

I don’t pretend to know the answer to these questions. What makes this show more than just a potboiler to me is that it provides a good context to ponder the human condition anew. Any system we think up is bound to be weighted down by the same contradictions that are inherent in our nature as imperfect human beings. So those of you who still insist that simple answers exist to the moral issues implicated in this series ought to consider the possibility that you may not have thought about them deeply enough.

[Ultramarinus]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

And do you think it does that effectively? Do the Enforcers on the police force strike you as having "less worth" than other human beings? Heck, a case could be made that Kougami has proven himself invaluable to this world. His wits and keen mind have thus far kept bad situations from spiraling completely out of control.

It appears that you took what I said out of context. I was talking about the perception of how it's used by the government and how it's regarded by its advocates.

How can something be indispensable if it never existed before? Clearly it's not "indispensable" or society would not have functioned without it.

Not really. Societies existed for thousands of years without electricity. They would crumble overnight if it goes away now. Not the end of the world but still indispensable.

The ministry is absolutely treating it like a system that must appear perfect at all times. Otherwise, there would be more fail-safes in place (such as the Enforcers having old-fashioned hand guns at their disposal, which they clearly do not enjoy). The only logical reason for such fail-safes not being in place is that the ministry must be worried that Joe Average Citizen seeing a cop wielding an old-fashioned handgun could undermine his faith in the Sybil system.

'If Sybil is perfect, then the Dominators should be perfect, so why do we need these old anarchistic, obsolete guns?' - This is the thought the average citizen might have if they caught Akane or Kougami with an old-fashioned gun in their hands. At least, that's what I think the ministry is worried about.

So Sybil is being treated as a god of sorts. It's being treated as something the average citizen should have complete faith in. So the smallest inconsistency, the tiniest contradiction, can not be tolerated.

I suspect (though admittedly don't know) that Sybil was sold as this perfect system to the public. If I'm right, it was sold this way since it deals with life and death decisions on a regular basis, so people would naturally expect it to be infallible.

They don't need to carry them, firearms would remain in their arsenal. Grab them when an extraordinary case occurs. How are they protecting Japan in the first place? Will they shoot enemy aircraft and ships with dominators? Surely they must have access to some other kinds of weapons.

I believe you guys are blowing this "tiniest contradiction by the ministry" thing out of proportions. People die left and right who have families, friends. Because of the system's gaps. Those would be not only way more noticeable but also extremely more bothering. Average citizen doesn't even see a dominator through their whole life anyway. Heh, is there anyone here who saw a police use their pistol in their entire life? Now, what are the odds that a citizen would witness a dominator being used in a society that has a much less crime frequency than ours?

Let me tell what would completely demolish the system: If a masked gang went on a killing spree downtown and our guys can't do anything against them due to insisting on dominators. I suspect that might happen soon in fact and I'll facepalm.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Ultramarinus

It appears that you took what I said out of context. I was talking about the perception of how it's used by the government and how it's regarded by its advocates.

Ok, understood. Thanks for the correction.

Not really. Societies existed for thousands of years without electricity. They would crumble overnight if it goes away now. Not the end of the world but still indispensable.

Electricity became indispensable once people became used to it, and particularly after you had a large number of people who never lived in a world without electricity.

But electricity wasn't indispensable the day it arrived. Likewise, if something like Sybil was invented tomorrow, it wouldn't be indispensable "right away".


I think there's a misconception here that whenever something new is invented, human society has no choice but to adapt to it and accept it for all time. Given the impact that the internet, FaceBook, Twitter, and smart phones have had on humanity over the past 20 years, I can certainly understand and sympathize with many holding that misconception.

But the internet, Facebook, Twitter, and smart phones have all taken off because society in general sees considerable positives to these things, and no unacceptable downsides (many of us recognize the downsides, but we view them as tolerable).

But this isn't always the case with new technologies. How do I know this?

One word: Eugenics.

During the early decades of the 20th century, eugenics was very popular throughout much of the world, and was even promoted by many governments and countries.

Eugenics technology hasn't gone away. The US government could, in theory, start a widespread eugenics program in a short period of time if it wanted to. But it doesn't want to, because people ultimately rejected eugenics. This is because people saw unacceptable downsides to it (and yes, association with a very infamous national government during WWII certainly didn't help eugenics any ).

And you know, I see certain troubling similarities between the Sibyl system and eugenics. In both cases, much of the idea is to weed out undesirable people with undesirable characteristics/traits so you're left (in theory) with a perfect society.

When it came to eugenics, people decided that some things are best left to chance. People could conceivably make the same determination with something like the Sibyl system too.

They don't need to carry them, firearms would remain in their arsenal. Grab them when an extraordinary case occurs. How are they protecting Japan in the first place? Will they shoot enemy aircraft and ships with dominators? Surely they must have access to some other kinds of weapons.

I'm thinking one of three things has occurred here:

1. War, at least between nations, no longer exists as we know it.

2. Nation-states themselves no longer exist, as we know them. There's an one world government in the world of Psycho-Pass, and we just haven't seen that yet. Sybil is truly a global system. The Director is simply handling Japan's implementation of it.

3. Japan has a military, but there are clear divisions between it and the police. The military are strictly on bases, and are the only people who have access to old-fashioned guns. I would imagine that many of these soldiers are latent criminals due to things like PTSD, so keeping the military separate from the general population makes a lot of sense in the world of Psycho-Pass.

I believe you guys are blowing this "tiniest contradiction by the ministry" thing out of proportions. People die left and right who have families, friends. Because of the system's gaps. Those would be not only way more noticeable but also extremely more bothering. Average citizen doesn't even see a dominator through their whole life anyway. Heh, is there anyone here who saw a police use their pistol in their entire life? Now, what are the odds that a citizen would witness a dominator being used in a society that has a much less crime frequency than ours?

I get your point. Maybe the Director and her ministry have simply misjudged the public here. It does happen in real life sometimes that governing bodies misjudge how people will react to certain things.

Or maybe they're just afraid of letting Enforcers (who are latent criminals, after all) wield old-fashioned guns in a crowded city.

Let me tell what would completely demolish the system: If a masked gang went on a killing spree downtown and our guys can't do anything against them due to insisting on dominators. I suspect that might happen soon in fact and I'll facepalm.

That's a good point. I could see that happening too. It probably wouldn't bother me like it would you, though. Actually, I'd see some interesting irony in how a governing body who insists on being viewed as perfect becomes less efficient because of it. It would be a neat twist on the old saying of "The perfect being the enemy of the good."

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by Ultramarinus

CC value is a license to kill. Not an order to kill.

Yes, but on other side of the fence, it also means that they aren't allowed to apprehend anyone that Sybil does not deem to be dangerous, at least, not unless they're explicitly ordered to do so like in the case of Makishima. For that, Dominators are still necessary.

Of course, once the news of the helmets is reported to those on top, that might give room for a change in procedure. The important thing here is that clearance is still necessary before going against protocol.

[monir]

Originally Posted by Mandarake

Speaking of emotional reactions, back in my law school days we were introduced to the old adage that “hard cases make bad law.” Google it guys. I find it very relevant to this discussion. Makishima and his ilk are extreme outliers in a very steep bell curve. Would you overturn a functional system on account of vanishingly rare, albeit sensational exceptions to the general rule? What would you have in its stead? Would you tweak the system to allow a modicum of violent crime and aggression just to keep the general population on its toes? How much more morally acceptable would that be? In fact, if you had the technology that underpins the Sybil system at your disposal, what would you do with it? Would you be the Luddite and pretend that it had never been thought up? Or, if you decide not to apply the technology to the logical extreme that we see in Psychopass, how would you decide where to draw the line on what will likely be a slippery slippery slope?

I don’t pretend to know the answer to these questions. What makes this show more than just a potboiler to me is that it provides a good context to ponder the human condition anew. Any system we think up is bound to be weighted down by the same contradictions that are inherent in our nature as imperfect human beings. So those of you who still insist that simple answers exist to the moral issues implicated in this series ought to consider the possibility that you may not have thought about them deeply enough.

When I read this thread, all the possible thoughts, questions, and answers are already posted. So to answer one particular question in bold from above, I would just quote Qilin since I agree with it to the dot, and I think all of us know it intuitively by the virtue of being a human. The rest of your post still needed to be quoted for the sake context. Anyway here it is:

Originally Posted by Qilin

Going by a mechanistic interpretation of human nature, I'd say that it's not entirely their fault that they've been reduced to that point. Society is the very mechanism by which human acquire their values and preconceptions. Humans are susceptible to those socializing influences that come to make up their entire character. While it's easy to say that humans have the free will to allow themselves to not be subjected by the system, they are limited to whatever are choices offered by their own upbringing and values.

That said, on the entire whether Sybil is good or not argument, I'd say that it depends. If the priority is a stable society that promotes general happiness, then I think it's pretty good. But if the priority is something like individual freedom and self-actualization then of course it would seem abhorrent.

While it may not be a straight forward answer, it's still close enough!

[askara]

anyone think the Sybil system is power by the brains of those irregular individual? that will be interesting twist

[Dengar]

@Monir & Qilin's quote That is pretty much what it is. Those are valid points of either side of an argument.

Although I'm going to say that individual freedom isn't entirely impossible. In the end, people tend to have an aptitude for the the things they like doing anyways. Although I guess the artsy sector might be a bit of a problem. Even though it seems like "unauthorized" artists are still allowed to do their stuff.

[4Tran]

This was a pretty good episode. Unfortunately, it also highlights the structural weaknesses of the show itself. The primary one at play here is that to be truly effective, the viewer should feel something about the show's society being threatened. However, since we are all familiar with the gaping holes in the Sibyl System, the more natural reation is a big "meh".

It's quite amazing how close the themes of Psycho Pass come to the ones in Shinsekai Yori. It's too bad that the latter show has way more interesting things to say, and that it's way better at hitting its high notes.

[Archon_Wing]

So I'm trying to catch up here. My last thoughts about the show was that it gets good points, but you know, a lot of it can get not so subtle to hammer in points. It can cause a certain Darkness Induced Apathy And then I turn on this episode, and lol.

Perhaps it was a point about how people are unable to think for themselves and recognize dangerous situations. Perhaps it's a meta-point, how we, the audience, are so desensitized to gratuitous violence that "I've seen worse" also comes up. Perhaps it's some really dark form of humor. But in any case, I sorta just rolled my eyes. It brought points back, but I just sorta felt it was sorta smashed and how should I say it... pretty typical "This is a dystopia blah blah blah" despite the efforts to shove it on the screen. In any case, it almost feels like searching for psychological concepts on Wiki and then deciding "This will be the subject for today's episode!"

I understand the nature of the throwaway victims is supposed to create a cold. detached feeling towards this society to provide various commentary about how alienated individuals and morality have become. But it's definitely created a sense of detachment that is not good for really trying to get in this show. And really, we have tons of throwaway victims already.

Still, Makishima might have a point that people's minds really need to be freed, lest they not recognize the evil that is before their own eyes.

I will give the episode props for that useless helpbot. Glad to know that automated help is just as useless in the future.