2009-08-11, 01:47 | Link #4842 |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Well, the thing about Lelouch is that we know he loves people and cares about people and I think we can safely say that he knows that a lot of what he does is wrong, but he's a very Machiovellian kind of guy (the ends justify the means). He knows what he's doing is bad, but as long as he gets results that's all that matters (which I really don't agree with at all).
Then again, there are times where I think he enjoys himself a little too much while doing said evil things. |
2009-08-11, 03:33 | Link #4843 |
Um-Shmum
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for a character who is suppose to be a "good" guy he sure does laugh evilly a lot
but then again, lelouch being a "good" guy is a questionable proposition in the first place once you remember that everything he does he achieves by manipulation and deceit. well intentioned extremist is probably a better discription, but that only kicks in season 2 after he realizes that its not only about nunnaly until then he is just a manipulative bastard villain protagonist with a morality pet and a Freudian Excuse (albiet, a good one)
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2009-08-11, 03:57 | Link #4845 |
Um-Shmum
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more like
lelouch becomes a less selfish villain when he starts working for the sake of the world rather then just himself (ep 7 of season 2) he's practiclly an anti-hero at that stage his death and final plan blurs the line about what he is, but he's still technically a villain (only villains make master plans like Z-R) albeit a well intentioned extremist type, which is a vast improvement.
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2009-08-11, 06:42 | Link #4846 | |
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
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And I also agree that Lelouch was never supposed to be a "good guy". He's neither a villain nor a hero to me, just seriously messed up in a way that makes me want to hug him. That's how it was during the first episodes, and it didn't change, even though Lelouch himself certainly did.
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2009-08-11, 06:48 | Link #4847 |
Um-Shmum
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he starts out as a villain
he only cares about his own goal (revenge, and nunnaly) and manipulates everyone around him for that purpose. he only joins forces with ougi's group after it becomes evident that he cant do it alone he openly mocks the "knights of justice" trademark as hogwash, and mocks the Japanese people for being so susceptible to it. he claims that he doesnt want to use geass on his best friend, so he instead emotionally blackmails him with info he got from mao. he kills anyone who he deems fit to so long as it promotes his goals, even if they are on his side. and he goes into a complete heroic BSOD the moment it becomes obvious that nunnaly doesnt "need" him anymore (showing that it was his only real motivation) he only becomes questionable as a villain after ep 7 when he gets it into his head that its not ALL about him. season 1 lelouch is a villain protagonist with a morality pet.
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2009-08-11, 07:12 | Link #4848 | |
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
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Again, a definition thingy. A villain: - "a deliberate scoundrel or criminal" -> well, yes, if you define "deliberate criminal" as "deliberately going against a corrupt government". - "a character in a story or play who opposes the hero" -> Well, obviously, Lelouch couldn't be any further from that. - "a vile, wicked person; An extremely depraved person, or one capable or guilty of great crimes" -> the latter part of that would probably work well, the "evil" thingy, on the other hand, is subjective and would land us in a philosophical discussion So... if we go with the "great crimes" definition, it works. Otherwise, we obviously come to very different conclusions, because to me, a selfish person who commits some terrible acts is not automatically a villain if they are also portrayed as sympathetic, likeable and the main character of a story.
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2009-08-11, 07:16 | Link #4849 |
Um-Shmum
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your dictionary definition is too old and out dated
words change used to be a time when gay simply ment cheerful the definition of villain has come VERY far from the old days and can now cover a very wide range of characters i suggest you start reading the villain definitions on TV tropes.com lelouch would fall under well intentioned extremist which is a villain with good intentions
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2009-08-11, 07:19 | Link #4850 | |
Shameless Fangirl
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"Villain" is a word open to interpretation, and our definitions simply don't match. Edit: ...And this is purely semantics. Let's just agree that Lelouch isn't Euphie. xD
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2009-08-11, 07:26 | Link #4852 |
~Hi -mi- tsu des~
Join Date: Dec 2005
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The problem is that just because someone is shown to be likable and sympathetic, it does not excuse their actions, as so many others have pointed out in this thread and others when the show was airing. Villain is a word that has become very open to interpretation, no question about it there, but even in the definition you gave, as you yourself has admitted, Lelouch does fall under that definition. He could have the best of intentions, although at first he did not remember, but the fact is that Lelouch has acted like a villain.
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2009-08-11, 07:27 | Link #4853 | |
Shameless Fangirl
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(Hum, TV tropes talks about "despite how one is supposed to cheer for the hero to succeed, there has always been a long standing interest in the villains" and things like that, and seems to be implying that the villain is always the main character's enemy. So Lelouch would only be a villain according to the well-intentioned-extremist definition if Suzaku was the protagonist, and is just a well intentioned extremist as it is... or am I missing something? It's really just semantics, but I'm curious now. xD) Edit: @demon_god: Yes, Lelouch falls under one of the definitions that I found, and it's the one that only appeared on one single site. He's far from being a saint, but at least in by book, that doesn't automatically make him a villain.
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2009-08-11, 07:35 | Link #4854 |
Um-Shmum
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thats ANTAGONIST
its possible to be a hero antagonist just as it is to be a villain protagonist (light yagami is a good example of a villain protagonist) a villain is someone who actively and systematiclly does bad things for his OWN goals whether these goals are noble or not is what makes the difference if what kind of villain you are lelouch is what you call a well intentioned extremist so is suzaku and ironiclly so is charels marianne and shnizel draw your own conclusion
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2009-08-11, 07:42 | Link #4855 | |||
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
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Actually, I think I indeed read and quoted the villain (and well intentioned extremist) thingy, not the antagonist one.
So... tell that to TV tropes, or tell me what I missed. I also saw the villain protagonist, but it's not mentioned in those two articles, or at least, I didn't see it. Quote:
It just doesn't work with Lelouch. Or at least, not for me. Quote:
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At least to me, there's a difference, and if the main character isn't very obviously supposed to be a villain, then he isn't.
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2009-08-11, 07:48 | Link #4856 | ||||
Um-Shmum
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all it takes is for the antagonist to be a heroic character who fights for the right cause if you want a good example, the cop guy in the fugitive is a hero antagonist, despite the hero actually being a HERO. Quote:
the key being selfishness a villain does things for his OWN goals, not for the general good, and lelouch starts out that way Quote:
Spoiler for what did you expect him to look like:
light yagami looks like a very nice guy he also has a very noble goals in concept doesnt make him less of a villain though
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2009-08-11, 07:57 | Link #4857 | ||||
Shameless Fangirl
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And I just don't agree with your definition and that selfishness thingy. Humans are selfish. Lelouch has his own goals, but there's still a world of a difference between him and Yagami Light. Quote:
And Light does not have all that noble goals... seeing how he wants to be a God and all. I don't see your point. It's obvious that Light was intended as a villain. Even most of his devoted fans would agree with that - hell, I rather like the guy myself, even though he's not in the "wanna hug" category. Lelouch, on the other hand, was clearly intended as neither good nor bad, and that's the way he came across to me ("good" and "bad" probably being another very subjective thing, but let's not get into that). So... a matter of definition.
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2009-08-11, 08:04 | Link #4858 | |||
Um-Shmum
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kallen and nunnaly in the final arc. all its takes is to be a hero, and still oppose the protagonist for perfectly good reasons. Quote:
japan, zero, the OOBK, all that is just a means to an end the only thing he cares about is nunnaly and his revenge he lampshades this in ep 6 of season 2 when he outright states that zero and the OOBK exist solely for nunnaly's sake Quote:
followed by s psychotic smirk. he doesnt so much gets a call to adventure as he gets a means to speed it up he planned to take over the world even BEFORE getting the geass there is a name for people who make "plans to take over the world"
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2009-08-11, 08:17 | Link #4859 | |||
Shameless Fangirl
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Suzaku?
I disagree. Suzaku wasn't much better himself. Quote:
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This has stopped being about the word villain and is now about "was Lelouch a despisable human being?" I say no, because people are selfish by nature, and because Lelouch tried to achieve something more with that selfishness. He was a bastard more than once, but I don't see how Suzaku is a better person than him. ...And we have been over this so many times already that maybe we should just stop here and agree to disagree. Quote:
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2009-08-11, 08:26 | Link #4860 | |||
Um-Shmum
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in season 1 ?
his goal is noble (albiet misguided) and he acts more heroic then any other character Quote:
they try to stop him BECAUSE he is an evil overlord both do it despite the fact that they love him but they do it because they cant allow an evil overlord to take over the world no matter what their personal feelings for him may be. thats hero antagonist. and i'm not talking before ep 7, i'm talking about the final arc, when lelouch is trying to conquer the world and enslave humanity (and he is, its just that its step one) and lelouch at that point of the story IS a villain, no matter how you look at it just one with good intentions Quote:
villains can (and often ARE) messed up lelouch acts solely for his own goals and manipulates everyone around him for that purpose (and at times, disposes of them when they have outlived their usefulness) thats a villain Quote:
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