[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 3 Banquet of the golden witch

[crazysjd89]

Originally Posted by Chadauw

Spoiler for Episode 2:

Maybe I'm a bit naive here but... I doubt Rosa did the murder of the Chapel in Episode 2. I remember that, when she discovered the corpse, she was very shocked because it made her remember an old trauma. How could she kill somebody this way? Unless she wasn't really herself...

Maybe she made a deal with the murderers or with the 19th person?

Spoiler for response:

I find Rosa the most suspicious, because she is shown in the chapel with the 6 others and Beatrice, yet never mentions this. In fact, she tries to stop Jessica from going after Beatrice.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Marion

Spoiler for Kinzo/Episode 1 spoilers:

My guess is that every time we see Kinzo in each game it's an imposter. Kinzo never leaves his study and the only people ever in it are Genji, Nanjo, Kanon and Shannon. Unless Kinzo dies before the First Twilight murders occur we can say that the servants become possible accomplices.

As far as his body in episode 1 I remember he went missing. Then later they found his body burned up. Possible theory: There is a Kinzo impersonator and the real Kinzo has been dead for some time. Going back to episode 1 we can say that the Kinzo impersonator was putting the body into the burner when Kanon ran down. By the time he was finished putting in the body Kanon got to the boiler room and was stabbed. This could explain why Kinzo's body was badly burned by the time they took it out but his toes were still intact enough for them to tell it was him.

I wonder about that corpse.

Spoiler for Burned corpse theory:

In Episode 1 it was said that the corpse was charred so badly that the face, age, and gender couldn't be determined. The only identifying features whatsoever are the extra toes. We've never had it in red that this corpse really is Kinzo's; the red text in Episode 3 stated that he was dead, but not that he was one of the First Twilight victims. Nanjo got a look at the corpse in Episode 3 as well, but even if he isn't an accomplice, he isn't qualified to perform autopsies, so it's reasonable to assume he wouldn't be able to identify the age or gender of the corpse either.

I think that the indeterminate gender is the critical point. If the corpse isn't Kinzo's, then it must be one of his relatives who inherited his polydactyly, and the only loose relative we have at this point is Beatrice herself (assuming that she really is his daughter or granddaughter like we've been led to believe). It's also interesting that the only episode so far in which the corpse hasn't turned up, Episode 2, is also the only one where we've had any evidence of human Beatrice walking around the island.

Originally Posted by crazysjd89

Spoiler for response:

I find Rosa the most suspicious, because she is shown in the chapel with the 6 others and Beatrice, yet never mentions this. In fact, she tries to stop Jessica from going after Beatrice.

Spoiler for Beatrice's whereabouts:

Something that was odd about the chapel scene was that at midnight, when everyone's locations were shown, the relatives were all in the chapel, but Beatrice's location is given as the honored guest room. That seems like it's implying that she wasn't present when the murders occurred, unless for some reason she left and then came back. Or, going even further out on a limb, maybe she wasn't even in the chapel to begin with?

[Matrim]

Spoiler for replies:

With the inclusion of red text. I'm interested if we are ever going to get fake deaths. Cause ever since episode 2 we have not been able to get any. Actually only episode 1 has any implication of fake deaths with the "unrecognizable faces"

Not exactly. There is Kinzo's burned body in ep.3, plus we usually learn little to nothing useful info about the final few deaths. In episode 2 apparently Rosa, Kinzo, and Genji were "eaten by demons" which if we go for the anti-fantasy approach means basically nothing. And even though they were "eaten" they are listed as missing in the tips, along with Battler and Maria. And we know nothing about what happened after the end of the episode apart from the ending credits saying no one has survived. Which is probably the truth but it might not be. For all we know Rosa could have survived and inherited all the money. Or left a fake body and disappeared somewhere with the gold. This vagueness about the fate of the last survivors reminds me somewhat of the vagueness about who was ritually murdering Rika in Higurashi. I think it's very likely that the real entity behind it all, a person or a witch, is to blame for the final deaths, which is why we are shown so little of them - even in ep.3 where Eva survives. Maybe she defeated the real arch-villain in the end?

My guess is that every time we see Kinzo in each game it's an imposter. Kinzo never leaves his study and the only people ever in it are Genji, Nanjo, Kanon and Shannon.

But the real Kinzo behaved in the same way, didn't he? Unless this imposter replaced him years ago which would be silly.

Also, you'd think Beato would mind if some imposter has taken over the identity of the man she had a contract with. I just don't see what anyone has to gain from this switch. Furthermore, Krauss must be really dumb if he can't recognize the voice of his own father, even through the heavy door of the study.

[Klashikari]

I'm sorry, but I'm forced to close the thread for a little while, for some clean up.

Please, again, do NOT post any episode 4 spoilers!

There is no point for a episode 4 thread if people starts resolving previous episodes in their respective thread, spoiling the rest carelessly. If you want to comment on episode 3 with episode 4 knowledge, please do so with the episode 4 thread!

[Jan-Poo]

I know i might come a little late, but i 've only recently finished the translated third episode of Umineko and there's something that really bother me.

It's about the "perfect Web" of Beatrice. I hope it hasn't be discussed already, however it didn't show up in a search and i couldn't read all of the 53 pages (i apologize, i've only read some of them).

Anyway here is my question:

Spoiler for Umineko Episode 3:

Eva Beatrice actually created a perfect web of red truths. At that point Battler was already crushed by it and everyone including Virgilia and Ronove were complimenting it.

However Eva Beatrice didn't stop there and continued by saying something that totally baffled me:


Absolutely no factors other than humans participate in this game board!

The one who killed Nanjo was definitely a human!

Now what i'd like to know if she actually used the word "human" here even in the japanese text.

I dunno if you see what i'm seeing here, however it would be pointless to explain my opinion if this was a mistranslation.

Note that i haven't played the 4th Episode yet. If you think this could be explained by what it is unveiled there, then i'll just wait untill i've played it.

[theacefrehley]

The original text says:

＊人間以外の一切の要素は、このゲーム盤に関与しない＊！
ゆえにこうも言えるわね。
＊南條を殺したのは、確かに人間である＊！
＊地に足の付いた人間が、凶器をかざし、それにて殺した！＊　
＊眼前にて＊！　


人間 means human being, person.

I think her intention here was to make a contrast with 動物 (animal) (1).

However, to me, with all the red text mentioned in this episode, 'Witches' are not counted as human beings, they'd be more like ghosts, monsters or something like that. (meaning that when beatrice says there are no more than 18 people, there could be 18 people there plus whatever number of witches there).

Unless she meant that the Witch was posessing a human being, but that's another talk...

In the end, with all that, she'd be denying the Witch herself, saying in red the criminal(s) is(are) humans, isn't it what you are thinking?

I also thought that, but I think the original intention was (1) and Ryuukishi just let it slip... (maybe on purpose... hehe, thinking nobody would notice...)


Well
anyway... I already forgot most stuff of this episode... I might be letting stuff slip here...

[ClockWorkAngel]

Spoiler for Important:

The most important thing to notice is that she never confirmed the deaths of Hideyoshi, Kyrie and Rudolf, so the possibility of one of those 3 is very possible if not the only option.

[Jan-Poo]

Ah thanx Ace! So the kanji used definitely refers to "ningen", there's no mistake about that.

Spoiler for Episode 3:

You pretty much understand the contradiction.

If only Battler noticed that, he could have asked some explanation to Eva Beatrice, and there could only be two possible outcomes:

I'm not a human
I'm both a human and a witch

Ther first sentence leads to: since Nanjo has definitely been killed by a human, you didn't killed nanjo, (neither a furniture did, since they don't count as human) -> CHECKMATE

The second sentence would lead to quite a lot of problems because completely defies everything we know about witches so far.

First off Eva Beatrice herself starts her perfect web attack with this premise:

"I'll teach you that i'm not Ushiromiya Eva nor a human"

Quite a contradiction!

This could have a somewhat cheap explanation. In other words Eva Beatrice could say that what she actually meant was she's not a "mere human". However she'd still be a "human witch".

We know that Bernkastel says that she was once a human, ergo she's not a human anymore, or does that also mean she was a "mere human"? Yet it's still difficult to consider Bern a Lambdadelta as humans.

Beatrice is even a better example. She definitely claims to be a spiritual entity, since she was trapped in a human body. Therefore she cannot be a "human with magical powers". Bernkastel also says that Beatrice is not exactly a person. I find it very difficult to believe that Beatrice could be defined as a human being even remotedly.

Eva Beatrice could be an exception, kinda like Maria being a witch apprentice and still a human being. However she denies to be Ushiromiya Eva.

Anyway let's just accept the idea that Eva Beatrice is a human with magical powers, or a spiritual being that controls a human being (as Ace suggests).
And who exactly would that human being be?

If we take for granted that anything in the perfect web of red truth is actually the truth, then we have 18 (or less) people in Rokkenjima (it looks like dead people still count as people).

3 of them (the survivors) are definitely innocent. Not only that, Eva Beatrice went as far as to tell that they have absolutely nothing to do with the murder of Nanjo. Not even a magical explanation could place them as murderers.

Then we supposedly have 15 dead people on rokkenjima.

If Eva Beatrice is a human then she must be one of the dead people or she cannot be the killer of Nanjo. Or she could have animated a dead corpse, but seriously, does that count as a human? °°

Anyway if we accept that everyone of the 18 persons we know are on rokkenjima (dead or alive) there is absolutely no place for a human witch, because that would count as a 19th persons. That witch must be either not a human (ergo not the killer of nanjo) or one of the 18 people.

Basically what i'm saying is that perfect web of red truth wasn't perfect at all. Battler had plenty of ways to corner Eva Beatrice into a contradiction.

There is actually a way to explain all of this, but Battler could have played smart and force Eva to do that instead.

In other words Battler should have pointed out that the perfect attack of Eva was so perfect that not only it denied the possibility of a human made murder but also the possibility of a witch made murder.

STALEMATE

Battler has a big advantage here, he only loses when he accepts the existance of witches. Battler cannot lose against a situation that is not explainable by the mean of a witch, it doesn't matter if that isn't explainable by human means either.

I think that if Battler did that Eva Beatrice would have resigned.

In fact if you believe (like i do) that witches do not exist, then there are a very few things that we can say while still not negating the red truths:

One of those 15 dead people is not on Rokkenjima, he probably died in another place and another time. Then another unknown person took his place.
So the 19th persons exists but it's actually the 18th because one of the 18 is not on Rokkenjima.

If you have another explanation please tell me! ^^

EDIT:

Spoiler for Episode 3:

Clockworkangel

This is the list whose death was confirmed in red when Eva Beatrice started her Web Attack:

Kinzo is dead
Krauss is dead
Natsuhi is dead
Hideyoshi is dead
George is dead
Rudolf is dead
Kyrie is dead
Rosa is dead
Maria is dead
Genji is dead
Shannon is dead
Kanon is dead
Gohda is dead
Kumasawa is dead
Nanjo is dead

So those three are definitely dead, unless they are not who they claim to be.

[Chadauw]

Spoiler for humans and witches:

It seems that for Eva-Beatrice, witches are human.

IIRC, she says that the murderer was a human in red, then says something like "but he had magic powers, so it was a witch".

Distinction between humans and witches isn't clear...

EDIT for dead people

Spoiler for dead people:

Like it was said before, the list of dead people is true after Nanjo was killed, since Nanjo is in the list. So it is very likely that Hideyoshi, Rudolf or Kyrie was faking his/her death and killed Nanjo, before dying.

Nanjo's death can be explained very easily with this, but it brings another problem : who did it and why did he/she died?

Everything seems to point Hideyoshi as the murderer (but it could be Ryukishi tricking us). Then perhaps he died because of a wound, or was killed by Eva just before the scene where she kills Battler.

I think that Nanjo's death isn't very difficult to explain, it is the murderer's death that is difficult, who can't even be sure who it was (Kyrie is indeed also suspicious).

[ClockWorkAngel]

@Jan-Poo

She confirmed them only AFTER Nanjo was killed, before Nanjo was killed The 3 mentioned were not confirmed. Timing is incredibly important.

[Jan-Poo]

Spoiler for episode 3:

She confirmed them only AFTER Nanjo was killed, before Nanjo was killed The 3 mentioned were not confirmed. Timing is incredibly important

I see, i haven't thought about that, however it shouldn't have passed too much time from the death of Nanjo, so the only realistic options are

Nanjo killed his murderer (double kill?)
Nanjo's murderer killed himself soon afterward.
Nanjo's murderer fell for a trap or had an aciddent soon afterward (this is very lame)

Battler never left Eva's side (since Jessica got injured) and he's not her accomplice, Jessica was unable to kill anyone.

Very unprobable, but i guess this still could have been used by Battler (as long as the probability isn't zero).


Anyway the definition of "human" was something that had to be explained since Eva Batrice definitely contraddicted herself

[crazysjd89]

Right before Eva did the red string of text, she partially admited defeat, "Fine! You win! I am Ushiromiya Eva!", or something like that, if I recall correctly.

Just looked it up.

Text:

……そうよ、確かに私は右代宮絵羽が犯人であることに対する指し手の全てを、撃退することができない。…… 私は黄金の魔女を引き摺り下ろされ、…今や、右代宮絵羽と呼ばれているかもしれない…。

……でもね、だからって魔法と魔女の存在が否定されたわけじゃない！！　…私が今から教えてやるわ…。私が 右代宮絵羽などではなく、ニンゲンなどではなく、……本当の魔女であることを、今から教えてや るわ…！！！

Basically, she's saying, "Fine, so what if I'm human. Can you still truly deny magic?"

EDIT~

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

You pretty much understand the contradiction.

Spoiler for response:

This can be explained a la Episode 2 Kanon. The "magic" explanation would be that Eva-Beatrice revived one of the 15 who were dead and had them kill Nanjo.

You could also say Eva Beatrice uses Raging Heart and hit him with a Starlight Breaker,

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Spoiler for Episode 3:

Clockworkangel

This is the list whose death was confirmed in red when Eva Beatrice started her Web Attack:

So those three are definitely dead, unless they are not who they claim to be.

Spoiler for response:

There are several ways around that. For one, and the most popular one, is that Eva-Beatrice stated these a while after Nanjo was dead, but they were never confirmed before then. So someone was still alive, killed Nanjo, than died themselves.

Another less popular theory is that one of those 15 was dead before going to the island, and someone "toke their place".

[Lady_Bernkastel]

Just finished the EP3....Wow it was amazing! Definitely better then the the first and second!
Truly interesting ~ and of course...More confusing things come up...

And...I have a question about something.

Spoiler for for EP3:

In the scene where Ange appears and tries to stop Battler from signing....I don't get it, isn't she 6 years old or something, that year? How is it possible that she's shown the same way after 12 years, and seems like she doesn't know a thing about the island, when she was there, and revealed the truth herself?

Oh and another thing: when Eva-Beato created her "red-truth-web", she probably did not only make it difficult for Battler - I believe that it also damages her. I mean, she erased many, MANY possibilities in the way as she claimed so many things....There must be something in there....Though I can't figure it out yet -_-''

I don't know, but since I started the game, I've got a feeling that Maria has something to do with everything. Well, if not everything, then maybe she did SOMETHING. It IS possible, but I haven't seen any theory about her....strange. And right because few thinks about her as an option, it will be surprising and unexpected if it IS her - and it fits with what everyone says, that Ryuukishi probably plans to do it the most unpredictable.
Maria shows up quite a lot in the opening, like she's really important. oh, and pay attention (though you probably noticed it XD) - in the last minute of the op, she has blood on her face, and her eyes are shadowed. It must be based on something. I...think XD....
I've also noticed that right behind her, you can see a tiny part of Beato! and I don't mean the portrait...look between her arm and head, you'll see her dress, though it's hard to see.
I took a screenshot , and brightened it ~

Spoiler for BloodyMaria and Beato behind:

I am sure if that's what it means, but maybe ....Beatrice uses Maria to kill everyone? and that's why she's behind her here. It's like she pulls the strings from the shadows, and Maria has blood on her face since she's the killer....Really, it's so typical for the creators of Higurashi to make a nine years old girl be the cruel culprit XD

Spoiler for Eva:

God, she had scary eyes before she shot Battler O__O I had a bad feeling about her since the beginning....Right from EP1 she reminded me Takano!

[ClockWorkAngel]

Spoiler for Ange:

The truth of the island was never discovered, infact there wasn't any evidence at Ep3's end for the police to use at all. She couldn't and didn't know anything. The Witch-Ange we know was brought from the future to aid Battler.

[Marion]

Spoiler for Episode 3 spoilers:

1) The Ange we met was Ange from 12 years in the future, Ange-Beatrice. As ClockWork said she was brought in to assist Battler.

2) Eva-Beatrice's goal was to beat Battler. To do that she would have to erase any possibilities of a human culprit, thus making him submit to witches. As we know she failed miserably at that with confessing about Nanjo.

3) That is the episode 1 OP. Back in Episode 1, Maria was basically the only person who believed in Beatrice existing while everyone else thought differently. Of course you never know - maybe Maria is the culprit Ryuu has a thing for female culprits, as we know from Higurashi.

4) Since we don't believe in witches the theory is that Eva snapped and went crazy after discovering the gold and began to kill everyone. IE: Everytime Eva-Beatrice showed up it was really snapped Eva.

[Nadeor]

Spoiler for Eva Beatrice & Ange:

Well that can explain a lot of things
But Hideyoshi's death...And also George's, it just seemed weird
If she's the true culprit, why did she kill Hideyoshi and George, who she loved the most in the world?
Can this be that someone else was killing as well at the same time?

Also, did Ange die from the fall?
In the TIPS she was only portraited as 'Her body remained back 12 years in the future'
Can this be that Ange was actually killed and her spirit went back?

[MuzikalNotes]

Originally Posted by Nadeor

Spoiler for Eva Beatrice & Ange:

Well that can explain a lot of things
But Hideyoshi's death...And also George's, it just seemed weird
If she's the true culprit, why did she kill Hideyoshi and George, who she loved the most in the world?
Can this be that someone else was killing as well at the same time?

Also, did Ange die from the fall?
In the TIPS she was only portraited as 'Her body remained back 12 years in the future'
Can this be that Ange was actually killed and her spirit went back?

Spoiler for Ange:

Actually, what I think that meant was that, when she went back 12 years into the past, her body did not have that of a 6-year-old, like Ange of the present, but that of an 18-year-old, like Ange of the future.
Well, that's what I think that meant, since the context is kinda confusing, and there is some evidence backing that up, but it's only in the beginning of ep4, so I'll keep my mouth shut.

[Avisch]

Spoiler for Ange :

What we're assuming is that Battler came to the meta-world after he died in episode 1.
Episode 1's tea party sort of set this up wierdly cause they first showed the Tea Party as some 4th Wall referrencing extra but then Beatrice challenges Battler at the end.

Ange soul/spirit is coming from the future to assist Battler. I think Bernkastel was mentioning that she would have to give up her real body to help Battler.....and Ange hated the life she was living so she didn't really have any dillema.

[Haruyan]

Originally Posted by Nadeor

Spoiler for Eva Beatrice & Ange:

Well that can explain a lot of things
But Hideyoshi's death...And also George's, it just seemed weird
If she's the true culprit, why did she kill Hideyoshi and George, who she loved the most in the world?
Can this be that someone else was killing as well at the same time?

Spoiler for Hideyoshi and George:

It could also be an accidental death. It wasn't stated in red, so it's possible. My theory is that Hideyoshi was an accomplice like Kyrie suspected, and turned on Eva while/after killing Rudolf and Kyrie, so Eva killed him (accidentally or not).

As for George's murder it could've been another culprit, or even suicide (I might go back on this, I can't remember what the TIPS said about his death).

[Jan-Poo]

Spoiler for Eva Beatrice:

This can be explained a la Episode 2 Kanon. The "magic" explanation would be that Eva-Beatrice revived one of the 15 who were dead and had them kill Nanjo.

You could also say Eva Beatrice uses Raging Heart and hit him with a Starlight Breaker

Spoiler for Eva beatrice:

You know i've been thinking a lot about that, anyway i only see two possible ways Eva Beatrice could give a logic explanation.

One is the thing you just said, however in doing that Eva would need to change her reconstruction of the facts. She claims that Nanjo was killed by a "human with magical powers" and what she has shown to Battler in the meta world is that that "human with magical powers" was her. She didn't show any other people around (dead or alive).

The problem here is while it is possible to accept that a non material witch doesn't count on the 18 people limit on rokkenjima, i really can't see by what logic a human witch shouldn't.

A possible explanation is that Eva Beatrice being a witch she can enter and leave Rokkenjima at will by entering in the meta world. This is a fishy explanation 'though...

Spoiler for Episode 3:

Oh and another thing: when Eva-Beato created her "red-truth-web", she probably did not only make it difficult for Battler - I believe that it also damages her. I mean, she erased many, MANY possibilities in the way as she claimed so many things....There must be something in there....Though I can't figure it out yet -_-''

Spoiler for Ep3:

I also think that Eva beatrice really used the red truth too much, she definitely narrowed down the possible explanations. I think her major blunder was to say that no other factors other than human play on the game board and that nanjo was definitely killed by a human
That really wasn't necessary, she had already won before that.

It seems that Beatrice puts a lot of efforts into denying the possibility of 19th unkown human being on Rokkenjima. And that also means Ryukishi himself is trying to deny it. Why would a mistery novel writer erase one of the biggest topic of speculations? If i turn the chessboard over i can only come to the conclusion that he wants us to forfeit that possibility. This could be because he's pretty confident that the real explanation will never be guessed (Lambdadelta says this game is perfect, so this is quite probable) and therefore removing all other conjectures would bring us at a loss. Or it could be because the 19th person actually exists?

The red truth denies that, however that is only true in mathematical terms. The people on Rokkenjima take for granted that they are 18 people, this has been said in several occasions. What if it isn't true? What if they are actually 17? In that case the 19th unknown person would be a 18th unknown person. This is just a conjecture :3. However if i apply this standpoint to Kinzo there's several questions that come into my mind: "Wasn't he supposed to die 9 months before?", "did Battler ever met him in the real world?", "Is that thing in the boiler room actually Kinzo's skeleton?".

Clockworkangel has yet another explanation to escape from the red web. Basically either Hideyoshi, Rudolf or Kirye, killed Nanjo and then died.

As the possible culprit, Maria is at the bottom of the list because there's no possible way a 9 year old girl could kill that many people without magic or supernatural. Unless she's a esper or unless she's able to hypnotize people @_@, anyway you'd need at least some degree of "fantasy" to place her as the villain. Then again Maria definitely died in the 3rd episode and several other deaths happened afterwards (yet hypnosis could still work...).

As Eva being the culprit, i dunno... it could be that this is like higurashi where everyone becomes an assassin (except Mion and Rika as far as i remember) while the villain is someone else. Anyway Eva is certainly not the key to solve this mistery.