Clannad ~After Story~ - Episode 16 Discussion / Poll

[Proto]

the jerk who could care less about people

/me welcomes Haruyasha to ep.15(+/- 1) of S1.

No wait, scrap that, what series have you been watching anyway?

Tomoya would be much more fixated on the death of Nagisa rather than Ushio's birth.. so playing that happy music is pointless as it puts Tomoya completely out of character.

Maybe if you hadn't been fast asleep in that Universal literature lecture you would remember that it is an oxymoron, an artistic resource that involves the mixture of two opposed ideas to produce a certain reaction from the apparent contradiction. An example I can remember right now is Stanley Kubrick's A Clockwork Orange, in many of the more extreme scenes of the movie (murder,suicide,rape), while they happen Beethoven 9th symphony 'Ode to Joy' plays in the background.

BTW it wasn't Dango Daikazoku, but an arrangement on Nagisa's theme.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Kristen

I was a bit surprised in their choice of Umarekawatta Atarashii Seimei for the death scene, but you know, it fit really well. I was expecting something vocal sung in the background, but I suppose this worked.

Sorry, what song is that...?

Originally Posted by Haruyasha

You can't even compare the two. The last episode of AIR perfectly conveyed the emotion of loss and could put tears into eyes.

Clannad's attempt was a joke beyond all jokes.

Spoiler:

It focuses too much on Ushio's birth rather than the death of Nagisa.

I believe the Clannad movie's execution was a lot better.. partially for not playing that stupid happy-themed Dango song.. and instead having weak little Nagisa sing it under her breath.

Spoiler:

Just like a mentioned above. This show isn't about Ushio.. While Ushio's birth is amazing and all.. this is Okazaki Tomoya we're talking about.. the jerk who could care less about people, much less Ushio. Tomoya would be much more fixated on the death of Nagisa rather than Ushio's birth.. so playing that happy music is pointless as it puts Tomoya completely out of character.

Wow. You've seriously managed to impress me.

The dango song is not a happy song. It was not meant to be a happy song, and it never will be a happy song.

...Are we watching the same show?


Anyway, bloody fantastic episode. Epic ten out of ten is ten out of ten.

Really gotta credit Yuuichi Nakamura for his performance here. Really damned good job of bringing out emotion.

No wonder I didn't cry when this happened in the game. Tomoya isn't voiced... -_-

[panzerfan]

To Haruyasha and others that merely focus on Tomoya...

That scope is too narrow in itself to consider. Naoyuki of course would've been guilty of the same gross irresponsibility that you've perceived from Tomoya, but what of Sanae and Akio? Please don't become preoccupied with only Tomoya that you lose perspective on the wider scale over the actual impact from the event.

If you say 'focus on death of Nagasa instead of birth of Ushio', aren't you also being conceited as Tomoya who is now accused to be just as such?

To those that might have become deadened in emotional response by having been spoiled, I say to please think of the scenario, this all-too-ordinary scenario that I've no doubt shouldn't be too distant a thought for you. Young couple that made the step to bear children and start a family of their own, couples that decided to not go that route, people that dread the notion of having a family at this stage of life... many here fall within the age that this becomes common sight. If you evaluate this episode from the bigger picture, it won't be so limited by whatever outcome that you've stumbled upon anymore.

[LunarSun]

Originally Posted by maverickudo

-cries- i read wikipedia....i spoiled the last few episodes for myself. i won't spoil it here though. most of us knew it was coming..but the episode was teasing you for a bit though..like..maybe she WONT die..but you knew u were lying to urself. lol it looked great. interesting choice about home birth and all. tomaya earned his oscar there.

i read wikipedia too after i saw ur post lol......*hitting my head on the wall*
now i regret it

but the story seemed pretty good so i hope they follow the game story

and yes.. air's ending was alot more emotional than this ep but understand theres still 10 episode left if they added a scene like the ending of air the next 10 ep will seem plain and dull

[Haruyasha]

Originally Posted by Proto

BTW it wasn't Dango Daikazoku, but an arrangement on Nagisa's theme.

Dango theme is the same thing as Nagisa minus the lyrics.

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Wow. You've seriously managed to impress me.

The dango song is not a happy song. It was not meant to be a happy song, and it never will be a happy song.

A song which sings about family and a sense of belonging is not a happy song? It's supposed to give you a warm fuzzy feeling.

All the more to prove my point that using such a theme is like using reverse psychology on the viewers.

[OmegaPhlare]

Originally Posted by Haruyasha

You can't even compare the two. The last episode of AIR perfectly conveyed the emotion of loss and could put tears into eyes.

Clannad's attempt was a joke beyond all jokes.

Spoiler:

It focuses too much on Ushio's birth rather than the death of Nagisa.

I believe the Clannad movie's execution was a lot better.. partially for not playing that stupid happy-themed Dango song.. and instead having weak little Nagisa sing it under her breath.

Spoiler:

Just like a mentioned above. This show isn't about Ushio.. While Ushio's birth is amazing and all.. this is Okazaki Tomoya we're talking about.. the jerk who could care less about people, much less Ushio. Tomoya would be much more fixated on the death of Nagisa rather than Ushio's birth.. so playing that happy music is pointless as it puts Tomoya completely out of character.

You really feel that way? Perhaps you might have been paying too much attention to Ushio's crying rather than observing Tomoya or trying to empathize him. Other than the point where Tomoya himself looks at the baby, my entire focus was on Tomoya's expression and how far Nagisa was exhausted. I feel like this birth had almost nothing to do with the baby so much as it had to do with them. Yes, Tomoya tries to move the focus onto Ushio, but honestly, you know that he just wants Nagisa to stay with him that moment.

---

Spoiler for Episode and AIR:

It pains me so much to to see the family during that scene; far beyond that last scene in AIR. AIR was the loss of a very important character as seen from a third person's perspective, but CLANNAD was the loss of a very important character who was the true love of a character you are supposed to feeling like.

Misuzu was a very special person, but she didn't risk her own life to do give the gift of life. It was just one small life, but to Nagisa, that life was more important than her own. Brilliant.

[kk2extreme]

There are some heartless people out there who did not see the emotional impact in this ep. Clannad is about spring, birth of lives. of course it would be focus on the birth of ushio, nagisa's death is so sad, im surprised that i read some heartless commands on how this ep and did anyone see how sad and hopeless emotion of tomoya, for someone who is seeing the death of his wife in exchange for the life of the baby, this adds to the emotional impact for me, and nagisa i salute you. I dont think tomoya could act any other ways than this. For me this is the best ep yet in both seasons.

[Ithekro]

If the Clannad TV version of Dango Daikazoku is suppose to be a happy song...why does it make me want to cry? Even during the first season it started having that effect.

The movie version of Dango Daikazoku is rather uplifting. It is all about arrangement of the music. The TV version's lyrics are suppose to be uplifting, but the musical score (Nagisa's theme and I think another theme as well) counterpoint them depending on what point of the song you are at. The middle seems to have hope...but the beginning and ending of it...can be painful if it tries.

As for the episode:

Spoiler for White Darkness:

During the focused exchange between Tomoya and Nagisa in the white...You can't see anyone else aside from those two and the baby. Even though there are three other people in the room. And I could swear I could hear them once or twice during the scene...but was unable to pick out what they said.
To quote a similarly voiced character: "Kana. Kana."

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Haruyasha

Dango theme is the same thing as Nagisa minus the lyrics.

They're actually somewhat different. The Dango theme uses the opening strains of the Nagisa theme, but the rest of the song is to the tune of Chiisana Tenohira, the True End theme.

Of course, Chiisana Tenohira is just a vocal remix of the Nagisa theme. But still.

Originally Posted by Haruyasha

A song which sings about family and a sense of belonging is not a happy song? It's supposed to give you a warm fuzzy feeling.

All the more to prove my point that using such a theme is like using reverse psychology on the viewers.

Nail. Head. Hit.

That's the entire damn point of the song. It's supposed to SOUND happy. But it's not a happy song.

Look at it like this: That song was written FOR the death scene. It's the song that plays WHILE SHE DIES.

Is it a happy song now?

[typhonsentra]

You know the post that got deleted wasn't actually a hint of anything.... I was referring to the rather blatant and aggressive foreshadowing the past two seasons rather than any inside information from the game.

[Divini]

On the topic of songs, try watching the OP sequence again after watching this episode.

Not only will gain more clarity at the meaning of the lyrics, but you'll also feel empathy at the 'theme' of the song, the theme being Reminiscing

For me, it also made me feel sad at it flooded me with memories of Nagisa

[harukamae]

My brothers and sisters....

Spoiler for ep 16 spoilers:

Please take a moment to hug a Dango in remembrance...


Seriously though, I thought things may play out this way, but I didn't think it would make me tear up the way it did!! KyoAni did pretty well with the whole thing!

[GameMaster0000]

Spoiler for Story : Tomoya's Emotion:

After I see subbed. It's make me cry more than raw.

Seem here no one focus on Tomoya's emotion

He flame himself that he is the cause of Nagisa dead, he think that if he not call her on at that time they first met together. Nagisa won't put effort give ushio birth and she dies and they not met sadness like this.

[sayde]

Wow.

Spoiler for the obvious:

So she's really dead!?

I didn't get that impression based on the way the music sounded during those scenes. It just didn't sound sad enough for someone who's dying IMO. It was really misleading. That music combined with the overall light-hearted tone of the series and the fact that she was slipping in and out of consciousness while going through labor had me convinced that she ended up simply falling unconscious again (or slipped into a temporary coma at the worst) The standard ED also didn't help matters much.

Apparently I was wrong. I'm just grateful that I couldn't bring myself to get nearly as attached to the whole TomoyaxNagisa pair as some of the rest of you. Otherwise, I think my entire week would've just been ruined.

I know it may sound cruel, but I can't wait to see what the rest of the series has in store now that Nagisa's gone. I was pretty convinced this anime was going to go the way of "Itazura na Kiss" by having Nagisa pull through and having the last one or two episodes be extremely happy and light-hearted.

btw, if you're looking for a feel-good romance comedy anime to watch to get your mind off this, I highly recommend the anime I mentioned above. It made me feel so warm and fuzzy inside. It's perhaps the one and only example of an anime that can brighten my day up by merely thinking about it (which is really rare and incredibly weird for me).

[Shiroi Hane]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Another way to do it is to not put any music at all, and let the silence speak for itself. I too think that the ED was out of place after such a gutwrenching scene.

Like the credits for the final episode of Doctor Who: Earthshock. Have any other series done this more recently? I'm sure I've seen something where the ED was replaced by the sound of rain but I can't put my finger on it.

[hydropod]

As a gamer I thought I make it through the episode without crying, but at 19:43-44 I still completely lost it. That little sigh from Nagisa.... was that a sigh of contentment, or a sigh of regret? Comepletely lost control of my tears rght there.

[Zeroseraph]

Damn I knew this was coming but it still hits you very hard and even worst for me is that my friend sent me the full episode with the crappy ED replaced with the full version of Dango Daikazoku. So being able to see it with that song drove a nail threw my heart and i couldn't stop crying just sitting and just in such a deep thought at the sadness and beauty of the episode.

[Spectacular_Insanity]

I just watched the episode.

T_T

[SnackPacs]

Originally Posted by Haruyasha

You can't even compare the two. The last episode of AIR perfectly conveyed the emotion of loss and could put tears into eyes.

Clannad's attempt was a joke beyond all jokes.

Spoiler:

It focuses too much on Ushio's birth rather than the death of Nagisa.

I think it came off to you wrong or you hadn't been led in properly. Because I myself wasn't focused on Ushio's birth in anyway at all. The pain Nagisa went through, the suffering of her labor, only to have it take so much energy out of her to end her life... That's what I saw in the scene. The music was representing the fruition and their desire to make a family but... It came at a cost. =/

Tomoya... just doesn't realize yet that because Nagisa is gone doesn't mean it's the end of all that around him. Yes, we know he loved Nagisa more than anything in the world but if I had to bet, he'll probably come to realize that even though she's gone, she could live on through Ushio or at the least, he could give as much parental love to Ushio as he gave romantic love towards Nagisa.

But the trauma is just going to be too dramatic. This is honestly... A bad episode for anyone with bitterness towards where the show was going, with her death and whatnot, to see now with no episode to follow afterward for a week...

Really, this is more of a two parter than last week's episode was IMHO.

[panzerfan]

Originally Posted by Zeroseraph

friend sent me the full episode with the crappy ED replaced with the full version of Dango Daikazoku.

That is despicable... which dubber was evil enough to commit such an atrocity....