Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

[kanoguti]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Duration is one of the least important problems of TLJ.

Also, something comprehensive needs time and space. It’s not like the video-maker use the duration pointlessly. He’s fully analyzing the problems bit by bit. If you want a shorter review, well, look somewhere else, these videos are not.

And it's funny how some people throw blanket statements to those who dislike TLJ but when presented a valid and comprehensive analysis of the movie like the above videos, they just dismiss it as "nerd nitpicks" when it addresses many valid things such as TLJ's writing that's very problematic on its own regardless of it being in SW franchise or not.

He's talking about how Kylo Ren's ship goes through a forcefield, like, OKAY LOL. Not even relevant to the film from an artistic perspective.

This guys videos are "comprehensive" in the worst way. I mean he's nitpicking stuff like Kylo Ren's spaceship going through a forcefeild in one scene, rather than stuff that actually matters. For people like me, who value their precious time, they can't be bothered to listen to some angry nerd gripe about make-believe ships. But I can entertain the idea of listening to an angry nerd gripe about how the shots are composed in the star wars movies.

I mean, take a look at the Mr. Plinkett reviews for the star wars movies. Overall, they're shorter, go more in-depth, have comedy inter-sliced, uses scenes from the movie to explain the point clearly (unlike this movie, which is just taking the movie, scene by scene, and having a nerdo loser getting angry over every little detail in every frame) and in the end, a better product. See, it conveys a point, but it doesn't waste my time. It entertains me, but it doesn't waste my time.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by kanoguti

He's talking about how Kylo Ren's ship goes through a forcefield, like, OKAY LOL. Not even relevant to the film from an artistic perspective.

For that part, TLJ is a sequel in SW-verse. As a sequel, the writing should be in-line with what’s come before. The whole ordeal with Kylo Ren’s fighter & forcefield did not line-up with the rules established in the OT. Heck, it didn’t even match up with Rogue One which is Disney’s own product. It’s a legit criticism. If TLJ is a standalone movie, that part will be fine, but it was made as a sequel.

Originally Posted by kanoguti

This guys videos are "comprehensive" in the worst way. I mean he's nitpicking stuff like Kylo Ren's spaceship going through a forcefeild in one scene, rather than stuff that actually matters. For people like me, who value their precious time, they can't be bothered to listen to some angry nerd gripe about make-believe ships. But I can entertain the idea of listening to an angry nerd gripe about how the shots are composed in the star wars movies.

I mean, take a look at the Mr. Plinkett reviews for the star wars movies. Overall, they're shorter, go more in-depth, have comedy inter-sliced, uses scenes from the movie to explain the point clearly (unlike this movie, which is just taking the movie, scene by scene, and having a nerdo loser getting angry over every little detail in every frame) and in the end, a better product. See, it conveys a point, but it doesn't waste my time. It entertains me, but it doesn't waste my time.

Hahaha. Let me tell you something, the video-maker (Mauler) already made a shorter video about TLJ before this. It was a big hit with the viewers. The viewers like the shorter video so much that they requested even more comprehensive and longer videos (plus less cursing). And so he made this trilogy of critiques due to a great number of people’s requests. People actually want him to make longer and more detailed videos and he delivered.

Also, nobody ever forced you to watch his videos. If you think your time is too precious for them, then don't watch them ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

[kanoguti]

detailed =/= bitching about kylo ren's ship.
Seriously.

And yes, I do agree it's legit criticism, but that doesn't mean it's relevant and it CERTAINLY doesn't deserve 5-minutes of time. Add this 5-minutes to his other nerd nitpicks, and it becomes clear this video is just padding.

Now, if he's just responding to his fanbase, that's fine, but his """detailed""" criticism is overly bloated. I hope his fans realize that there are better ways to spend there time, for instance, watching better youtube reviews which cover the same subject matter.

Oh, and lets not forget your rebuttal to someone in this thread was "bro, watch this trilogy of videos (4+ hours) about how TLJ sucks!" Like, what?

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by kanoguti

detailed =/= bitching about kylo ren's ship.
Seriously.

Yeah, keep dismissing legit insight as "bitching". I'm sure that'll work well for you.

Originally Posted by kanoguti

And yes, I do agree it's legit criticism, but that doesn't mean it's relevant and it CERTAINLY doesn't deserve 5-minutes of time. Add this 5-minutes to his other nerd nitpicks, and it becomes clear this video is just padding.

Padding is when the videomaker used the time pointlessly, not when he has a lot of points to say.

Originally Posted by kanoguti

Now, if he's just responding to his fanbase, that's fine, but his """detailed""" criticism is overly bloated. I hope his fans realize that there are better ways to spend there time, for instance, watching better youtube reviews which cover the same subject matter.

It's fine if you think it's bloated. You're entitled to your opinion, but the number of Likes the videos get proves that your views are not shared by a lot of people. Also, do you really think the people who like his video haven't watched RedLetterMedia and other videos about TLJ before? Think again. I bet many of the same people who like RLM videos also like his videos. It's possible that people can like both approach.

Originally Posted by kanoguti

Oh, and lets not forget your rebuttal to someone in this thread was "bro, watch this trilogy of videos (4+ hours) about how TLJ sucks!" Like, what?

No. I'm giving him something to check out. It's up to him to check it out or not. The moment you play the videos, the duration time-stamp is displayed for your consideration to continue watching or not. There's this thing called "recommending" you know. It doesn't equal "forcing". And this is what I actually said:
"These trilogy videos are the more comprehensive critiques on TLJ which point out almost all the problems"

Do you sense any "forcing" there?

EDIT:
My rebuttal is not necessarily the videos. My rebuttal is this:

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

That movie has so many more issues than just "Not providing the fans what they want".

[kanoguti]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Yeah, keep dismissing legit insight as "bitching". I'm sure that'll work well for you.

Legit insight =/= Bitching

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Padding is when the videomaker used the time pointlessly, not when he has a lot of points to say.

No, that's my point. He doesn't have lots of points to say. He just spends tons of time on every little "issue," such as Kylo Ren's ship. This is indisputable.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

It's fine if you think it's bloated. You're entitled to your opinion, but the number of Likes the videos get proves that your views are not shared by a lot of people. Also, do you really think the people who like his video haven't watched RedLetterMedia and other videos about TLJ before? Think again. I bet many of the same people who like RLM videos also like his videos. It's possible that people can like both approach.

Just because a video gets a lot of likes, doesn't mean that this person's video style is more valid than someone elses style. Obviously. Views and likes are irrelevant to this discussion.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

No. I'm giving him something to check out. It's up to him to check it out or not. The moment you play the videos, the duration time-stamp is displayed for your consideration to continue watching or not. There's this thing called "recommending" you know. It doesn't equal "forcing". And this is what I actually said:
"These trilogy videos are the more comprehensive critiques on TLJ which point out almost all the problems"

Yes, but you yourself provided no arguments or statements about why TLJ was not a good movie in your post. From this, the person you are responding to can only surmise that they need to watch these 3 videos (4+ hours) to understand your opinion or at least an opinion you agree with, because, again, you never provided your opinion upfront in your response to that user.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Do you sense any "forcing" there?

Yes, if that user wanted to know your opinion they are forced to watch the 4+ hour video. I mean, if they want to know "a comprehensive reason why TLJ sucks," they need to watch a 4+ hour video series, instead of you summing up the points.
If they want to know the "so many more issues" TLJ has, they're forced to watch the 4+ hour video series. So in a sense, yes, if they want to understand the problems with TLJ, they're forced to watch a 4+ hour video series with nerd-nitpicks about Kylo Ren's ship. LOL

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

EDIT:
My rebuttal is not necessarily the videos. My rebuttal is this: "That movie has so many more issues than just "Not providing the fans what they want"."

So, to get this straight, your rebuttal is saying that The Last Jedi has so many more issues, but you do not list or even mention those "issues" in your response to that user. Got it.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by kanoguti

Legit insight =/= Bitching

Mauler Video =/= bitching. See? I can play this game too .

You're already dead-set on labeling the comprehensive review as "bitching" that no amount of common sense can sway you. It's no use.

Originally Posted by kanoguti

No, that's my point. He doesn't have lots of points to say. He just spends tons of time on every little "issue," such as Kylo Ren's ship. This is indisputable.

The very points of his Critique Trilogy videos are addressing most of the issues from minor to major. Why? Because he already talked about the “big issues” in his previous shorter video. The Critique Trilogy is the place where he addressed all the issues that he can find (big and small), by people’s request.

Your complaining of the Critique Trilogy being too detailed & very long is like complaining that a manual book is too wordy and specific. That’s kinda the point . Whether or not you find entertainment in that is up to you but thousands of people certainly like the videos, now that is indisputable.

Originally Posted by kanoguti

Just because a video gets a lot of likes, doesn't mean that this person's video style is more valid than someone elses style. Obviously. Views and likes are irrelevant to this discussion.

You kidding me? You’re the one who started to compare the “qualities” between RLM TLJ video and Mauler’s Critique Trilogy videos. You’re the one who diss one video and praise the other. I never said that Mauler's video is better than RLM. I think both RLM & Mauler’s videos are equally good in different aspects.

Comparing both TLJ videos is like comparing apples and oranges because they’re made with different style and different purpose. RLM review video is made mainly for lighthearted conversation and entertainment with shorter length (I like that). Mauler’s Critique Trilogy is made to be very detailed and long to fulfill the audiences’ request to him to make the videos exactly like those (I also like that). Both videos serve different purposes. You can’t compare an SUV and a bus using the same variables and then complaining that the bus is too big compared to the SUV. You can like one over the other, but that doesn't make the other invalid.

Originally Posted by kanoguti

Yes, but you yourself provided no arguments or statements about why TLJ was not a good movie in your post. From this, the person you are responding to can only surmise that they need to watch these 3 videos (4+ hours) to understand your opinion or at least an opinion you agree with, because, again, you never provided your opinion upfront in your response to that user.

Yes, if that user wanted to know your opinion they are forced to watch the 4+ hour video. I mean, if they want to know "a comprehensive reason why TLJ sucks," they need to watch a 4+ hour video series, instead of you summing up the points.
If they want to know the "so many more issues" TLJ has, they're forced to watch the 4+ hour video series. So in a sense, yes, if they want to understand the problems with TLJ, they're forced to watch a 4+ hour video series with nerd-nitpicks about Kylo Ren's ship. LOL

So, to get this straight, your rebuttal is saying that The Last Jedi has so many more issues, but you do not list or even mention those "issues" in your response to that user. Got it.

Look bub, surely you’re not new when it comes to movie-fandom. TLJ has been a big source of controversy in the world of Hollywood entertainment for a while now. There are dozens of articles & videos addressing TLJ’s issues both from those who like and dislike TLJ. I assume Chosen Hero is already knowledgeable enough to know most of those issues which are unrelated to “giving what the fans want” since I’m not in the mood to parrot what many people have already said. If he doesn’t know, well, the Mauler’s Critique Trilogy videos are my recommendation to him since they list, describe, review and elaborate almost all of the issues in TLJ. Whether or not he would watch them is his choice.

So, my reply to Chosen Hero functions as a reminder and a recommendation. I might write down those issues myself if he ask me personally if I have the time, or I'll just provide an article or two.

Originally Posted by kanoguti

4+ hour video series with nerd-nitpicks about Kylo Ren's ship. LOL

Such ignorant and false statement. You stopped midway during the videos did you? Because if you don’t, you’d certainly know that the videos are more than that (unless you’re lying). Thousands of people won’t like the videos if they are just “4+ hour video series with nerd-nitpicks about Kylo Ren's ship”. Disliking the videos is fine and dandy. Ignore the videos if you like, but you can’t judge the said videos that you didn’t properly watch. Otherwise, your words hold no weight whatsoever.

[kanoguti]

This was never a debate between the RLM video and Maulers video. My point is that, Mauler's video is a big waste of time because he "reviews" aspects of the films which are of little importance.

RLM's videos break downs the thematic elements of the film, which Mauler's videos are more of a 50/50 split between nerd-shit like Kylo Ren's ship, and analyzing the thematic elements.

My argument is that, when we are discussing the qualities of a film, discussing the thematic elements of said film is WAY more important than discussing things such as Kylo Ren's ship.

And my opinion is that, it's pointless to watch a 4+ hour video series which there are better ways to spend your time.

[CrowKenobi]

I do believe that all that can be said has been said about said topic and let's just move on. If you need to discuss it further, take it to PM or VM.

Thank you.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

^ One more thing, CrowKenobi. One more thing.

Originally Posted by kanoguti

This was never a debate between the RLM video and Maulers video. My point is that, Mauler's video is a big waste of time because he "reviews" aspects of the films which are of little importance.

RLM's videos break downs the thematic elements of the film, which Mauler's videos are more of a 50/50 split between nerd-shit like Kylo Ren's ship, and analyzing the thematic elements.

My argument is that, when we are discussing the qualities of a film, discussing the thematic elements of said film is WAY more important than discussing things such as Kylo Ren's ship.

Which Mauler already done just that in his shorter video before the Critique Trilogy. The Critique Trilogy is his fan-pleasing-only thing. SUV vs Bus. Different purpose, see?

Originally Posted by kanoguti

And my opinion is that, it's pointless to watch a 4+ hour video series which there are better ways to spend your time.

Good. That's your opinion. I disagree with you along with thousands of other people who like his Trilogy videos. We clear?

[Akito Kinomoto]

The expectation is for people to self-elucidate on any piece of fiction instead of relying on other summations as a substitute for ubiquitous thought, rather than using other critiques to assist in constructing viewpoints. Pundits from Doug Walker to RLM to every voice between comprehend this fundamental understanding of how artistic analysis works

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Akuma Kousaka

The expectation is for people to self-elucidate on any piece of fiction instead of relying on other summations as a substitute for ubiquitous thought, rather than using other critiques to assist in constructing viewpoints. Pundits from Doug Walker to RLM to every voice between comprehend this fundamental understanding of how artistic analysis works

Indeed. As the one who posted the Doug Walker/Nostalgia Critic's (+ Stuckmann & CinemaSnob) TLJ video in this thread, I fully understand. Believe me, I have a lot of things to say about TLJ in my mind that would resulted in a super wall of text if I were to type it down, but then I stopped to think and came to a conclusion: at the end of the day, TLJ is not worth all that effort from me. My problems with TLJ was already well-represented (rather exhaustively) by thousands of people and parties out there, and some of them have a lot more powers and listeners than me. China's Box Office result and Wall Street Journal report being two of them. Disney will surely take some notes, so I'll just sit back and see how they'll fix it in ep. IX, or simply crash and burn. It's better to save my energy to comment about anime that's generally more obscure and niche than Star Wars .

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Akuma Kousaka

The biggest offender for character though is the purple haired commander who comes across as a scolding mother instead of a strict C.O., compounded with egregiouis reasoning that she had no reason to keep to herself, ended up neutering what would've been an effective climax for her character arc.

This again. Why would Holdo make the plan general knowledge when all it would take is one traitor to ruin it, which is in fact what actually happened? She certainly didn’t need to tell Poe anything, considering he was demoted for disobeying orders.

[Akito Kinomoto]

Let me unpack this for you

Withholding operation info is reminiscent of the First Order and not the Rebel Alliance so anyone in the dark would have reason to doubt her by the same metric and table the fact the plan was successfully sabotaged by someone outside her jurisdiction means she had the onus to make sure her crew trusted her anyway if the door is open in this discussion for hindsight to allow working backwards from the conclusion while at the same time the observation on her personality evoking an egregious portrayal of those who hold such positions has not been addressed and it is in fact the combination of both of these that made her character insufferable

[Anh_Minh]

... You really think a clandestine resistance movement like the Rebel Alliance could survive if they don't know how to keep secrets? And are you completely absolving Finn and Rose of their role in the sabotage, or do you call them "outside her jurisdiction"?

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Akuma Kousaka

Let me unpack this for you

Withholding operation info is reminiscent of the First Order and not the Rebel Alliance

Huh? A clandestine rebellion is just as likely to compartmentalize information than a military, more so in fact. A single traitor that knows too much can ruin the whole thing.

the fact the plan was successfully sabotaged by someone outside her jurisdiction

The plan was ruined because Poe, Finn and Rose can’t follow orders.

means she had the onus to make sure her crew trusted her anyway

What reason do they, or rather Poe have for not trusting her?

the observation on her personality evoking an egregious portrayal of those who hold such positions has not been addressed and it is in fact the combination of both of these that made her character insufferable

What was wrong with her personality to you anyway?

[Kakurin]

Originally Posted by Akuma Kousaka

Let me unpack this for you

Withholding operation info is reminiscent of the First Order and not the Rebel Alliance so anyone in the dark would have reason to doubt her by the same metric and table the fact the plan was successfully sabotaged by someone outside her jurisdiction means she had the onus to make sure her crew trusted her anyway if the door is open in this discussion for hindsight to allow working backwards from the conclusion while at the same time the observation on her personality evoking an egregious portrayal of those who hold such positions has not been addressed and it is in fact the combination of both of these that made her character insufferable

Please leave punctuation marks. They are there for a reason. Your post is barely readable and the points you are trying to make are hardly discernable.

[Akito Kinomoto]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

... You really think a clandestine resistance movement like the Rebel Alliance could survive if they don't know how to keep secrets? And are you completely absolving Finn and Rose of their role in the sabotage, or do you call them "outside her jurisdiction"?

Originally Posted by Endscape

Huh? A clandestine rebellion is just as likely to compartmentalize information than a military, more so in fact. A single traitor that knows too much can ruin the whole thing.

The plan was ruined because Poe, Finn and Rose can’t follow orders.

What reason do they, or rather Poe have for not trusting her?

What was wrong with her personality to you anyway?

Originally Posted by Kakurin

Please leave punctuation marks. They are there for a reason. Your post is barely readable and the points you are trying to make are hardly discernable.

Well let's see if I can't simplify this even more

-Withholding top secret information is not mutually exclusive from giving context for general direction
-DJ was the one who sabotaged an actual escape, thus it's outside Holdo's jurisdiction. Kamikaze distraction or not, not knowing which was the bluff between the mothership and the escape shuttles would not have stopped the FO ships present from gunning both of them
-Then combined with the way Holdo is portrayed, ostensibly coming across as a scolding parent and not a strict military C.O. gives the distinction of incompetence instead of being misguided
--I would readily suggest Admiral Stenz from Godzilla (2014) as an example of how this character is supposed to be done, as with much less screentime he's portrayed correctly as a character forced into tough decisions and not wagging his finger at people for disagreeing with him

P.S.: I do not blame anyone for extrapolating snippets from the rest of the context if it's more comfortable to deal with points without the other conditions to substantiate it

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Akuma Kousaka

-Withholding top secret information is not mutually exclusive from giving context for general direction

She did give context. She told him she had a plan.

-DJ was the one who sabotaged an actual escape, thus it's outside Holdo's jurisdiction.

DJ would never have had the opportunity to sabotage anything if it wasn't for Poe, Finn and Rose.

-Then combined with the way Holdo is portrayed, ostensibly coming across as a scolding parent and not a strict military C.O. gives the distinction of incompetence instead of being misguided

You're not even making sense here. How was she not strict? Does she need to bark orders or wear a uniform or something?

[Akito Kinomoto]

I was expecting intellectual honesty in acknowledging the context surrounding the points that were divorced from surrounding information but it seems like I expected too much. Sorry about that

[Ithekro]

The Old Rebel Alliance worked on a cell structure in an effort to protect both those above and below any individual cell. The Resistance has similar workings by default.

Poe had just caused the unnessicary deaths of his squadron hunting down a Dreadnaught (which didn't need to be killed right then). He was demoted and placed outside the need to know by Leia as an effort to get him to learn how to be a better leader. Haldo recognized Poe's type from experiance and correctly guesed that he would oppose her plan, violently. What she didn't take into account was that Finn might break out, and when she found out she was against the plan because it was even more of a long shot than what she was doing. That the fleet jumped there before the First Order was even actively known to be chasing them must means that out of the way outposts like this are almost standard fleet procedure. A place within a day or so at sublight speeds just in case there is a hyperspace problem or an Imperial fleet in tow.