To Aru Majutsu no Index LN - New Testament Volume 15 Discussion / Poll

[Tiken]

Originally Posted by blue great

guys i want ask because the prologue make me confuse

is misaka the new evil now?

what was that extrange reaction on birdway in the hospital on chapter 5?

what happened with president jumpimg bunny in the end?

and why aleister now whants to kill touma i believed he needs touma for something very big but now i just feel like i dont give a shit about the plan lets just kill touma after more than 22 vol 1 season and 14 vol second season doesnt make sense

pd sorry my bad english

He never said he wanted to kill Touma. He specifically said that both Kakeru and Misaka (if she continues interfering with his plans) must be eliminated. But Its more likely that Touma will probably pull a John McCLane and dive in front the bullet at the last second. That, or at least get his hand cut off again...and stuff..

[Last_Aeon]

I think Touma is important BUT NOT necessary in Aleister's plan. Firstly is because he was replaceable. Touma's right hand can store any entity, including something greater if he wants to. This is true until Touma started having connections to the world, and slowly became an 'aberration' or in other worlds out of control, to the plan Aleister has in the first place. He tried to kill Touma off in WW2, but realised that killing him would totally mess everything up, so he refrained from doing so.

Mikoto however is now also starting to turn into an aberration too, so Aleister wants to kill her before she can spread more damage to his plans.

[tsunade666]

lol, touma not important to Aleister's plan and plan to kill Touma in WW 3? did you mistake it for accelerator? remember, what happen in the end of WW 3? aleister had gone out of his hiki ways inside his tower just to silence an eyewitness. Though currently, Aleister is having control problem with things getting out of hand which is why his going hands on approach.

Touma can't be replaced in Aleister's plan. Mikoto isn't involved in it. Her used had stopped since she've given her DNA code for the sisters. After that, she's useless esper like the other millions inside academy city.

As for stress?.... looks at NT 9 >_> yeeeeeeeeeeeeeee cause getting yourself killed again and again is not stressful enough compare to seeing a kihara with WR.

Kamachi is a good plot writer but I can't say for story telling. Well, like I said. I've already given up on index series and people should stop overestimating or putting too much faith in the series. it has flaws. lots of it. like how touma just gave up in the near end and let himself get killed instead of pulling the trigger. poor salome and mikoto or whatever bystander + kamisato and her annoyingharemb*tches. they are abandoned to die because he choose not to shoot.

[Kuroageha]

Also, I don't know if the awful pacing from NT comes from him or the editorial.

[KnightShade]

i'll ask this out of curiosity; if you've given up on a series and only come here to lement about it and tell others to not put faith in this series....

dont you think you're wasting your time?

[dniv]

Originally Posted by tsunade666

lol, touma not important to Aleister's plan and plan to kill Touma in WW 3? did you mistake it for accelerator? remember, what happen in the end of WW 3? aleister had gone out of his hiki ways inside his tower just to silence an eyewitness. Though currently, Aleister is having control problem with things getting out of hand which is why his going hands on approach.

Touma can't be replaced in Aleister's plan. Mikoto isn't involved in it. Her used had stopped since she've given her DNA code for the sisters. After that, she's useless esper like the other millions inside academy city.

As for stress?.... looks at NT 9 >_> yeeeeeeeeeeeeeee cause getting yourself killed again and again is not stressful enough compare to seeing a kihara with WR.

Kamachi is a good plot writer but I can't say for story telling. Well, like I said. I've already given up on index series and people should stop overestimating or putting too much faith in the series. it has flaws. lots of it. like how touma just gave up in the near end and let himself get killed instead of pulling the trigger. poor salome and mikoto or whatever bystander + kamisato and her annoyingharemb*tches. they are abandoned to die because he choose not to shoot.

No I completely disagree about the stress. Your earlier judgment of the importance of his characters to his plans seems reasonable though.

Touma was broken during NT 9. That completely traumatized him for life. That is exactly why he has broken down every time he has faced something of the magic god tier. Moreover, though he was afraid of his right arm getting cut off because if that happened then his dragon thing could have come out and killed innocent people and he was paranoid about that all volume. That in itself is more than reason enough for him to be stressed out. He was dually stressed about his right hand, about a Kihara being able to steal a right hand (which has bad implications for him too), a second school setting being messed with and he was already freaking out because his school friends were turning on him and were possibly in danger.

Sure, NT was terrible, but Touma didn't have time to stop and think or else he'd be crushed. He kept on just doing things. Now, he actually stops and thinks and talks to other people. He isn't doing all of this by himself. All of this is completely real. There's a big difference in terms of how bad it is. Not to mention, this is so terrible because Touma has already experience NT 9's events and he knows what can happen when things go really wrong.

As far as Touma not choosing to shoot... Really? You're complaining about that? Just stop. That's his personality. He has literally always been like that. The only exceptions to that happened in OT with Index before the recent plot events in which Touma was convinced by Othinus to act differently. I don't think it's reasonable to assume that Touma should have done otherwise. I don't want to discuss this topic further because there's no point. That's a staple of this series. If you don't like, then skip over that kind of stuff. I'm the sort of person who dislikes Fate series precisely because it has the exact opposite viewpoint to the Index viewpoint. Thankfully, Kamachi has the view that I prefer, and so I like it...

[UsagiTenpura]

Yeah not much question that anyone who actually read NT14 with the conversation with Othinus would understand why Touma hesitated to shoot Yuiitsu in NT15.

Beside NT9 is not a reason not to stress now. The power of a magic god made him go through hell. World Rejecter basically destroyed an entire group of magic gods as if they were ants. What this represents to Touma is beyond freaky.

Also I may not remember this part well, but I thought the plan in WW3 in consideration with Touma was to retrieve him if possible, but if he became hostile to still get him back at any means and put him on that machine that kept Kakine alive (forgot the name) that I think was made by Heaven Canceller. Fairly certain "Imagine Breaker", that is the right arm of Kamijou Touma, is vital to Aleister's plans.

[entei08]

Aleister definitely expects more than IB, otherwise he would not bring up the Cleanse god and Purify demon thing at the very end when he strikes Fiamma down. Saying he wants to off Touma at the end of WW3 is just absurd.

Dying a million times at least has the salvation that Othinus can fix stuff up at the end no matter who wins. Kihara + WR cannot repair anything but go on endless destruction, there was no understanding of her goals. It doesn't mean Touma will no longer have other worries just because "I dealt with worse (this is very debatable) shit lol".

[LevelSeven]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Yeah not much question that anyone who actually read NT14 with the conversation with Othinus would understand why Touma hesitated to shoot Yuiitsu in NT15.

even if a certain action is explained, that doesnt mean that it is ok or that people cant critizise it

Beside NT9 is not a reason not to stress now. The power of a magic god made him go through hell. World Rejecter basically destroyed an entire group of magic gods as if they were ants. What this represents to Touma is beyond freaky.

he seemed pretty meh while WR was in kamisato :/
and i dont think people say that touma cant be stressed, but that he wont break, that is different

Also I may not remember this part well, but I thought the plan in WW3 in consideration with Touma was to retrieve him if possible, but if he became hostile to still get him back at any means and put him on that machine that kept Kakine alive (forgot the name) that I think was made by Heaven Canceller. Fairly certain "Imagine Breaker", that is the right arm of Kamijou Touma, is vital to Aleister's plans.

yeah, i thought this too,
and to be honest, since NT7 i wonder about toumas importance, rensa proved that IB+hidden stuffs can be transferred to someone else as long as they manage to get the "certain something" that made IB/IT chose touma...
so, logically speaking, a exact (breinwashed and controlled by aleister)clone of touma should get IB/IT directly exspecially after the original was killed

Originally Posted by dniv

Touma was broken during NT 9.

he was down...a single pep-talk from Will and he was back again, this isnt being broken, otherwise i would be broken too everytime i feel down and have no interest in life and anything

[DragonXX]

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

even if a certain action is explained, that doesnt mean that it is ok or that people cant critizise it

he seemed pretty meh while WR was in kamisato :/
and i dont think people say that touma cant be stressed, but that he wont break, that is different

yeah, i thought this too,
and to be honest, since NT7 i wonder about toumas importance, rensa proved that IB+hidden stuffs can be transferred to someone else as long as they manage to get the "certain something" that made IB/IT chose touma...
so, logically speaking, a exact (breinwashed and controlled by aleister)clone of touma should get IB/IT directly exspecially after the original was killed



he was down...a single pep-talk from Will and he was back again, this isnt being broken, otherwise i would be broken too everytime i feel down and have no interest in life and anything

No the reason why IB couldn't be took is because Yuuistu had to use Supernarteral things to steal WR which would of bet destory as soon as it touch IB and we still don't know enough about IT to tell if it can be took by anyone.

[LevelSeven]

Originally Posted by DragonXX

No the reason why IB couldn't be took is because Yuuistu had to use Supernarteral things to steal WR which would of bet destory as soon as it touch IB and we still don't know enough about IT to tell if it can be took by anyone.

rensa took IB/IT for a small moment, and since her ability is to adjust her body in some ways in order to recreate other esper abilitys that means that IB/IT can be used by touma because his body is in some way the most compatible one,

so if aleister creates a clone and kills touma via normal-looking-student-walking-besdies-him-suddenly-stabbing-his-neck, than IB/IT should switch the host immediatly, they will even go to a lifeless object if it is the only thing in existence (like othinus said in NT9)

[Last_Aeon]

It is mention, however, that Touma's right hand will be 'the right hand' only if it is attached to Touma.

[LevelSeven]

^and that isnt wrong, it is simply that aleister would make another “right arm of touma“, as NT7 showed, the “right arm“ means not that it needs to be attached touma-touma but if all necessary parts are fulfilled “the right arm“ can be attached to anyone (look at rensa), and clone-touma would fit even better

[DragonXX]

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

^and that isnt wrong, it is simply that aleister would make another “right arm of touma“, as NT7 showed, the “right arm“ means not that it needs to be attached touma-touma but if all necessary parts are fulfilled “the right arm“ can be attached to anyone (look at rensa), and clone-touma would fit even better

No Rensa right hand destory itself as soon as she change her body but to what I have see the reason IB and IT is in Touma is because of who he is and we know that clones are never the same, the Mikoto clones show this.

The biggest problem is we don't know enough about IT to tell what IT is.

I do think there are ways for Touma to lose IB but it will by making him change the person he is but the price would most likey make IT more powerful because to what I have see in the book NT13 and 14 and the more negitive Touma feel toward something the stronger IT beccome. There also two other thing that I have seen which IT and that is the more powerful the supernarterl change to the World the Stronger IT get because the one that was going to hit Fiamma seen more powerful then the one that attack Othunis and there also the thing which Touma vs Othuins in NT9 which Touma breaking two finger destorying Othuins weapon Touma felt like he could win against Othuins after that which I believe was an overpower IT do to the World being destory.From what we have see of IT in AC it take on a form and not just a huge power and that IT become more powerful the greaterr the World is change which is most likey why one Dragon Head came out in the fight which Vol 2 enemy and Eight came out against Mikoto LVL6 Shift and the Unknown Sphee thing she make.

I think one of the main reason why NT15 show that WR could be stole was to show that there most likey away to steal IB and IT but I don't think that will happen until need the end of Index.

We can also guess that IB will alway be around as long as there something because at the end of NT9 which Touma dieing IB was going to Othuins the last thing around.

But in the end I don't think a clone of Touma could ever take IB and IT because it would not be like Touma, like the Mikoto Sisters are nothing like Mikoto.

Yuuistu get WR by tricking WR which the St Germain Virus but also because Kamisato did not want WR in the first place and now most likey because Kamisato want WR he could take it back and not lose it again, that why Crowley still seen Kamisato of someone who have to die even through he does not have his power anymore. I want to know what Yuuistu learn about WR after getting it beside the fact that you could have another power beside WR at the same time unlike IB which you can't have Magic or ESP power.

Also I think Crowley is going to get WR because how supid what he is doing now in NT15 but I don't think WR will kill him because of the fact he can be in two places at once which will most likey Mind Break the other Chim who is still most likey in his tube and be gone for a period of time in the LN so we can see the Pure Chaos that would happen in AC and the World which him gone and this time he doesn't have his dog to keep contarl well he gone.

One reason this would happen is the forshadowing of NT13 about there being peace because of someone ruling the Darkness of the World is keeping the world at peace and it may even lead to Accel having to take contarl of the Dark Side of AC do to no one ruling the Dark Side of AC because Aweiss wouldn't do it because it would be more fun to see how things turn out which out a leader of AC Darkside.

Also I am happy that a Kihara is Touma enemy this time around because they are like at the top of the Science Side in understanding Science like Magic Gods are the top of the Magic Side because we could get an understanding of what IB is to the science side like IB is a point to return to if magic change the world to must for the Magic Side but don't know would IB is to the Science Side.

Also we know that if you combine knowledge from more then one side you start to really understand what IB and IT is like, Terra and Fiamma who combine knowledge from the Divine and Magic and that Othuins said that Kihara Kagun who combine knowledge from Magic and science would have a better understanding then her.

[Last_Aeon]

Maybe Touma's right hand is nothing but IT's prison

[UsagiTenpura]

Like DragonXX says, I believe that Touma's personality is what allows him to have imagine breaker. Perhaps a better word would be his personal reality.

I also believe that IB being a side effect of the container of IT is quite likely.
However I think there's also a deeper symbolism to it that is pertinent to the story. In NT2 Birdway explained how humanity could essentially be viewed as the "culture of the right hand" making me believe there is a sort of link between the "symbol of human culture" and the various right hand powers, including Touma's.

[Tiken]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Like DragonXX says, I believe that Touma's personality is what allows him to have imagine breaker. Perhaps a better word would be his personal reality.

I also believe that IB being a side effect of the container of IT is quite likely.
However I think there's also a deeper symbolism to it that is pertinent to the story. In NT2 Birdway explained how humanity could essentially be viewed as the "culture of the right hand" making me believe there is a sort of link between the "symbol of human culture" and the various right hand powers, including Touma's.

It might be a combination of a few things, but I'd lean more towards Instead of having a certain personal reality as the condition to wield, it probably has more to do with an unbreakable philosophy or an absolute identity. One quote that definitely defines Touma as a person is "the only thing needed for evil to prevail over good is for good men to do nothing." (Not exact quote, too lazy to google it.)

[Last_Aeon]

December 25th is the birth of Jesus. So maybe in this story, the opposing axis will be born on that date.

[LevelSeven]

Originally Posted by DragonXX

No Rensa right hand destory itself as soon as she change her body but to what I have see the reason IB and IT is in Touma is because of who he is and we know that clones are never the same, the Mikoto clones show this.

unfortunatly that got contradiction two times already,
the first time was with rensa, she showed that IB/IT goes to anyone to meets thecorrect requirements and this on its own,
it was simply that the other parts of her body hadnt been changed too in order to compensate for hosting IB/IT...
andthe second time was with othinus in NT9, she herself already said that if touma dies in the black void and nothing except a can is present than IB/IT will switch to that object...

actually, ollerus said something similar, IB was in objects several times throughout history...

all in all, it doesnt seem likehis personality was ever the deciding factor...

and therefore a clone of him should work,

BTW, the sisters and mikoto are identical, they are clones down to the genes, the different exists in their powers which dont rely on the body, afterall they are PRs, that means it is more of a matter of the mind than the body
but IB/IT is a external power, it stays the same no matter what kind of host it has, a clone wouldnt be any different as host than the original

[Chosen_Hero]

^IT works because Touma is Touma, no one else (not even a clone) will ever make it work the exact same way, this has already been said many time in the series.