Sword Art Online - Episode 13 Discussion / Poll

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by aohige

Dude, that's like calling PSO an MMO.

Guild Wars and PSO are direct descendent of Diablo. They are MORPGs.
The MMO-like element only comes into play in the outlets (towns, etc) and even then it's fragmented into servers individually.

Due to not understanding the difference between MMO and MO, many game sites and magazines will lump them all into MMO, but trust me, they are NOT.

And no, don't lump me with "Oh he just knows WoW" crowd, I've probably have been playing various MOs and MMOs since most of the people here have been alive.

As far as WoW goes, it's basically a EQ clone, like most of the MMO genre.
What WoW achieved in that category is building broad clientele by casual focus, focus on intuitive GUI, and introduction of element of instances, burrowed from their other successful MO franchise, Diablo.

I'm not lumping you as a WoW only player as I don't know you xD

I was using GW1 as an example of game design with my focus on keeping players interested for a long period of them.

I could have used an author writing a long series of books (WoT) as an example, but the relevancy is much more of a stretch.

The point I was trying to make was, lvl 74+ boss room makes sense to me, as it is challenging (w/o real death ofc), especially after playing a game (any type of game) for over 2 years!

*EDIT*
Also your point about DOA and solong the game... Soloing with heroes and henches is a totally different game, they have superb reflexes and as long as you design your team right it was much easier then playing with people, especially a PUG.

There was plenty of high end content outside of DOA that was challenging, but my point was then you needed to know the tricks to beat them. Ofc if you look it up on GW wiki it would be easy. Working it out on your own I think is where the challenge and fun is.

[aohige]

Well, the fact no one has actually beat the game after 2 years kinda put it in unique spot.
No need for additional content!

I may have overshot the estimate of MMO life-time since it hasn't been even 20 years since the birth of UO.

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by aohige

Well, the fact no one has actually beat the game after 2 years kinda put it in unique spot.
No need for additional content!

But my point is what if the game is designed for more then 2 years of play. They can roughly work out the amount of grind a player needs to get to a certain level and the level and gears need to beat a certain boss.

So lets say the game designer of lvl 74+ has in their brief that players should have been playing for at least 1.5 years. Would a good designer just chuck out the same old thing with a different skin and more HP?

[aohige]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

But my point is what if the game is designed for more then 2 years of play. They can roughly work out the amount of grind a player needs to get to a certain level and the level and gears need to beat a certain boss.

So lets say the game designer of lvl 74+ has in their brief that players should have been playing for at least 1.5 years. Would a good designer just chuck out the same old thing with a different skin and more HP?

Well.

In a REAL world, you can't trap your customers in the game and force them to play, so if you don't add new content within 2 year time frame, even if there were unfinished progress in the game, a lot of players will simply bore and leave.

Exception being games with competitive addictiveness such as certain RTS *cough Star Craft* and certain FPS *cough CS*.
Those are more akin to immortality of chess.

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by aohige

Well.

In a REAL world, you can't trap your customers in the game and force them to play, so if you don't add new content within 2 year time frame, even if there were unfinished progress in the game, a lot of players will simply bore and leave.

Exception being games with conpetitive addictiveness such as certain RTS *cough Star Craft* and certain FPS *cough CS*.

Now that is very true xD especially with a good deal of very expensive games being able to be completed in a weekend!

I wonder actually if game content is being added on the fly by Cardinal? That would be a twist, Cardinal is bored and wants the game over with and starts making more and more twisted traps. In that sense it would be twisted as the content would be designed with the death factor in mind!

[ronelm2000]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

Now that is very true xD especially with a good deal of very expensive games being able to be completed in a weekend!

I wonder actually if game content is being added on the fly by Cardinal? That would be a twist, Cardinal is bored and wants the game over with and starts making more and more twisted traps. In that sense it would be twisted as the content would be designed with the death factor in mind!

I want to say yes, absolutely, but unfortunately I can't detail anything without the appropriate Cardinal-related spoilers... which are really not, actually. They just happen to be snuck in the later volumes of SAO.

Anyway, there are a couple of reasons why SAO is deemed with a very very high replay value.

(1) It's been said that there are an unlimited number of skills. And Kayaba's right! From <<Sewing>>, to <<Maces>>, to <<Cooking>>, to <<Woodcutting>>, to <<Musical Instruments>> ... to <<Stalking>>... I mean <<Tracking>>. Who knows if Cardinal's creating EVEN MORE skills out of nowhere.

(2) Cardinal is responsible for every NPC on SAO, and thus is able to coordinate with other NPCs and gives each player different kinds of routes of sorts in a campaign style mission. (This is theoretical, of course!) I wouldn't be surprised if quests there were voice-incurred... so to get to the Quest you're looking, you have to find the right words for it, not just say "No" to every scene in Dora the Explorer and still moving along fine without you.

(3) To explore upon each and every build in SAO will take 5 years minimum.

So far, we've seen the following builds:
(1) 1-H Curved Sword AGI / Samurai Build (but Klein is special so...)
Basically, with the use of a fast katana and light equipment, Klein is easily able to dodge while still hitting the opponent. However, parrying is obviously a no no.

(2) Leather-1-HSword AGI Build (Kirito's a good example)
There are two sub-types: the shield+sword and rapier. We all know Kirito doesn't belong in these categories, so assume Kirito doesn't have Dual Blades for now. Merely using leather equipment avoids any need of a <<Light Equipment Skill>> (which is usually required to equip the better light armor... I think?). However, we have no idea if there's a <<Leather Equipment Skill>>. However, I doubt it, simply because all leather suits are suited to be equippable by anyone, IMO.

A shield + sword build would be essentially the same, only having a Skill Slot for proably a <<One-Handed Shield>>. Allows for quick slash, defend, and parry. But, I bet they don't have the HP of a Tank.

(3) 2-HS STR Build
Super slow, yet super painful. Usually a tank as well, and equipped with lots of armor. If you use a 2-HS, then awesome, you have 1 large weapon to parry with as well.

(4) Paladin STR Build (think Heathcliff)
Like (3), but having a shield. They're the BOSS of Tanks, IMO. They probably equip heavy armor as well, enough to defend even without a shield, and STR, makes them a formidable opponent against bosses, suited for absorbing the dmg.

(5) Axe Balanced Build (I'm thinking Agil)
Using a 2-H Axe, you can still parry, although the length is... ugh. But, I think that Axe builds have more power control than 2-H users. Can easily switch to being a wood-cutter too.

(6) Light AGI Build (I'm thinking Scilica / Asuna)
Using a speed-based weapon such as Rapier or Dagger, it will be piece of cake to dodge anyyyything while still providing a decent attack. For daggers, however, parrying is out of the question, so they use Acrobatics instead.

[Krono]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

*EDIT*
Also what is the largest number of players we have seen in a boss room so far? The scout party was 10, how much was in the current group did anyone count? So far I would say the numbers feel more like an instance then a huge raid.

Can't check at the moment, but from the short stories/light novels:

Spoiler for Light Novel Information:

A raid group in Aincrad is 48 people - 8 parties of 6. The first boss fight had 44 people. The 75th has roughly 32.

[Spectacular_Insanity]

Originally Posted by aohige

Well.

In a REAL world, you can't trap your customers in the game and force them to play, so if you don't add new content within 2 year time frame, even if there were unfinished progress in the game, a lot of players will simply bore and leave.

Not to mention with no respawns and only one life to live, players go slower and are far more cautious than they would be in a normal setting.

If there were respawns in SAO, they probably would have beaten the game in less than a year.

Originally Posted by ronelm2000

I want to say yes, absolutely, but unfortunately I can't detail anything without the appropriate Cardinal-related spoilers... which are really not, actually. They just happen to be snuck in the later volumes of SAO.

Anyway, there are a couple of reasons why SAO is deemed with a very very high replay value.

(1) It's been said that there are an unlimited number of skills. And Kayaba's right! From <<Sewing>>, to <<Maces>>, to <<Cooking>>, to <<Woodcutting>>, to <<Musical Instruments>> ... to <<Stalking>>... I mean <<Tracking>>. Who knows if Cardinal's creating EVEN MORE skills out of nowhere.

(2) Cardinal is responsible for every NPC on SAO, and thus is able to coordinate with other NPCs and gives each player different kinds of routes of sorts in a campaign style mission. (This is theoretical, of course!) I wouldn't be surprised if quests there were voice-incurred... so to get to the Quest you're looking, you have to find the right words for it, not just say "No" to every scene in Dora the Explorer and still moving along fine without you.

(3) To explore upon each and every build in SAO will take 5 years minimum.

So far, we've seen the following builds:
(1) 1-H Curved Sword AGI / Samurai Build (but Klein is special so...)
Basically, with the use of a fast katana and light equipment, Klein is easily able to dodge while still hitting the opponent. However, parrying is obviously a no no.

(2) Leather-1-HSword AGI Build (Kirito's a good example)
There are two sub-types: the shield+sword and rapier. We all know Kirito doesn't belong in these categories, so assume Kirito doesn't have Dual Blades for now. Merely using leather equipment avoids any need of a <<Light Equipment Skill>> (which is usually required to equip the better light armor... I think?). However, we have no idea if there's a <<Leather Equipment Skill>>. However, I doubt it, simply because all leather suits are suited to be equippable by anyone, IMO.

A shield + sword build would be essentially the same, only having a Skill Slot for proably a <<One-Handed Shield>>. Allows for quick slash, defend, and parry. But, I bet they don't have the HP of a Tank.

(3) 2-HS STR Build
Super slow, yet super painful. Usually a tank as well, and equipped with lots of armor. If you use a 2-HS, then awesome, you have 1 large weapon to parry with as well.

(4) Paladin STR Build (think Heathcliff)
Like (3), but having a shield. They're the BOSS of Tanks, IMO. They probably equip heavy armor as well, enough to defend even without a shield, and STR, makes them a formidable opponent against bosses, suited for absorbing the dmg.

(5) Axe Balanced Build (I'm thinking Agil)
Using a 2-H Axe, you can still parry, although the length is... ugh. But, I think that Axe builds have more power control than 2-H users. Can easily switch to being a wood-cutter too.

(6) Light AGI Build (I'm thinking Scilica / Asuna)
Using a speed-based weapon such as Rapier or Dagger, it will be piece of cake to dodge anyyyything while still providing a decent attack. For daggers, however, parrying is out of the question, so they use Acrobatics instead.

Actually, a correction to Kirito's build and 2-H users:

Spoiler for Comparison to the novels:

Kirito actually is not a straight-up AGI build. According to the novels, he stacked his stats more on the STR side, with STR and AGI in a 2:1 ratio. Kirito's weapons stack STR and DUR, which add weight and attack power. Unlike Asuna, Kirito depends more on his Battle Healing skill since, while he can dodge a lot of attacks, he's not as fast as Asuna and can't dodge everything. He offsets this by forgoing metal armor entirely and using leather armor, which reduces his weight. He sacrifices the speed Asuna has for really hard-hitting attacks, a perfect solo build.

Asuna is an almost straight-up AGI build, and her weapons are largely Accuracy-based so she stacks criticals by attacking enemies' weak points. She's got a lightweight metal build, and almost everything is AGI based. This allows her to dodge or parry almost everything, but her attack power suffers as a result. She compensates by attacks very quickly and in rapid succession with her rapier, as we've seen many times.

2-H weapon users are NOT tanks in SAO, they are DPS. There has never been a group of 2-H users in the novels that were tasked with defending attacks from a boss. The tanks are solely the shield-users (that rotate for HoT pots), since 2-H weapons are slow and not good for "switching"... not to mention without shields they would be super squishy (and in SAO that would be suicidal). 2-H users are almost purely STR builds, because they need that stat to use their higher-tier weapons.

The other stuff is more-or-less right, but honestly the author never went into much detail on builds apart from Kirito and Asuna, so some of it is simply inference from what we know about Aincrad.

[Deltaray]

Since builds seems to be the talk thing right now.

Just recently I put some thought why most of the background characters had Shield + sword, explanation actually seems pretty easy, while they might not have perfect tank build like KoB group had, sword and shield seems to be safest and most fool proof choice of use, it's safe, and in game where you really die it seems logical.

[Vmem]

Hi All, new member here. Have really enjoyed the discussion of SAO and wanted to join

@ Grey Moon:
Since you brought up GW1, I have to say that SAO really reminded me of my attempts at getting the legendary survivor achievement (1.337 million exp without dying starting from character creation; for reference, you needed about 20k exp to hit the level cap in that game...). True, I was never in any danger in RL, but once you get past a certain point of the journey, it almost felt like the people in SAO. I remember repeatedly grinding in noobish areas, carefully scouting any unknown regions, and just playing everything as safely as possible. It took me two failed attempts to eventually get the achievement on my third try, took up the vast majority of my gaming time in about a year or so, and each of my two failed attempts felt a bit like dying... (I had gotten so used to seeing the avatar run around and complete quests etc etc.) Anyway, must like Kirito before he met Asuna, I spent my entire time soloing because it was much safer than partying up with someone who's either unreliable, or just impatient.

What I learned from the above experience is:
Now, if you guys looked at the numbers above, you realize that I would essentially have to hit the game's level cap 67 times. even with respawning, I eventually got bored of staying in noobish areas or just farming certain mobs. So I ventured on (hence how I failed twice XD; guess I would be dead if it was SAO), even went to the underworld for a brief spell . Even though this was nearly 10 years ago, reading and watching SAO STRONGLY reminded me of my survivor experience in GW1, those of you who've played hardcore on Diablo would probably feel the same way. as an early player who attempted this. I wonder if the Author of SAO has had similar experiences as he portrays these elements of SAO quiet well. if you only have one life in an MMO or MORPG, the only way to keep moving forward is to enjoy yourself. at some point you get bored of the endless farming and slow down, look around at your world and use the experience you've gained to help weaker players. Although it's perfectly understandable that Kirito's ideals of "the virtual world is a real world too" is a moral lesson born from the real world, I can't help but point out that such an experience can actually be felt even from playing a "lame 2D MMORPG".

[Zeriand]

Kirito does put in a huge amount of Strength in his skillset; I remember somewhere that the higher a sword's level and quality is, the heavier the sword becomes, and he's holding 2 of them too!

[Vmem]

Originally Posted by Deltaray

Since builds seems to be the talk thing right now.

Just recently I put some thought why most of the background characters had Shield + sword, explanation actually seems pretty easy, while they might not have perfect tank build like KoB group had, sword and shield seems to be safest and most fool proof choice of use, it's safe, and in game where you really die it seems logical.

Actually, I'm surprised that we haven't seen any archers yet, maybe there aren't any bows in the world of SAO? in addition, Spear + Shield is a far better combination than sword + shield for safety as a spear not only give you the added reach, but also allows you to attack while holding your shield up as it is a piercing weapon. You have to stop guarding in order to swing a sword.

As for personal preference, I would strongly favor Asuna's pure AGI build for survivability in SAO. even though she has light armor and probably low HP and vitality, the ability to REACT to enemy movements, and to dodge almost all attacks seems most valuable to me. your HP still gets chipped if you're tanking with a shield (maybe except heathcliff lol). in addition, you'll always be the TANK in a boss fight and possibly die if you're caught unprepared :P

[Ray]

Originally Posted by Vmem

Actually, I'm surprised that we haven't seen any archers yet, maybe there aren't any bows in the world of SAO?

There aren't any ranged weapons in SAO minus throwing knives.

[Vmem]

Originally Posted by Aphrah

There aren't any ranged weapons in SAO minus throwing knives.

hmm, interesting. the game mechanics game me an impression that it left a lot of room for player improvisation. if it already has the proper physics generators for throwing pins (the ones Kirito used to kill the ragout rabbit), then it shouldn't be too hard to turn spears into javalins, and eventually get some sort of bow-type weapon? besides, they seem to be able to use the player inventory any time, so if you have enough throwing skill, can't one attack a boss by having a row of tank-types defending a squad of javalin throwers? The Army could've done this back with gleameyes... skull reaper's a different story tho

Cardinal would probably kick my butt for coming up with these things -_-

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by Vmem

hmm, interesting. the game mechanics game me an impression that it left a lot of room for player improvisation. if it already has the proper physics generators for throwing pins (the ones Kirito used to kill the ragout rabbit), then it shouldn't be too hard to turn spears into javalins, and eventually get some sort of bow-type weapon? besides, they seem to be able to use the player inventory any time, so if you have enough throwing skill, can't one attack a boss by having a row of tank-types defending a squad of javalin throwers? The Army could've done this back with gleameyes... skull reaper's a different story tho

Cardinal would probably kick my butt for coming up with these things -_-

This would be possible, but you won't be able to use any technique with it, meaning it wouldn't do much damage.

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by Vmem

Hi All, new member here. Have really enjoyed the discussion of SAO and wanted to join

@ Grey Moon:
Since you brought up GW1, I have to say that SAO really reminded me of my attempts at getting the legendary survivor achievement (1.337 million exp without dying starting from character creation; for reference, you needed about 20k exp to hit the level cap in that game...). True, I was never in any danger in RL, but once you get past a certain point of the journey, it almost felt like the people in SAO. I remember repeatedly grinding in noobish areas, carefully scouting any unknown regions, and just playing everything as safely as possible. It took me two failed attempts to eventually get the achievement on my third try, took up the vast majority of my gaming time in about a year or so, and each of my two failed attempts felt a bit like dying... (I had gotten so used to seeing the avatar run around and complete quests etc etc.) Anyway, must like Kirito before he met Asuna, I spent my entire time soloing because it was much safer than partying up with someone who's either unreliable, or just impatient.

What I learned from the above experience is:
Now, if you guys looked at the numbers above, you realize that I would essentially have to hit the game's level cap 67 times. even with respawning, I eventually got bored of staying in noobish areas or just farming certain mobs. So I ventured on (hence how I failed twice XD; guess I would be dead if it was SAO), even went to the underworld for a brief spell . Even though this was nearly 10 years ago, reading and watching SAO STRONGLY reminded me of my survivor experience in GW1, those of you who've played hardcore on Diablo would probably feel the same way. as an early player who attempted this. I wonder if the Author of SAO has had similar experiences as he portrays these elements of SAO quiet well. if you only have one life in an MMO or MORPG, the only way to keep moving forward is to enjoy yourself. at some point you get bored of the endless farming and slow down, look around at your world and use the experience you've gained to help weaker players. Although it's perfectly understandable that Kirito's ideals of "the virtual world is a real world too" is a moral lesson born from the real world, I can't help but point out that such an experience can actually be felt even from playing a "lame 2D MMORPG".

LOL I went through the same experience too, really hard to get out of survivor mode when playing with other people as I would tend to just run at the first sign of danger.

If we think back to lvl 74, then Kirito basically said the same thing, that he leaves himself with a good margin of safety.

Now the thing that got me was as soon as people (randoms) found out I was playing survivor more often then not they would do something to get me killed

First I stopped telling them, then I stopped playing with them whilst trying to get survivor. I found it a challenge to play survivor with a pick up group, but towards the end it felt like I was just committing suicide and I didn't like to join a group and not tell people as it would affect my game play.

When EotN came out it was much much easier to get survivor because of the big exp rewards. So now I got 5 of them all the hard way, but I heard they made it so the survivor counter resets

[Vmem]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

If we think back to lvl 74, then Kirito basically said the same thing, that he leaves himself with a good margin of safety.

Well, to avoid turning this into GW1 talk...

I had totally forgotten about Kirito talking about his margin of safety. in fact, doesn't he contradict himself? it's understandable that he can get this "margin" on the earlier floors since he played beta and knew where everything was and how to train and level properly, but afterwards, everything's a big unknown. yet, he still joined the lead group often for boss clears and ventured into dungeons solo to train. I don't care how over leveled he might be, when you're playing with your real life on the line, doing a boss battle or trying to solo a dungeon cannot be called safe as unexpected things can happen. if you look at this more as a game rather than a work of literature/art, then it's easy to see that the doors of the boss room could've just as easily closed on Kirito and Asuna in the Gleemeyes room as it did with the lvl 75 boss room.

Bottom line, I think Kirito's a hardcore gamer at heart. he'll play conservatively due to the death game rules, but he'll still play and try to challenge himself occasionally.

[Oroboro]

There's a lot of exp and rare loot to be had from boss fights too, and up until recently, there was always the assumption that if things went south, you could just teleport out.

[Znail]

Originally Posted by Vmem

Well, to avoid turning this into GW1 talk...

I had totally forgotten about Kirito talking about his margin of safety. in fact, doesn't he contradict himself? it's understandable that he can get this "margin" on the earlier floors since he played beta and knew where everything was and how to train and level properly, but afterwards, everything's a big unknown. yet, he still joined the lead group often for boss clears and ventured into dungeons solo to train. I don't care how over leveled he might be, when you're playing with your real life on the line, doing a boss battle or trying to solo a dungeon cannot be called safe as unexpected things can happen. if you look at this more as a game rather than a work of literature/art, then it's easy to see that the doors of the boss room could've just as easily closed on Kirito and Asuna in the Gleemeyes room as it did with the lvl 75 boss room.

Bottom line, I think Kirito's a hardcore gamer at heart. he'll play conservatively due to the death game rules, but he'll still play and try to challenge himself occasionally.

By margin of safety so is he talking about how much higher level he is compared to the monsters he levels up on. He considered 20 levels above as safe when solo compared to 10 levels for a group. Now we saw that his level were 96, wich makes him 21 levels above the current floor and thus it's safe for him to solo at the front line.

[Anh_Minh]

Well, "safe".