JPOP: Decline and the silence of the fans.

[mdo7]

Originally Posted by ultimate_noob

^ I don't care if Kpop or Tpop or Cpop whatever pop you have in mind will get more attention than jpop. In fact I, and you , should feel happy that other asian countries' music industry is also flourishing.

Well I'm happy too. But I'm very concern about Japan because they're not sharing any similar ambition and the same passion like Korea did when it comes to globalizing their pop music (and other aspect of pop culture, like J-dramas for example). I mean Taiwan, Indonesia, and China are sharing a similar ambition to South Korea of wanting their pop music to go global. I mean you saw the video of Chinese pop idols/artists going to Korea and getting Korean-style idol training. I already put a link that Taiwan wants to replicate this on a worldwide scale. I don't see any J-idols going to Korea to get K-idol training, I don't see AKB48, FAKY, or Faeries going to Korea and getting additional training.

Look, Japan's birth rate is low but everyday babies are still being made here. If the low population can't sustain the market as you believe it will, then it is only natural for Japan's music industry to shrink and not because Japan is not taking the industry seriously(lol). This not a competition on who gets attention the most, who gets more money, who gets to hold an asian tour.

You're participating yourself in a contest between jpop vs kpop when in reality there is no contest at all.

The shrinking market in Japan will have to force Japan to export J-pop and J-music. As I said, because South Korea and the Hallyu was the first of it's kind for an Asian pop like K-pop to get mainstream popularity outside of Asia, other Asian countries will try to do this. Taiwan, China, Hong Kong, and Indonesia music market are smaller then Japan and Korea so to them they'll tried to do this. I think Taiwan is probably the next country after South Korea to launch it's own Hallyu Wave. I don't see Japan doing something like this.

I can say the same for the drama scene, after K-dramas got popular outside of Asia, Taiwan cashed in/ride on the drama fad. Japan never cashed in on the drama fad. On streaming sites like Viki, Hulu, Crunchyroll, and Dramafever I could find less then 10 J-dramas when I could find over 1,000+ K-dramas and 55+ Taiwanese dramas. There's other criticism about Japan's restriction of pop culture export:

-Japan aggressive takedown of fan-uploaded J-pop MVs on Youtube. It's very much easy for me to find fansub K-pop MV (the same for Chinese pop). Korea and Taiwan don't have that ridiculous draconian copyright laws and anti-piracy laws like Japan has. Japan's strict law on music is the reason why J-pop couldn't go global, that and Japan's xenophobic practice is the reason why I don't see AKB48 doing a Korean-language or Chinese-language album.

-Japanese labels don't upload full MV and not in HD on Youtube, Avex upload full PV most of the time but not always. Most of the J-pop MVs I've seen are short and not in HD. Johnny's Entertainment doesn't have a Youtube page. Meanwhile Korean labels and Taiwanese labels do make use of Youtube and a lot of them are getting more views then J-pop.

-On Itunes (in the US), it's hard for me to find J-pop. I could only find Kyary PAmyu Pamyu, Perfume, Morning Musume, Ayumi Hamasaki, Namie Amuro, Angela Aki, Koda Kumi, Passpor, and some other. But I can't find other J-pop music on Itunes, I can't even find AKB48 (other then one of their song from wreck-it Ralph soundtrack). I can find a lot of K-pop and Chinese/Taiwanese pop music on Itunes avaliable for me to download.

It may not be a competition now, but a few years from now there's going to be other emerging wave from other Asian countries that could rival South Korea's K-pop and Hallyu. Taiwan is very likely to do this, if Japan is not taking this seriously they'll fall behind. Japan will have no choice but to export J-pop and probably their idols will have go to Korea and get training so they can match with K-pop.

I like to add that I met several former J-pop fans that said they quit J-pop because they felt like Japan doesn't give a damn about their international fans, and Japan's ridiculous restriction on music export and how it's hard to find J-pop MV on Youtube.

I look at Japan and I'm concern J-pop may not have groups that could rival some K-pop one:

I can't find J-pop that could hold candle to BigBang:

I can't even find a group in Japan that could rival 2NE1:

I can't find a group like BigBang or 2NE1 in Japan. I don't know who in Japan could rival or hold candle against G-Dragon or T.O.P

There's other K-pop group that you can't find in J-pop:

Miss A (I can't find a group like this in Japan)

4minute (I can't find a group like this in Japan, Who's Japan answer to Hyuna)

BTS (no group like this exist in Japan)

B.A.P (this group I don't think you can't this in J-pop)

EXO (you can't find a J-pop group that can sing in Japanese and Chinese, where EXO can sing in Korean and Chinese)

As I said, 5 years from now I think Taiwan could make idol groups that could rival their K-pop equivalent. It wouldn't surprised me if future Taiwanese idols go to Korea and sing in Korean like how K-pop group sing in Chinese when they enter Chinese/Taiwanese market.

[asaqe]

And the cycle repeats itself from argument #1 but with another poster. No wonder Houkoholic decided to leave the topic.

[ultimate_noob]

Originally Posted by mdo7

stuff

They don't need to globalize or export because jpop has their customers who pay in their own country. And they have potential customers who are born in their own country everyday. Even if the population shrinks the people who will die will not be buying/downloading jpop anymore. They are too old. It is the new generation of Japanese that will buy.

Japan doesn't need to be rivals with korea and friends. Jpop doesn't need to replicate kpop "artists" either. They will try new, original and the usual jpop ways to try and appeal to new fans. Why can't you understand this if you're truly concerned about jpop? The way I see it, you're just posting kpop videos and going nostradamus about jpop dying and kpop achieving god status here to be honest.

[mdo7]

Originally Posted by ultimate_noob

They don't need to globalize or export because jpop has their customers who pay in their own country. And they have potential customers who are born in their own country everyday. Even if the population shrinks the people who will die will not be buying/downloading jpop anymore. They are too old. It is the new generation of Japanese that will buy.

Japan doesn't need to be rivals with korea and friends. Jpop doesn't need to replicate kpop "artists" either. They will try new, original and the usual jpop ways to try and appeal to new fans. Why can't you understand this if you're truly concerned about jpop? The way I see it, you're just posting kpop videos and going nostradamus about jpop dying and kpop achieving god status here to be honest.

Then explain why K-pop export their music outside of Asia and more K-pop concert outside of Asia are becoming more frequent? If you believe Japan is self-sustain, then why didn't Korea do the same you said it yourself, there's new customer in Japan, according to your logic, you could say the same for South Korea and Taiwan. Yet South Korea make use of international market, and Taiwan is trying to do the same, and Japan don't use international market to gain more profit.

Explain why US being the #1 music market still export their music around the world, when Japan being #2 doesn't export music outside of Japan??

Well the Chinese and Taiwanese are doing this sending their idols to Korea to get the same training, explain why. The birthrate in Japan is so low so there may not be enough new young people to keep the market in Japan alive. I'm worried Japan may fall behind because as I said, K-pop artists are more talented and they're getting more global recognition and there is no doubt that other Asian countries like Taiwan may try to replicate a similar wave. As I said, it's hard to find J-pop MVs on Youtube because Japanese labels don't embrace Youtube and I can't find a lot of J-pop on Itunes in the US the same way South Korea, Taiwan does it. Japan's strict anti-piracy and copyright laws make it hard for fansubbed J-pop MVs to be uploaded.

I mean what's wrong with J-pop being able to sing in Korean and Chinese, if K-pop artists can sing in Japanese and Chinese.

J-pop artists singing in Korean and Chinese=more talented and can be able to compete with K-pop.

As I said, Europe has more money then Japan and US combined according to a interview with SM Entertainment Deputy manager. I don't understand why J-pop doesn't target the European market.

[SkoolRumble4Ya]

I don't get how hard it is to accept that Japan doesn't want to globalize. Do you honestly think if they sing in a different language, they're gonna be popular all of a sudden. Jpop is already popular without resorting to those methods. I'm really sick of hearing about low birthrates about Japan. You act like they're gonna become extinct. You should stop bashing Jpop and just enjoy listening to Kpop.

[KiraYamatoFan]

Originally Posted by SkoolRumble4Ya

I don't get how hard it is to accept that Japan doesn't want to globalize. Do you honestly think if they sing in a different language, they're gonna be popular all of a sudden. Jpop is already popular without resorting to those methods.

Nevertheless, the debate is legitimate as to ask why Japan wouldn't want to globalize when we all know that globalizing means even more money in the pockets. I don't see how it would be bad to look at other prospects to get even more money, be it singing in a different language or aim somewhere else (I would prefer the second option). Furthermore, I don't think that one major failure in the 1980s (Pink Lady) that should keep the entire industry from knocking, knocking and knocking at the door until it's open. If not the US, then there's also Europe and I already mentioned weeks ago that Germany is a good place to start because of the largest Japanese expatriate community living there. And then, France and Britain would easily be next. With those 3 countries alone, J-Pop would have a pool of 210.82 million people and loads of extra cash without even needing the US.

Overall, I don't mind asking for a very civil debate without the kind of crap that has derailed the whole thread. And seriously, mdo7, I'm also getting fed up with the particular manner you're replying here. Just lose yourself somewhere and restrain yourself for a while for everyone's good if you don't want to get a ban.

[mdo7]

Originally Posted by SkoolRumble4Ya

I don't get how hard it is to accept that Japan doesn't want to globalize. Do you honestly think if they sing in a different language, they're gonna be popular all of a sudden. Jpop is already popular without resorting to those methods. I'm really sick of hearing about low birthrates about Japan. You act like they're gonna become extinct. You should stop bashing Jpop and just enjoy listening to Kpop.

Because other countries are going to try to replicate what South Korea did, Taiwan and other Asian countries (except Japan) are planning to replicate a wave like what South Korea did. If future Taiwanese/Chinese artists/idols sing in multiple languages (ie: Chinese, Japanese, Korean, and English) and have talent that can match with K-pop, and if Japan isn't taking this seriously, they'll fall behind and I don't want Japan to look inferior with their idols not being able to hold candle with K-pop and in the future, globalized C-pop/Taiwanese Pop when it comes multi-talent performances. So it's very important if J-pop can not only sing in Japanese and English but Korean and Chinese too.

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

Nevertheless, the debate is legitimate as to ask why Japan wouldn't want to globalize when we all know that globalizing means even more money in the pockets. I don't see how it would be bad to look at other prospects to get even more money, be it singing in a different language or aim somewhere else (I would prefer the second option). Furthermore, I don't think that one major failure in the 1980s (Pink Lady) that should keep the entire industry from knocking, knocking and knocking at the door until it's open. If not the US, then there's also Europe and I already mentioned weeks ago that Germany is a good place to start because of the largest Japanese expatriate community living there. And then, France and Britain would easily be next. With those 3 countries alone, J-Pop would have a pool of 210.82 million people and loads of extra cash without even needing the US.

Before they enter Europe, I want J-pop to try singing in Korean and Chinese so to show Asia that they can compete with K-pop and other Asian pop that are going to rival K-pop. I want to see J-pop topping not only Oricon, but also the Hanteo and GAON chart in South Korea, Chinese and Taiwanese music chart. I want to see J-pop trying to topped the Billboard World albums like several K-pop idols has done couple of times. If AKB48 can able to sing in Korean and Chinese (also include dancing that can match with K-pop girl group), then they can hold a candle to most K-pop girl group including SNSD. If EXILE can sing in Korean and Chinese and target those market just like Super Junior target Chinese and Japanese market, then they'll become Japan's "Super Junior". I like to see Morning Musume, Passpo, and Johnny's idols to try doing something like this too. That's what J-pop need to do, being able to sing in multiple languages like their Korean counterpart did. As I said, other non-Korean/non-Japanese artists and idols may try to sing in multiple languages to not only show they're talented, but to compete with and challenge K-pop. If a Taiwanese pop group can be able to sing in Chinese, Japanese, English, and Korean it shows that group can challenge K-pop. I want J-pop to be able to do this too. As I said a J-pop artists/idols that can sing in Korean and Chinese is more talented.

Overall, I don't mind asking for a very civil debate without the kind of crap that has derailed the whole thread. And seriously, mdo7, I'm also getting fed up with the particular manner you're replying here. Just lose yourself somewhere and restrain yourself for a while for everyone's good if you don't want to get a ban.

I assure you, I apologize if it looks like that. I'm trying my best not to lose myself but some people don't even show concern if K-pop or another Asian pop that is not J-pop are getting more competitive and sharing a similar ambition to compete with South Korea and getting global recognition and Japan falling behind, after seeing:

-South Korea getting more attention then Japan. K-pop gaining more fanbases then J-pop is getting.

-Billboard making a column for K-pop, and K-pop act topping Billboard World Album chart, and topping Itunes charts around the world. Also including topping various charts in South America.

-Other Asian countries like Taiwan, China, and Indonesia sending their idols/artists to South Korea to get K-idol style training and debuting back home indicating a similar ambition to start a wave like the Korean Wave. It doesn't help Taiwan is sharing a similar ambition to South Korea of wanting to replicate a wave.

-Other Asian countries like Taiwan, and China except Japan have started to export more dramas outside of Asia not only to cash in on the drama fad that K-drama caused, but to get people attention and attract people to listen to that countries pop music. It seem to be working for Taiwan.

When you see that Japan is not taking their neighbor competitiveness seriously, that is a serious concern. As a long time anime fan, I show concern that I don't want Japan to fall behind their neighbor. South Korea has already impressed the world with K-pop and K-culture, The Hallyu/Korean Wave is the first of it's kind from East Asia, I never seen anything like The Korean Wave from other part of Asia. There is no doubt of the Hallyu, other Asian countries may use that as a inspiration. Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Indonesia music market are too small to survive it's own so they may try to replicate a wave so people outside of Asia not only to bring in more revenue, but to attract these fans to go to those countries whic generate revenue from not only music, but tourism too. Japan can cash in on it if they can globalize J-pop, and have their idols sing in multiple languages to show they can compete and challenge K-pop. I agreed globalizing J-pop can help bring more money to Japan's music market and help raise their GDP which has been stagnating, that and Japan's tourism can benefit a lot if they globalize J-pop for international audiences.

EDIT 1: Also you know what would help J-pop, a big J-pop concert as big as K-pop concert (ie: SMTown Live World Tour, United Cube, and Music Bank World Tour). I found out there's going to be a big K-pop concert coming to LA and it's for free BTW and it'll have the biggest K-pop act like 2PM, SHINee, SISTAR, Girl's Day, and more artists will be announce soon. If Japan and their music industry make a big J-pop concert outside of Asia and have it fill with big name in J-pop like AKB48, EXILE, Hey! Say! JUMP, SCANDAL, and other you can think of. Then J-pop can be able to catch same wildfire like K-pop did. As a matter of fact, I think Taiwan may try this too in the future.

[ultimate_noob]

Originally Posted by mdo7

Then explain why K-pop export their music outside of Asia and more K-pop concert outside of Asia are becoming more frequent?

Explain why US being the #1 music market still export their music around the world, when Japan being #2 doesn't export music outside of Japan??


As I said, it's hard to find J-pop MVs on Youtube because Japanese labels don't embrace Youtube and I can't find a lot of J-pop on Itunes in the US the same way South Korea, Taiwan does it. Japan's strict anti-piracy and copyright laws make it hard for fansubbed J-pop MVs to be uploaded.


I mean what's wrong with J-pop being able to sing in Korean and Chinese, if K-pop artists can sing in Japanese and Chinese.

As I said, Europe has more money then Japan and US combined according to a interview with SM Entertainment Deputy manager. I don't understand why J-pop doesn't target the European market.

Because there aren't enough profits to be made in Korea. Kpop producers need to invest in other countries to recoup.

Japan exports music though. What are you talking about

There are some jpop MVs everywhere. You just don't know where to look because you are lazy or not a jpop fan.

There's nothing wrong with the Japanese singing in Korean/Chinese. It is just that jpop has nothing to gain in the Korea and Chinese markets. Why go to other countries where you can gain more profits for the same amount of effort in your own turf??

Your pathetic if you believe one single interview from one entertainment agency. And Europe consists of many countries....imagine the expenses...

[yindesu]

Originally Posted by mdo7

stuff

J-Pop in general isn't on iTunes USA because it's too easy to "reverse import" the music. Songs cost 250 yen on iTunes Japan. That's not a possible price tag on iTunes USA. Why do you think Aniplex USA's prices for physical products are set the way they are?

K-Pop doesn't face a similar problem with its home market prices.

You want to blow up the Japanese music industry's business practices when there's no guarantee your ideas would generate more revenue or more positive attention. In fact, I'm pretty sure many of your ideas would poison the Japanese music industry to death. This is what happens when you force someone to sing in a foreign language. I can do with less of this and I'm sure all the current customers of J-Pop would agree.

Besides, some Japanese record companies do export some of their music.

Originally Posted by mdo7

Explain why US being the #1 music market still export their music around the world, when Japan being #2 doesn't export music outside of Japan??

Maybe it's because when you don't export your music around the world, you become the #1 music market. Can we close this topic for blatant trolling?

[Daniel E.]

Thread will be closed and the topic will be reviewed. Please take this time to chill out a bit and please don't move the argument to a different thread, profile or social group.

EDIT:

Thread re-opened. Please try to keep things civil this time.

[mdo7]

Last week, Girls Generation and 2NE1 Korean comeback was widely anticipated in the US and around the world. I mean Fuse TV made it a big deal. That article was really popular for 3 days since it was posted up on Fuse TV.




Billboard made it a big deal too. Girls Generation's new album has already charted high in 11 countries and made it on the US Itunes top 5 album since it came out.





The same happen to 2NE1.

You don't see Kyary Pamyu Pamyu or AKB48 comeback getting this same level of attention in the US (and worldwide) like the same way 2NE1 and Girls Generation get. That's my concern for J-pop, that and other Asian countries except Japan is showing a similar ambition to replicate it's own hallyu wave. I don't see Japan sending their idols to Korea to get the K-idol traning nor Japan wanting to ride on the same success like K-pop is getting, I mean Taiwan, China, Indonesia, and Thailand are going to try to pull this off since Korea is becoming an inspiration to those other Asian countries except Japan.

Also I remember reading an article from Seoulbeats and this part got my attention when I read it:

Originally Posted by Seoulbeats

5. And for Japan and its music industry, what do you think it can learn from K-pop and the Hallyu wave?

Nicholas: For all the things that J-Pop does well, one thing they really cry out for is some sharp marketing. Surely being the original creator (and semi-successful exporter) of popular culture has got to count for something, as well as the years of added experience. My feeling is that J-pop right now is quite like the Galapagos of popular culture, evolved and self sustaining, with a little bit of inaccessible cool air about it. How about taking that, and spinning it into something that is an acquired taste, yet enjoyable once you get the hang of it? Judging from online buzz, there are many acts that have had a devoted following purely on word-of-mouth, so why not play on that slightly “underground” vibe.

Another thing that makes J-pop that little bit inaccessible is how so much online content gets walled off due to copyright or translation issues. Granted, there is the issue of getting paid and accurate translations (something which K-pop still works on half the time), but hey, open the gates and watch the fans come.

Jasper: As for what Japan can get out of Korea, I’d definitely agree with Nicholas and say marketing. While there’s no real need to since Japan’s large music industry can surely sustain itself, reaching out to foreign fans could potentially really help the genre. The effective ways K-pop management markets the genre allows their fans to feel more involved despite being so far away, and Japan could benefit from this as well.

Amy: Japan is completely miserable at spreading their music products outside of Japan. Like Jasper and Nicholas have mentioned, Japan has no need to do this, given that its own market can sustain its music industry extremely comfortably without outside help, but at a certain point, it starts to read like arrogance. This is a global age. It’s close-minded for Japanese music companies to shut out YouTube as aggressively as they have. It’s just unthinkable and extremely irritating for fans trying to get a better sense of Japan’s pop cultural products to be unable to find leads anywhere. It doesn’t help that merchandise coming out of Japan is ridiculously overpriced either, so it’s like Japan is actively trying to discourage anyone from gaining access to their pop culture, which is short-sighted.

I agreed with Amy when I read that part, I mean I don't see J-pop artists reaching out to their international fans (except Perfume and Kyary Pamyu Pamyu), I never seen a J-pop concert being as big as K-pop one (SMTown, United Cube, Music Bank World Tour, or that upcoming free big K-pop concert in LA that is happening in April). I never seen J-pop taking the other Asian market seriously like Korea did, the article from Aramatheydidn't about can J-pop replicate the same success like K-pop, I agreed with some of the comment made on the article:

If they want to replicate the success they need to start acknowledging the non Japanese fans
let us upload *expletive* on youtube, update your website JE, create a facebook for each group with the latest info
something I really love about YGE is that they have a youtube channel for their artists like 2NE1 and they also make eng subs for the fans...so you don't have to wait for another fan to do it
SME also uploads dance practice vids of their artists like SNSD

You are not allowed the take pics or record anything during JPOP concerts because they believe that the fans won't buy the DVDs
They don't know that those fancams actually help the artist...I bought DBSK and SUJU concerts DVDs because of the fancams

"How can Japanese artists pick up new fans if promotional videos are only available to people who already know about the artist in question?"

THIS. There is no way J-pop will make it big because of this. SM, YG, Cube and JYP are taking advantage of Youtube and have been for a while. It's only recently that some J-pop idols (Momusu, C-ute, AKB, etc.) have started using Youtube.
Frankly, Johnny-san needs to get more up to date.

Besides the economic benefit of trade, export, image boosting...Japan can also use a boost in tourism as well right now. The number of foreign visitors have declined dramatically and their campaign to promote tourism is not working.

There're lots of benefits to go international. The US is already the #1 music market in the world but are they content to just stay at home and relying on their domestic market? NO.

I love Jpop more than Kpop, but the thing is I have a little more respect for kpop. Regardless of Korea's attempt to earn more money by expanding, they do not shun international fans. Kpop allows international fans access to their media.

Japan on the other hand makes it near impossible to get anything legally. We can't join the fan club without jumping through hoops of fire. I'm not wanting or even expecting this huge American/international debut from any band in Japan. But really, have a little more respect for the international fans.

Japan should be fair to fans by allowing at least access to the media instead of keeping it under lock and key. They need a window for the international population to be exposed to Japan's music industry and then if they become a fan, allow them the SAME rights as Japanese fans have. That's all I want...just a little more fairness and consideration towards international fans. Is it too much to ask!??!?

I will never ever understand deleting pv's from youtube. If you don't like the video being leaked then create an official account. It makes no sense to spend money on a music video just so that no one can watch it. It is seriously annoying that I can almost never watch Japanese pv's about a week after it's been uploaded.

I know that I have been more into kpop and kdramas for about the past three years and there's a reason why.

As I said, Japan has brought it upon themselves for not taking the international market seriously.

[hyl]

Yet, is there even a point of discussing this hypothetical situation that Jpop would benefit from expanding towards the West?
Convincing (or atleast trying to) us would not help anything to improve this socalled "dillema" because we don't have any power to change anything about it.

Also the reasons why Japan should not try to expand it's audience seems just as valid to me, because if there were no risks involved then Japan would have already done that

[asaqe]

Originally Posted by hyl

Yet, is there even a point of discussing this hypothetical situation that Jpop would benefit from expanding towards the West?
Convincing (or atleast trying to) us would not help anything to improve this socalled "dillema" because we don't have any power to change anything about it.

Also the reasons why Japan should not try to expand it's audience seems just as valid to me, because if there were no risks involved then Japan would have already done that

Discorse is still discourse if it will make jpop look like CIA of music aka only known for their failures. Pointing out merits and good news internationally from jpop will at stem the bleedin. Otherwise this is simply another mouthpiece for mdo7 and proof jpops fans are silent defeatists

[Daniel E.]

Thread closed...... for good.