2011-03-08, 15:55 | Link #1581 |
I Miss NEET Life
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Formerly Iwakawa base and Chaldea. Now Teyvat, the Astral Express & the Outpost
Age: 44
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Which is exactly what I am saying. It's better to ignore him and stop giving him any credibility, which he have lost since the day he described Victor Hugo and other writers as tragic Kafkaian figures who died lonely and underappreciated.
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2011-03-08, 16:18 | Link #1582 | ||
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Join Date: Sep 2009
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btw, I am not referring to the stupid adults when I make my previous post. I am referring to Reinhard, who is supposed to be extremely smart. With Reinhard's resources, I can take out Yang Wenli very easily strategically/ politically. It is just plain stupid, under realistic logic, for Reinhard keep trying to gain an upper hand thru tactical means. I am not arguing whether LOGH is a good or bad show. But in terms of logic and plot holes, LOGH had some really big one which people like you conveniently overlook.
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2011-03-08, 17:20 | Link #1583 |
I kill you
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: In your brain
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Stop talking to whatever fan of roricon. He is basing his entire opinion from single blog which is stating 'madoka is not deep', without even watching it or knowing who Urobuchi really is.
Urobuchi and Shinbo the one who's placing all the screenplay, who are both known for giving entire focus on minor elements that people might not even care. Thus, everything has meanings (even Sayaka being mermaid is definitely intentional. Why random fish tail then?), even though it might be just a troll play.
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2011-03-08, 18:03 | Link #1586 | |
Crossdressing Menmatic
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Where you live... the question is, do you see me?
Age: 30
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Anyway, I decided to give that article a look and see what the commotion was about. I respect the critique (and respectfully disagree). I find some of his points compelling. The author seems pissed at the immediate flip-flop of the character's personalities. Some people would call that character development, he calls it character inconsistency. The following personality changes occur: Homura went from making Madoka sad to being sad in front of Madoka. Kyoko went from killing Sayaka to dying for Sayaka. Sayaka went from saving the innocent to killing the innocent. I admit I am biased; I like when those complete opposites happen suddenly, even without reason. For the reviewer, the sudden change in Homura's typically stern and serious personality into a sobbing, crumpled heap was too much of a character inconsistency to overlook. When I reconsider the scene, it would be more logical for Homura to give Madoka a stern rebuking. Until that point, Homura did not even so much as faze. So I understand what the author is saying. Kyoko's change is far less sudden, but perhaps still poorly conceived. You don't go from killing someone for two days and then befriending them the next. The very reason Kyoko and Sayaka were fighting was because Kyoko hated Sayaka's idealism. Suddenly, it is revealed that Kyoko actually loves those heroic stories, despite the tragic past exposition that was supposed to have turned Kyoko completely cynical. Even if Kyoko was hiding her adoration of Sayaka's ideals, I think the reviewer could have used more buildup and hints. Finally, there is Sayaka. Naturally, her personality flip is the most justified (because the show focuses on her downward spiral the most). There were hints that Sayaka was a little crazy, and that her idealism was slowly mounting into insanity. She yelled at Madoka. Sayaka was conflicted when Hitomi confronted her. And very conflicted when Hitomi and Kyousuke were spotted together. I think the reviewer is wrong here. Ultimately I understand the rant. I did not find the character inconsistencies bad enough to be noticeable, but upon further inspection, they exist. I appreciate the effort to go against popular opinion, and the reviewer's viewpoint is not that unreasonable. |
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2011-03-08, 18:22 | Link #1588 |
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My overall view is similar to Deconstructor's.
In particular, I felt that Kyoko's sudden 180 (in her approach towards Sayaka) probably could have been handled a fair bit better. Even now, I experience whiplash just thinking about it. Sayaka's descent into complete madness is a little hard for me to swallow, given how very emotionally well-adjusted and "normal" Sayaka came off in the first few episodes. I guess I would have preferred more of an "interim" stage there. In fairness, I suppose Gen may subscribe to The Joker's "One Bad Day" philosophy. Would help to explain Sayaka's maniacal laughter at the end of Episode 7. I disagree with Mystlord on Homura (I was relieved to see her show some softer emotions, so I welcomed her crying scene). I'm less sure on Madoka. With Madoka, a lot will depend on how her story ultimately ends. If she contracts with Kyubey within the next three episodes, when doing so earlier could have helped prevent Mami and Sayaka's deaths, then it will make her look worse, imo. On the other hand, if she doesn't contract with Kyubey, and finds a better way, then Madoka's overall approach will probably be soundly justified and vindicated. Madoka not changing much might be a big part of the theme of anime, actually, and if so, I'm obviously not going to fault Gen for keeping her largely static as a character. Mystlord's more direct critiques of Gen, Shinbo, the musical score, rtc... are a bit excessive. Overall, none of this is a "deal breaker" for me. This is still a very good anime. But I thought it might be interesting to delve into these critiques.
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2011-03-08, 18:30 | Link #1589 |
Banned
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Sayaka's characterization makes sense. She tried to do things the idealistic way, and it only left her as a horrific bastardization of nature while basically robbing her of everything she loved. She said "Screw it" to life, and had an established reason to do so. Maybe I'm being too partial because her characterization is reeeeeeeeally similar to how I wrote a certain character in a certain route in Terrible Things Happen to Akane, but Sayaka makes sense to me.
Kyoko's characterization also makes sense. Through witnessing Sayaka's downward spiral, she saw where her own life was heading and decided to change sides. She befriended Sayaka out of sympathy. Abruptly being forced to face your own mortality generally has a big effect on you. Sayaka and Kyoko are only nonsensical when you ignore the valid reasons they act the way they do. Homura is the only one who currently makes no sense, but I hate every aspect of her except for that one thing she did and will continue to think of her as the show's Mashiro until she explains things. Not much to say there. |
2011-03-08, 18:58 | Link #1590 | ||
(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻
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2. Kyoko realized her tragic past could have been MUCH worse. The Soul Gem revelation shook up her and Sayaka in a big way. When Sayaka started turning to "the dark side", Kyoko saw the same rejection of life that she herself went through and felt a kindred spirit. It's understandable that the time line is short between her appearance and her death, but think about the revelations she just went through. Soul Gems are literally your soul (remember she's from a religious family), and then she finds out that Soul Gems become Grief Seeds. So not only did her wish curse her family, crushing her reasons for becoming a Magical Girl in the first place, she has been condemning humans to death and feeding her despair to what used to be Magical Girls just like her. On top of that, knowing that you will either die or become a Witch...Sayaka was her perfect counterpart. 3. We don't know if Sayaka actually killed anyone. It is implied, but the first rule of anime is corpse or it didn't happen. But consider that in a matter of days she lost the reason for her wish, felt betrayed by her friend, found out she's basically a living corpse, realized her sense of justice and ideals were naive, QB screws with her mind by telling her that Madoka could bear some of the burden and lets Sayaka (who isn't a powerful MG) assume that Madoka is just being selfish, she lashes out at Madoka and basically feels she lost everything and has nothing left. It's a twelve episode series though...how much time is "perfect" for characters to flip flop? Is it the writing? I don't see people complaining about "filler" episodes that don't advance the plot in some way. In the context of the story, given the running time and what needs to be covered to progress the plot, these events are believable. Trying to hate the story because it jars your own personal desire to see events play out differently, and calling it inconsistent, especially when the story isn't even done yet, just seems presumptuous at best.
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2011-03-08, 19:02 | Link #1591 | |
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Again, it's not the changes that her and Kyoko underwent, it's how rapidly they underwent them. There was no real interim phase. There was no obvious moments of self-reflection that logically leads from one position to the diametrically opposed position. People rarely make big switches like that, and when they do, it usually takes time. In fairness, though, this might be an issue imposed by the time limitations that Gen had to deal with (i.e. 12 anime episodes). If this was your typical length visual novel, Gen probably would have been able to flesh these changes out a lot better. It might be interesting if Madoka Magica gets a sequel based on a Higurashi/Umineko format (i.e. Homura has to jump to a new timeline, and we watch these events unfold all over again, just a bit differently). Such a format would allow us to explore each character from multiple angles, adding to our understanding of them perhaps.
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2011-03-08, 19:11 | Link #1592 |
Banned
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Yes she did. That's what the whole being a Warrior of Justice thing was all about, before finding out about the whole having-your-soul-ripped-out-and-your-body-reduced-to-a-living-corpse deal and things just getting progressively worse from there.
In her mind, as long as Kamijou could play his violin, everything would be okay. And then everything turned out to be anything but okay. |
2011-03-08, 19:12 | Link #1593 |
Banned
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My, look at all the hate over me. If I am really a troll, I get to like all this attension you know. But in reality I just want to point out stuff because I am making a review about it and your replies give me feedback.
So ok, let's just say realism is not an issue at all here. Let's just say it is the internal logic of the series to have super energy coming out of girls that saves the universe. If the in-laws of the show were constant, then I would be more than willing to not mind it anymore. But the problem is, episode 9 pretty much "Bleached" its own laws by making random stuff that contradict everything that was explained before. So no, it is no longer an issue of realism and how LOGH is equally stupid. LOGH never contradicted its own in-laws as Madoka just did in episode 9, which is disappointing at the least. Here is a list of all the things the show trolled in the latest episode. 1. Both Mami and Kyoko said that familiars turn to witches and that some witches drop witch eggs. All I saw was Sayaka turning to a witch immediately, contradicting all we were told before. And where do soul gems go if not all witches have one? Where do the soul gems of dead magical girls go? Is their energy still able to be collected by QB? If not, 50% of the total energy is lost right there. 2. QB explained his plan to Madoka, when she didn't even ask for an explaination. That is clearly a very poor exposition of the mystery and even contradics QB's plan to make Madoka a magical girl. He lowered the chances of admiting to become one by explaining everything. 3. Kyoko blew up along with witch Sayaka when for all we know she could just defeat her and head to fight the big boss along with Homura, thus sparing Madoka from becoming a magical girl herself. She also became from worst enemy to Sayaka's best friend in, like, 10 seconds. Again, completely contradictory. 4. Hey Madoka, you don't even have a problem if you can wish anything. Wishes are a broken power and a great deus ex machina you know. Wish for all the witches in the world to die. You will never need to fight and the universe is instantly saved. You don't want to do it yourself? Find any other girl to wish it for you. Too cruel? Just wish for your friends to come back to life and everybody is happy again. It is so simple, really. There, the very core themes of the show are contradicted right here. If you call even them unimportant, then you belong to those who don't even mind how Kubo writes his stories. And this last part is indeed a troll XD. |
2011-03-08, 19:16 | Link #1594 | |
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I meant from the moment that Hitomi made her "I'm interested in Kamijo too" statement to Sayaka. And no, she didn't try to soldier through after that moment.
Mystlord is right, I think, that Sayaka doesn't really start to change her overall approach until then. Sayaka was quite resolute in what she said to Kyoko before then. And, look, to say "I can't hug him! I can't kiss him!" while you're currently hugging another person and crying on her shoulder... that's a bit much, isn't it? Quote:
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2011-03-08, 19:17 | Link #1595 | |
(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻
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People can and do crash quickly and crash hard. For example, you work your entire life to earn a position at your place of employment and you feel betrayed because someone else "took your spot". Many of us would just repress it and turn to bad habits like alcoholism. Some of us accept it and move on. Others buy a gun and lash out. Sayaka repressed it. She rejected everything after her ideals, hopes, and dreams appeared to be broken. But she was on a timer. If she wasn't a Magical Girl, she might have been saved before the gem broke. It doesn't matter how often you reach out to people who feel lost, they have to be ready to accept it. What is so tragic about her last line "I'm such a fool" is that she was ready, but her time was up.
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2011-03-08, 19:24 | Link #1597 | ||
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I don't think that Sayaka's ideals were simply "a barrier". I think that they were sincerely held beliefs and values for her. And given the personal strength she had shown before (which is what I meant by her "established characterization"), I think that she folded far too quickly. I mean, while Sayaka wasn't fearless, she wasn't a weak person either. She was quite willing to battle Kyoko to the death, after all, while knowing that she was the inexperienced underdog in that fight. Quote:
I disagree, though, that her idealism caused her downfall. If she had stuck to her idealism, maybe her downfall never happens.
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2011-03-08, 19:33 | Link #1598 | |||
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2011-03-08, 19:42 | Link #1599 | |
Banned
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Had she remained her usual plucky self, she may have realized she could still share a relationship with Kamijou and became more assertive of her feelings toward him. But what would a relationship actually be worth at that point? Barring a radical change in storytelling direction (which WOULD be lolrandom), idealism isn't going to reverse her zombified state. Idealism isn't going to win her back any semblance of a normal life she could actually spend with Kamijou. Idealism isn't going to change the fact she has to spend the rest of her existence fighting Witches. |
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2011-03-08, 19:42 | Link #1600 | |
(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻
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In her despair, she rejects Madoka, laments her "missed" opportunity to confess to her love, beats the hell out of some Witches but her rejection of the Magical Girl system means she can't refresh her Soul Gem, rejects Homura's offer to help and then meets two jackasses on the train who make her wonder what the hell she is even fighting for in the first place. Her sense of justice, her ideals, her hopes, her dreams, her friends, her love, all of it she felt betrayed by. In her lamenting and despair she realizes how stupid she was, but it's too late. Her rigid outlook on life was her downfall. Wha? I thought this series was all just some illogical, inconsistent writing done by some hackjob past his prime?
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despair, hope, madoka magica, magical girl, urobuchi gen |
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