Nanoha Manga Discussion

[Ottocycle]

The age-old question. LOL

Who's stronger? Nanoha or Fate? Too bad even if it's canon, the ones providing the answers are canon fanboys/girls too.

[Aaron008R]

Can we bother you to give us the gist?

[Ottocycle]

Forwards wonder which of their captains is stronger.
Subaru/Erio go 4chan fanboy/girl on each other.
Rational Tia wonders about the lieutenants + Hayate's strength
Alto + Subaru turn it into a variety show.
Signum is indifferent about it all towards Griffiths+Shari+Lucino
More Vivio family fluff
Hayate admits she's weak upon The question from Tia. She says she just stands there and fires and is unable to do anything while in high speed flight. Hence she took the Mixed rank instead of the Air Combat ranks.

Edit: It'll probably be at least a month before we translate this chapter. So don't hold your collective breaths

[Kha]

Originally Posted by Icarus

StrikerS manga ch7 is now up and ready for download. Bittorrent file link here.
Thanks to selkirk and humbug23 for translating and QC work. ^_^
I'm seeding this and ch6 still, so please help when you can to seed.

As you can see from my sig, we're looking for translators. If you have the skills and the time, let us know. No speed-TLers please! We're looking for accuracy here. ^_-

DLing now... Say anyone know if chaps 1-4 was archived somewhere? I just dug through my HDD and found only 5-6, and soon 7.

Originally Posted by humbug23

Hayate admits she's weak upon The question from Tia. She says she just stands there and fires and is unable to do anything while in high speed flight. Hence she took the Mixed rank instead of the Air Combat ranks.

This makes Riot 6's formation seem like is was ancient planning, probably right from the start when Hayate and the Wolkies first met Carim.

I say this because to me Hayate seems to want to bump her rank up as far as possible to take a command position ASAP. Has my statement been verified anywhere? Just thought that this piece of info would help me structure my OC timeline better.

[Aaron008R]

Thanks for the translation, humbug!

Originally Posted by humbug23

Forwards wonder which of their captains is stronger.

I didn't expect this.

Subaru/Erio go 4chan fanboy/girl on each other.

Typical.

Rational Tia wonders about the lieutenants + Hayate's strength

It seems Tea is the closest forward to Hayate.

Alto + Subaru turn it into a variety show.

Signum is indifferent about it all towards Griffiths+Shari+Lucino

As expected.

More Vivio family fluff

That looked cute. At least it wasn't too extended.

Hayate admits she's weak upon The question from Tia. She says she just stands there and fires and is unable to do anything while in high speed flight. Hence she took the Mixed rank instead of the Air Combat ranks.

Ouch!
Ahh, well. Not being good on one-on-one doesn't immediately translate to incompetence in combat in general. Besides, if she gets shot down, the Wolkies can say goodbye as well so it makes sense. This'll be of use in the OC thread.

Edit: It'll probably be at least a month before we translate this chapter. So don't hold your collective breaths

We can wait. It's certainly better than having none at all!

[Icarus]

Yeah, sorry for the slowness guys, it's primarily my fault as I'm swamped with work at the moment. Chapter 8 is undergoing final QC, and I've almost finished v1 of Chapter 9 which should be going into proofreading and QC sometime tomorrow (day off work, so will be spending it wrapping up the editing backlog).

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Kha

This makes Riot 6's formation seem like is was ancient planning, probably right from the start when Hayate and the Wolkies first met Carim.

I say this because to me Hayate seems to want to bump her rank up as far as possible to take a command position ASAP. Has my statement been verified anywhere? Just thought that this piece of info would help me structure my OC timeline better.

Well, we know RF6 had been in the planning for at least four years, since Hayate invites Nanoha and Fate the day after the airport incident, four years before RF 6 becomes operational.

Originally Posted by Kha

DLing now... Say anyone know if chaps 1-4 was archived somewhere? I just dug through my HDD and found only 5-6, and soon 7.

*stuffs his random group translated 1-4 in a rar* Here you go.

Originally Posted by Icarus

Yeah, sorry for the slowness guys, it's primarily my fault as I'm swamped with work at the moment. Chapter 8 is undergoing final QC, and I've almost finished v1 of Chapter 9 which should be going into proofreading and QC sometime tomorrow (day off work, so will be spending it wrapping up the editing backlog).

Take your time, no rush here.

*remembers several rushed translations*

*shudders*

Nope, no rush at all.

[Liingo]

@ Icarus No need to apologise about any delays. Heck, if it wasn't for you, Selkirk and Humbug, we wouldn't have had translations of chapter 5 onwards.

We'll be waiting patiently for the release, now worries

I'd help out if I could, but not enough Japanese learnt to be able to do much.

Here's cookies for all of the team for the work that you've been doing!
*hands out cookies*

[Ottocycle]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Take your time, no rush here.

*remembers several rushed translations*

*shudders*

Nope, no rush at all.

Posts like these make me less conflicted when I decide to fail a chapter's QC for the 7th time and above...Icarus, selkirk, *hint hint*



EDIT: Oh and Liingo, don't forget ikka, erm I mean Icarisain too

[Icarus]

Originally Posted by humbug23

Posts like these make me less conflicted when I decide to fail a chapter's QC for the 7th time and above...Icarus, selkirk, *hint hint*



EDIT: Oh and Liingo, don't forget ikka, erm I mean Icarisain too

Yeah, well, you know me. I'd rather release something that everyone in the group is 100% happy with, than release something with a billion glaring errors.
BACKLOG CLEARED! (Finally.) Time to play Raiden Fighters Jet.

Also, just ordered new Megami this afternoon, so it should arrive by next week-ish. I have my eyes on flsnow.net for the latest raws, which I'll be nabbing and cleaning ASAP when they hit.

Also, if there are going to be six chapters per tankoubon, that would mean there's another two chapters to go. One's most likely an epilogue, so that leaves one more chapter to wrap up loose ends. Something for the bad guys, perhaps?

EDIT: Gah! I can't count properly after a heavy session of Photoshop. >_<
Seven chapters per volume, so there's another 4 possible. What can they do with those four, I wonder, aside from one being an epilogue?

[Frankenstein's Clare]

Okay, I guess I'm coming in a little late for chapter 7, but Hayate wearing her coat over-the-shoulders, no arms in the sleeves, reminds me of Balalaika and scares me very much.

Her smiling just makes it worse.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by LoweGear

So, what is going on here?

Spoiler for Latest manga scans:

Uh, did you take them yourself? If yes, would you mind putting a couple more inches of distance b/w the camera and the page so you can get the whole thing into sight?

Thanks in advance.

Originally Posted by Aaron008R

I didn't expect this.

It is way overdue, in fact.

Typical.

It seems Tea is the closest forward to Hayate.

That's shown in the canon show too. There's something nice going on there, except they shafted it for more Vivio.

Ouch!
Ahh, well. Not being good on one-on-one doesn't immediately translate to incompetence in combat in general. Besides, if she gets shot down, the Wolkies can say goodbye as well so it makes sense. This'll be of use in the OC thread.

Well, 7Arcs never misses a chance to shaft Hayate to the point of character assassination

At least now I know where Chaos' "Caro" comment came from. Sorry for doubting you back there, Chaos

Spoiler for OK, OK, I'd put the rant in a spoiler:

The shafting part isn't, by the way, that she's weak in close combat. It is clear they are making Nanoha the Infantry and Fate the Cavalry, so someone has to hold up the 3rd end of the Combined Arms Triangle. And Artillery is God of War after all, so it is hardly a bad position.

Nor is it even the part where Enormous Magical Power contradicts Rapid and Parallel usages required for combat. It seems counterintuitive, especially since her partners who seem to have almost as high magical coefficients are great at these usages. Perhaps Hayate has already gone over the high arc of the human zone and into the zone where the magic flow is so large more effort has to be spent on controlling than using it. Or maybe close combat just isn't her thing. Or something else that we don't know about magic.

It is the part where she says that she isn't practicing close combat because she's Artillery and training in things you aren't good at is inefficient, to the point her Close Combat Coefficients are close to that of Caro's. I don't know whether to start blasting at this from the personal angle or from the tactics angle (which in turn comes back to describing her as a commander, thus describing her as a person). Wait, there's no difference.

By her logic, Soviet howitzers should dump the 2-3 rounds of HEAT/AP-I they customarily carry as part of their load. Of course, they carry this load to be prepared for anything (such as German and NATO tanks penetrating the front lines and into their rear). No one really expects the howitzers to be an even match for an equal size force of tanks, but by having at least somewhat effective armament, they might be able to fight off a small force of infiltrators or force a larger one to at least deploy rather than shooting the battery up on the march. Considering the unpredictability of combat, this is the correct attitude to take. Assuming the rear is always secure is just naive thinking.

Similarly, even basic close combat techniques should allow her to defeat say a AA that broke through the lines or hold for a few seconds without getting badly hurt until her Wolkenritter can come back to pick her chestnuts out of the fire. Tactical thoughts aside, on a personal level, it implies an inability to face and mitigate her shortcomings, instead choosing to avoid it by taking a weak and codependent (note that Combined Arms does not necessarily equate Weak and Codependent). Anyway, these few lines say a lot about her abilities and attitudes as a commander and a person, none of which is positive.

Chaos: Do you have to take it that far?
Me: It is a matter of character development and tactics, so yes.

[Kha]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

At least now I know where Chaos' "Caro" comment came from. Sorry for doubting you back there, Chaos

Spoiler for OK, OK, I'd put the rant in a spoiler:

The shafting part isn't, by the way, that she's weak in close combat. It is clear they are making Nanoha the Infantry and Fate the Cavalry, so someone has to hold up the 3rd end of the Combined Arms Triangle. And Artillery is God of War after all, so it is hardly a bad position.

Nor is it even the part where Enormous Magical Power contradicts Rapid and Parallel usages required for combat. It seems counterintuitive, especially since her partners who seem to have almost as high magical coefficients are great at these usages. Perhaps Hayate has already gone over the high arc of the human zone and into the zone where the magic flow is so large more effort has to be spent on controlling than using it. Or maybe close combat just isn't her thing. Or something else that we don't know about magic.

It is the part where she says that she isn't practicing close combat because she's Artillery and training in things you aren't good at is inefficient, to the point her Close Combat Coefficients are close to that of Caro's. I don't know whether to start blasting at this from the personal angle or from the tactics angle (which in turn comes back to describing her as a commander, thus describing her as a person). Wait, there's no difference.

By her logic, Soviet howitzers should dump the 2-3 rounds of HEAT/AP-I they customarily carry as part of their load. Of course, they carry this load to be prepared for anything (such as German and NATO tanks penetrating the front lines and into their rear). No one really expects the howitzers to be an even match for an equal size force of tanks, but by having at least somewhat effective armament, they might be able to fight off a small force of infiltrators or force a larger one to at least deploy rather than shooting the battery up on the march. Considering the unpredictability of combat, this is the correct attitude to take. Assuming the rear is always secure is just naive thinking.

Similarly, even basic close combat techniques should allow her to defeat say a AA that broke through the lines or hold for a few seconds without getting badly hurt until her Wolkenritter can come back to pick her chestnuts out of the fire. Tactical thoughts aside, on a personal level, it implies an inability to face and mitigate her shortcomings, instead choosing to avoid it by taking a weak and codependent (note that Combined Arms does not necessarily equate Weak and Codependent). Anyway, these few lines say a lot about her abilities and attitudes as a commander and a person, none of which is positive.

Chaos: Do you have to take it that far?
Me: It is a matter of character development and tactics, so yes.

Well... She's only 19? There is a limit of how much you can learn in canon, unless you're talking about the extremely talented OCs we've been making...

I forgive her focus on range range range, but this will not apply to tactical screw-ups. Then again, this is mahou-shoujo who tries to turn things on its head, and so would retain a few evolutionary baggages of MS anime.

Basically, if we keep arguing on the same points that link to fundamental reasoning it can go on in similar circles forever...

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Kha

Well... She's only 19? There is a limit of how much you can learn in canon, unless you're talking about the extremely talented OCs we've been making...

I don't know what kind of monster OCs you are creating in that thread - I know Keroko's Keroko and Tesla (good but not uber) and someone called "Kha" (brief glimpses suggest the maker made him pretty l33t), and that's it, but...

I'm asking that she learns over ten years as Nanoha did over a few months. Remember when Nanoha met Fate? Then Nanoha was basically a blaster-only, too. She soon realizes that wouldn't let her beat Fate. Matching Fate's doctrine is no good because she's bad at sports and may never match Fate in agility or reflexes given an entire lifetime.

So what does she do? She develops her own mid and close range combat doctrine, the base of which lasts till today, involving homing beams coordinated with sharp blasts - playing to her strengths. By the end of the first Nanoha, the new doctrine proves perfectly competitive, giving Nanoha a useful close in and dogfighting ability to complement her bombardment capability.

Instead, Hayate avoids solving this problem at all. You see how this is character assassination once a contrast is shown?

[LoweGear]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Uh, did you take them yourself? If yes, would you mind putting a couple more inches of distance b/w the camera and the page so you can get the whole thing into sight?

Thanks in advance.

I didn't do those unfortunately, just took them off 4chan, sorry

And not really the type to talk about "character assasination" and such, but I just chalk it down to the fact that there are many people in the world, and not all of them can do the same things. Some people are born naturally talented in one area to the point of perfection, while others are incredibly good at multi-tasking and generalization, while others have to work much harder to achieve the same results as the two former examples. And sometimes, all three come as a result of happenstance rather than choice. You can't expect everyone to be able to cover their bases, just because a few talented people can. But that's why those who can't try and work on the talents that they are good at, and specialize in it, rather than waste energy trying to plug a chink in your armor when you don't have to, because of the people watching your back, and covering for your weaknesses with their own strengths, while you cover their weaknesses with your strength. You just try to do the best that you can do to the best of your ability, and let others do what they're good at.

*rant over*

[Frankenstein's Clare]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

I don't know what kind of monster OCs you are creating in that thread - I know Keroko's Keroko and Tesla (good but not uber) and someone called "Kha" (brief glimpses suggest the maker made him pretty l33t), and that's it, but...

I'm asking that she learns over ten years as Nanoha did over a few months. Remember when Nanoha met Fate? Then Nanoha was basically a blaster-only, too. She soon realizes that wouldn't let her beat Fate. Matching Fate's doctrine is no good because she's bad at sports and may never match Fate in agility or reflexes given an entire lifetime.

So what does she do? She develops her own mid and close range combat doctrine, the base of which lasts till today, involving homing beams coordinated with sharp blasts - playing to her strengths. By the end of the first Nanoha, the new doctrine proves perfectly competitive, giving Nanoha a useful close in and dogfighting ability to complement her bombardment capability.

Instead, Hayate avoids solving this problem at all. You see how this is character assassination once a contrast is shown?

Apologies:

Nanoha has always had an intelligent device to learn from and a well-understood magic system to work with. Hayate uses an ancient magic system almost nobody understands that was info-dumped on her by a device that no longer exists. And from what we've seen of Belkan magic, it lends itself much more heavily to specialization than Midchildan magic. The most versatile Belkan mage we've seen outside the Book itself is probably Vita, who at the end of the day is still far better at smashing things with her hammer than anything else.

Tangent to the above- saying Nanoha and Hayate both started out 'blaster-types' is disingenuous. Nanoha's spells were always meant for one-on-one combat, they were just oriented towards longer ranges. With the exception of Ragnarok Breaker Hayate's all affect huge areas and have a totally different combat role. If the spells we've seen from Hayate are representative of her overall arsenal, she started out far more specialized than Nanoha ever was.

But more than external limits Hayate's personal goals and situation are good explanations for why she hasn't become an ace mage:

Nanoha, as is amply demonstrated by the various Nanoha-in-the-sky-with-diamonds rants characters go on, lives for aerial combat. It's her thing. We have no indication that Hayate has her level of interest in becoming an all-powerful magical dualist, or any at all. All indications are that she's always put the development of her career and influence ahead of the development of her magical powers- she went into investigations rather than a combat branch like Fate and Nanoha, passed the officer examinations far more easily than they but admitted to having reached her mage rank in part due to the favoritism shown rare ability users. It in no way impugns the character for them not to be able to defeat another character/not be capable of fighting in all roles because they had larger goals in life than being a one-woman army.

As you say, Nanoha had Fate, both a threat to her life and a personal obsession, to drive her to develop her tactical doctrines. Hayate has ALWAYS been protected by the Wolkenritter. Necessity is the mother of invention, and Nanoha had huge gobs of necessity where Hayate has probably had none. Why bother developing a tactical doctrine for a situation you're unlikely to ever encounter? What's the point in being able to fend off an enemy at close range if Signum or Vita or a huge army of TSA redshirts are always going to be standing in front of you? It's a waste of time.

[Nightengale]

I'm generally in agreement on the combat-related aspects, that while it can be better portrayed, but aside from the whole inexperienced commander thing that doesn't really come across as being that well portrayed, I have nothing really against Hayate's artillery status. Besides, it could be just that Hayate gets airsick easily at high-speed flights. Not everyone is made for high speed aerial dog-fights, even after a decade of flying.

However, I do believe that there is a degree of character assassination (( is that what's lackluster development is called these days? )) on the aspect of the 'tool' concept that was supposed to represent Hayate's status as a rare-skill elite mage that's one in thousands (( Ancient Belka + SS + Rare Skill )) alongside her supposed leadership... which honestly, doesn't really reflect much if there was a point behind that. For most parts, aside from the limitations she practically agreed to, she seems to be fully in control of herself and RF6, with little political, red-taping slapping her in the face, and being backed by strong backers that are people she can trust, rely and treat her as family... aside from her self-guilt thing which honestly, got brushed over relatively quickly, there seems to be nothing born from that sub-plot other than making Hayate feel different... which honestly, doesn't really feel that way.

This is off-topic though.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Frankenstein's Clare

Apologies:

Nanoha has always had an intelligent device to learn from and a well-understood magic system to work with. Hayate uses an ancient magic system almost nobody understands that was info-dumped on her by a device that no longer exists.

1) It is hardly as unknown as you imply. Ultimately, between herself and the TSAB, they did make a new Reinforce. Creating a whole human-grade personality magical being from dirt is pretty advanced stuff.
2) Belka is basically a Midchildran offshoot and has been recreated into the New Belka.
3) If Belkan magic is being very restrictive, there seems no reason why she can't just change tracks into the more flexible Midchildran (which is supposed to more suitable for bombardment). She already uses a wierd mishmash of Belkan and Midchildran magic anyway (see Hraesvelgr's firing circles).

Tangent to the above- saying Nanoha and Hayate both started out 'blaster-types' is disingenuous. Nanoha's spells were always meant for one-on-one combat, they were just oriented towards longer ranges. With the exception of Ragnarok Breaker Hayate's all affect huge areas and have a totally different combat role. If the spells we've seen from Hayate are representative of her overall arsenal, she started out far more specialized than Nanoha ever was.

I am aware of the difference between the two's artillery attacks. In fact, I'd even grant that given Hayate's apparent specialty, it is less adaptable and thus it is likely she'd never achieve the same level of all-roundness as Nanoha or Fate. That's not why I'm complaining.

As you say, Nanoha had Fate, both a threat to her life and a personal obsession, to drive her to develop her tactical doctrines. Hayate has ALWAYS been protected by the Wolkenritter. Necessity is the mother of invention, and Nanoha had huge gobs of necessity where Hayate has probably had none. Why bother developing a tactical doctrine for a situation you're unlikely to ever encounter? What's the point in being able to fend off an enemy at close range if Signum or Vita or a huge army of TSA redshirts are always going to be standing in front of you? It's a waste of time.

Spoiler for Size:

Here we get back to the direct fire capability of howitzers. There are supposed to be entire regiments of tanks and infantry standing in front of the Soviet artillery units. Yet they all carry a couple of rounds of HEAT or AP-I, and practice for direct as well as the indirect modes of fire. THe reason, of course is that you can never predict when NATO tanks are going to punch / find a hole through the lines.

Same thing for the TSAB - especially since enemies can teleport. Expecting all enemies to be as dumb as the TSAB (and thus not exploit the many maneuver opportunities brought by teleport and the huge sky in general) is pretty ... presumptious. Those redshirts are useless, as everyone knows, and as for the Wolkenritter, even with Signum and Vita as forward guard and Zafira as close guard, it is not hard to see how even a single attacker can potentially get to Hayate. If there's a team, even if the overall coefficient is inferior, it can still get dangerous.

Example: Imagine 3, 7, 8, 9, 11 and 12 going head to head against our entire heroine team. Logically, this is a horrible situation for the Numbers. They are outnumbered 7 to 6, and Wendi and Novu are flying on a skateboard while all our heroines are flying - and our heroines are superior in overall coefficient to boot. But start with a 4 on 4. That leaves Wendi and Novu. Have Wendi fire at Hayate. Based on historical indices, Shamal would block with those card like shields and Zafira would instinctively try to counter. That pretty much leaves Hayate open. Probably Novu can reach her using pirated Wing Road and Hayate will be screwed whatever else happens.

And this is with relatively inflexible Numbers. Mages are likely to be more flexible and can do this with fewer people. Add that most of the time it will just be the Wolkenritter, or even just Vita and Signum, and it is surprising an accident hadn't happened to Hayate yet.

Again, it is the lack of effort (over ten years) that astounds me more than the lack of result.. While it is admittedly hard to think of means to convert the large area artillery firing into a scheme that will allow her to combat a SS or S close combat pro on even terms, it can't be that hard to come up with something (say self defense fragmentation area attack?) to defeat a target of AA or below rank.

Given the TSAB's pathological love for dispersal, I'm shocked no one told Hayate to get herself some self-defense. I mean, if she can defend herself, then they can reassign Signum and Vita in accordance to their Dispersal Policy and cover Yet More Fronts! Everyone wins. Kind of, anyway.

Learning Self Defence It also converts to many more tactical options for the Wolkenritter team when they are together. With the need to guard Hayate against everything reduced, they can cover more front, be more aggressive in their attack, and so on. Which means superior combat coefficients.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

I don't know what kind of monster OCs you are creating in that thread - I know Keroko's Keroko and Tesla (good but not uber) and someone called "Kha" (brief glimpses suggest the maker made him pretty l33t), and that's it, but...

To be more presice, Keroko is as powerfull as Nanoha, and mainly a mid-ranged combatant. Even her device (a dual sided axe) is mainly there to scream 'stay away from me!' which is precicely what she wants. She can handle herself in close combat, but is by no means an expert in it.

Tesla is about as powerfull as the Wolkies come, certainly not more so, and is mainly a sniper/tacician. The weakest out of all of them in close combat, bar Shamal. Still quite nasty though.

I tend to focuss on balance when it comes to my OC's. Using mine as examples of strong or fast learners (well, she does learn fast, but not more so then the other three) is a bad example of OC-thread madness.

Originally Posted by Frankenstein's Clare

But more than external limits Hayate's personal goals and situation are good explanations for why she hasn't become an ace mage:

Buh..? I thought Hayate is an Ace. What with all the 'three Aces' and all.

[Chaos2Frozen]

@arkhangelsk

Ermmm... Which "Caro" comment were you refering to ?

Cause I've said alot of things about that girl...

Oh wait, is it about how Caro is the only one Hayate can defeat one on one?