2011-10-21, 18:37 | Link #261 |
Black Steel Knight
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Indonesia
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I think you're goin' a little bit too far there, my friend. All of this is just a matter of taste, not sanity. You only belittle yourself as an original FMA fan by saying that 'sanity' stuff. Also, I respect the OP for sharing his mind by not insulting the fans of the other side. Don't start a foolish war here. I thought that both version of FMA already told us that war is bad.
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2011-10-21, 19:21 | Link #263 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
Age: 33
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Yes, though generally, works that include a large amount of clichés are inferior to those that don't. That's why most people advise writers to avoid them.
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As I said in the original post, I don't dislike it. I just don't think that it's better than the first series or that it's the 2nd best anime ever produced; it's an above average shonen, but it's nothing special. I suppose a common way of putting it is that it's overrated. Also, just because something is based closely upon the original work doesn't necessarily mean that it's better. Last edited by LunarMoon; 2011-10-21 at 19:51. |
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2011-10-21, 19:43 | Link #264 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2007
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If you like sad & tragic endings that's fine but I am tired of people acting like sad=deep and happy=cliche. There are just as many sad endings in anime as there are happy ones. In fact I would say tragic endings are even more common in anime. Also this whole thing about Brotherhood only being about fights. The first series had a great deal of fights too & there was plenty of focus on that. I guess first anime fans who like to put down Brotherhood just like to conveniently forget this.
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Last edited by Kirarakim; 2011-10-21 at 19:59. |
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2011-10-21, 19:56 | Link #265 | |
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2011-10-21, 20:34 | Link #266 | ||||
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Age: 33
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Last edited by LunarMoon; 2011-10-21 at 20:54. |
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2011-10-21, 20:55 | Link #267 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2007
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There are PLENTY of sad & tragic endings in fiction (these type of endings are not as original as you make them out to be). Just like there are plenty of happy ones. The tone of the ending does not make a series better or worse; it's what the viewer gets out of it & the presentation. And I personally like series with both types of endings. But I certainly don't think one is better or more unique than the other; because it definitely is not. That's why I can enjoy a film like Bicycle Thieves & Singing in the Rain and see the beauty of both. Now I personally got far more meaning out of Brotherhood's ending than I did out of the first series. If you enjoyed the first series better & it was more meaningful to you well more power to you. But that doesn't mean Brotherhood or the manga lacked depth because it has a hopeful ending.
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2011-10-21, 21:32 | Link #268 | ||
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Oh well, not my problem. Don't lemme stop you from revelling in your pseudo-philosophical melodrama and looking down on anything that tries to provoke an emotional resonance through something other than tragedy (and the supposed originality of taking a tragedy-esque direction in a storyline doesn't count for much either when said tragic elements are poorly implemented and sloppily written, not containing much of a purpose other than drama for the sake of drama (i.e. 2003 FMA anime), but that's neither here nor there). Last edited by Vicious108; 2011-10-21 at 21:44. |
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2011-10-21, 22:22 | Link #269 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2007
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Has the theme of "relying on others" been done before? Certainly! But you know what so has the theme of the "hero" going at it alone to protect his loved one (ie: the first series). They are both cliches it just depends on which one you prefer. And yes there are plenty of other cliches in the first series too. Finally I never said the Fullmetal Alchemist manga/Brotherhood was about the "power of friendship". All I said was it was about relying on others and not solely one's own power. This is an important lesson for the brothers in the manga who early on try to do everything alone and don't trust others, slowly but surely they start to open up to others, tell them their problems, and rely on them. More important there is strong aspect of the adults in the series working with the teens of the story and helping them out. If anything I would say it's far more common for stories to have the teenagers have to "grow up" & save the world on their own. In Fullmetal Alchemist for Ed & Al growing up was accepting help from others & learning to trust in adults. As for One Piece I definitely enjoy it for what it is, but no I don't think it works its themes the same way as Fullmetal Alchemist at all. Maybe if you only look at both series on a very superficial level.
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2011-10-21, 23:02 | Link #270 |
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: New York, NY
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If I was to compare the first adaptation (I'll never call it original because an adaptation is not an original work) to the second adaptation and the manga I'd have to say that the second adaptation was actually more enjoyable for me.
Just because a work is dark and has some controversial themes doesn't make it deep and mature, just like a series that is overall hopeful and happy doesn't make it shallow and childish, and the first and second adaptations are prime examples of this. In Brotherhood, they had quite a few themes such as moving on from the horrible things you faced in the past, placing your trust in others, forgiving yourself and those that have wronged you, and redeeming yourself from the crimes that you committed in the past, etc. all of which were realized and handled with great maturity. Though I tend to laugh at anyone who claims the manga and Brotherhood unrealistic considering that many of the characters in the manga and brotherhood were actually based on real people, just goes to prove that sometimes life isn't always pain and sorrow, people can and do move on with their lives. As for why I think that the first adaptation wasn't as good (for the record I've always had problems with it) is not because of the angst and dark elements, in fact I love series with angst and dark elements (my love of Bokurano, Now and Then Here and There and Mirai Nikki can attest to that) its the way it handled those dark elements. With the first adaptation it seemed like it just used those elements were to just shock you, so that it could get a knee jerk reaction from you, but unfortunately it couldn't shock me so instead I was left wondering what the point was to them introducing the dark elements to begin with, especially when they came up out of no where and didn't really have a meaningless. Which ultimately gave me the impression that it was more preoccupied with topping the last the dark element it introduced than it was with just telling its story, which ended up making the story feel contrived. |
2011-10-22, 09:08 | Link #271 | ||||||||
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Age: 33
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Huge post, but I tried to respond to as many posts as possible.
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That would be the difference between a poorly done tragic series such as Basilisk and well done drama such as FMA 2003. One lacks anything resembling a plot, while the other uses its unusual elements to improve upon the entire whole. It adds points in the same way that not including a dragon in a fantasy adds points, but no one really cares that Harry Potter includes them, because both that creative point and everything else is so well written. Likewise, I would say the exact opposite if tragic elements suddenly became the norm (a “Reverse Hollywood Ending”?), while uplifting works suddenly became unusual shocks. Quote:
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2011-10-22, 09:31 | Link #272 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: New York, NY
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Dark elements isn't just gore and porn, it also includes things like matricide, ,filicide, patricide, and rape (which is what happened to Rose), and things you can't really define like Dante's entire character, etc. |
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2011-10-22, 10:19 | Link #273 | |||||
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Join Date: Aug 2007
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The first series also had plenty of other cliches: such as sacrificing yourself (which the manga thankfully negated); and the whole peaceful VS loud brother. Quote:
Spoiler for Manga Equivalent Exchange:
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The theme is shown throughout the series not in GRAND moments like in One Piece with Luffy rescuing his Nakama. It's in small scenes like Spoiler for Examples:
And it's further explored Spoiler for for Ending:
Don't get me wrong I love One Piece but they are very different in their approach and I really don't see how you can say one is better than the other. One Piece is more about relying on your friends/Nakama, FMA is about not thinking you can or should do everything alone. It's a subtle difference but it is different. Quote:
There is nothing refreshing about a tragic tone to a story. What is refreshing is a well told story no matter the tone. Quote:
And besides we are talking about anime and with anime tragic & bitter sweet endings are common and nothing special. edit: Added more spoiler tags just in case!
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Last edited by Kirarakim; 2011-10-23 at 16:35. |
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2011-10-22, 11:03 | Link #274 | ||
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Age: 33
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Also, though I agree with you about Gantz, I don't dislike it because it's childish. The Wizard of Oz, Alice in Wonderland, The Hobbit, and Chronicles of Narnia are childish, because, well, all of them were originally written for children, but they're still better than the overwhelming majority of fictional works. No, I dislike Gantz, and works similar to it, because it’s a mindless gore fest that fails to inspire any sort of emotional response for me. Art's purpose is to inspire an emotional response in its audience; that emotional response may vary from happiness, to sadness, to disgust, but if it inspires nothing, then in fails as an artistic work. Mindless violence, which FMA 2003 isn't, inspires nothing but apathy in me. Quote:
Spoiler for Multiple Spoilers For Full Metal Alchemist 2003:
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2011-10-22, 11:28 | Link #276 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Father's Motivation
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As for the whole Roy/Winry thing unfortunately the first anime made it all about Roy. Winry's loss & what it did to her was barely a factor. It was just a way to give Roy more angst. Spoiler for For Ishval:
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2011-10-22, 13:00 | Link #277 | |
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Location: New York, NY
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Also the 2003 did the same thing that Gantz did in that they only wanted a knee jerk emotional response, and in its same vein all of it was unnecessary and if it failed to elicit an emotional response out of you would only leave you confused as to why they did that. Again, I am not talking about content, I am talking about the method. You know what its no use using the spoiler for 2003 series because of its age. Your not answering my question, I know what happened but again, what was the point to all of that? What was the point to having Rose being raped, she hadn't been around since episode 2 so I didn't feel anything for her character, the emotional response was lost on me. Heck what was the point to what happened with Lior, Lior hasn't been around for just as long, so again what was the point of doing that to Lior, especially since Lior is already a part of the country so what was the point of the war, especially since Dante didn't have as much influence as Father did, how did they even explain this to the other higher ups? Yes one of the themes was War is hell but the effects Ishvalan war already drove that point home. What was the point to Dante's character, I'm not talking about motivation or emotional response I'm asking for the point. She's just some crone whose afraid of dying. That's it there's nothing special about her, she's not smarter than anybody else, she's lacks charisma, and she wasn't that great at alchemy either, and her influence was also severely limited to just the homunculus. So how the heck was she able to do what she did? And for that matter what was ultimately the point to having her as a villain. And also about Mustang and Winry's parents they didn't do anything with it, it was just introduced and like everything else dropped. They didn't even have Winry confront him about it, or even have tell Winry. It was just used as another reason to make Roy angst, the Ishvalans that he killed were people as well, so he was already in the wrong for killing those innocent civilians (which was already an established fact that most if not all alchemists killed civilians). By only having him concern himself with the Rockbells is like saying that the Ishvalans are less than them, which is actually a pretty racist message. There was literally no point having Roy kill Winry's parents to try and drive that point home, the fact that he (as well as many of the other characters) was involved with the Ishval war already drove that point home, introducing that and not doing anything with it was just unnecessary. |
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2011-10-26, 01:12 | Link #278 | ||||
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Join Date: Sep 2010
Age: 33
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Sorry for the long delay in the response. A slew of projects, exams, and a few extra errands kept me busy, but now that I have some time to breath, it’s time to get back into the discussion.
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Anyway, the following is my assessment of the series after watching it, and isn't really a direct response to anyone. It's pretty long so I decided to place it into spoiler tags to seperate the content. I mentioned that I was unimpressed by Brotherhood. That's largely due to the hype I had coming into it; I just can't see it as a #2 series, or as better than the 2003 anime. Spoiler for Assessment of FMA Brotherhood:
Last edited by LunarMoon; 2011-10-26 at 02:07. |
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2011-10-26, 08:51 | Link #279 | ||
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: New York, NY
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Actually I would call the 2003 series lolgrimdark as much of its dark components ultimately didn't have a purpose for being there, and was just there to get a response. But storyline wise it doesn't make any sense, and comes across as juvenile. The thing about Lust's character in the 2003 version is that she was meaningless (much like Rose and many other female characters in that story), none of that character development they gave her meant anything overall, quite like much of the series. Actually there are a lot unfortunate implication in the 2003 adaptation both about women (ironic since the original series the adaptation was based on was written and drawn by a woman) and about race in general. Also the things you just mentioned in FMA:B started before episode 40, Also kirakim is right about "trusting others" being a theme of Brotherhood and the manga, as Ed wouldn't have been able to been able to make it that far, it he didn't trust in others. Though the show never told us this, it showed us this through the actions of the characters and the fact that, it was the trust that they had for one another that ultimately made the coup d'etat successful. Not series has to have dark elements to be considered good. In fact a series that has dark elements just to have them is not a good series at all. Also as I said before quite a few of the story lines and characters in Brotherhood were actually based off of real people and what they went through so you might want to refrain from even trying to imply that the the story and characters are unrealistic and childish. Spoiler for off topic:
But again it seems like to you in order for a series to be considered "mature" and good it must have dark elements in it, and I've really gotta say that makes you seem juvenile. |
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2011-10-26, 12:37 | Link #280 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Lunar Moon:
It's fine that you liked the first series more or that it's philosophy came through stronger to you. Everyone has a different opinion and frankly everyone gets something different out of fiction. My issue is when people say Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood (or the Manga) lacks depth in comparison. No it doesn't, it just presents itself in a different way and that different way had more depth for me. As for the theme of Ed having to "trust others" well I will stick by what I said. Like I said there is no grand speech or pivotal moment Spoiler:
Actually a scene in one of the openings I think displays this quite perfectly: Ed and Al are standing alone and suddenly they are surrounded by more and more allies. But I think just saying "to trust others" is simplifying it. But I will blame myself here not having the eloquence to explain what I mean. It's more or less at the beginning of the series Ed and Al believe they can solve all their problems alone with alchemy. It's actually in a sense a very arrogant way to look at things. But as the series goes on they start realizing alchemy is not going to solve all their problems. They start sharing their problems with others (no longer keeping everything just between them) and actually asking for help. Why did the good guys win in the end? Well besides Father's own arrogance I will say they won because it was truly a "team effort" in every sense of the word. As for the series being about sacrifice well that I completely disagree with and I think that is more what the first series is about. I don't think Ed & Al sacrificed anything but instead gained a lot. They went through a painful lesson yes but I can't say they didn't get anything out of it. And in fact Ed & Al themselves felt they they were given so much that at the end of the series they want to give back to: Spoiler:
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Sacrifice to me has negative connotations. In fact the two times it was brought up Spoiler:
This is met with a negative response Spoiler:
edit: And I have nothing against a darker story: I actually love Grave of the Fireflies, Rurouni Kenshin: Trust & Betrayal & Now and Then Here and There. But I will stick by what I say that a darker & more tragic story is not anymore deep or original than a lighter more hopeful story.
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