Macross Frontier Character Discussion - Alto Saotome

[Lancel]

... Is it okay to talk second movie spoilers in this thread? I suppose I'll just spoiler tag this just in case. Also fair warning, this is totally geeky.

Spoiler:

Originally Posted by BetoJR

And I'd like to know why Sheryl and Alto sleeping together would make him a jerk... Personally, I just don't see it.

I came to a strange kind of comparison this morning as a result of this discussion and possibly this very comment, thus the quotation. I don't know how many of you have played Mass Effect (I know a couple of you have), but I got to thinking about the differences between Movie Alto and Series Alto and came to this realization:

Series Alto resolves to make the hard decisions and make sacrifices in order to save Frontier, including annihilating the Vajra and even killing Ranka.

Movie Alto initially considers this but converts over to where he resolves to make sacrifices of himself in order to save everyone, including the Vajra, even though it's hard.

One makes the hard decisions to sacrifice things to save his home/humanity. One makes hard decisions by taking the hard path to save everyone (including home/humanity). Which to anyone who has played Mass Effect can probably see as roughly equivalent to Renegade Shepard and Paragon Shepard respectively, which offers a suggestion that Series Alto a Renegade, and Movie Alto a Paragon.

When I thought about it this way I started looking at various actions Alto commits and I noticed a lot of them, even in specific moments, I could see working in a similar fashion in Mass Effect. When he talks to Klan and resolves to kill Ranka, Renegade option. When he pulls a gun on Ai-kun and says they have to destroy the Vajra to Ranka, Renegade option. When he intercepts Mikhail's slap in the movie, Paragon interrupt. Choosing to relay the song and make peace with the Vajra instead of getting out of the blast zone, Paragon option. So on and so forth.

Series Alto was more into looking for a military solution. In fact his final solution was a military one, and though the song was important to him, he still delivered them all by the barrel of a gun. Movie Alto gave a stark contrast to this as he ends up freeing the Vajra and on his final charge he doesn't kill Brera and he instead relays the song to the Vajra Queen and Brera to defeat Galaxy, all without killing after he realizes what's going on.

Anyway, it kinda came to mind when I got to thinking about Alto as a jerk, because really Renegade Shepard is also kind of a jerk. It seemed to fit. I thought it was an interesting comparison to make anyway. And... and I probably just totally made myself look like a total nerdy geek with this.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

And we all respect each other's right to their opinions, right? RIGHT? Right...

LOL...I can totally hear the three different 'tones' you might have been using here

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Nah, shipping is fun.

Not when I'm in the middle of it!!

Originally Posted by BetoJR

And what would that be, again? Sorry, but I sometimes spaz out when you two lovebirds start at it...

Answering seriously though - it was in the movie thread a couple of days ago. But I really don't want to open this can of worms, so could we leave it at that?

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Okay, I'll bite: what exactly was that argument? I don't really recall it being discussed here - did some of the writers claim that Alto slept with Sheryl simply out of pity?
What are they, insane?

It wasn't discussed here. Also, when I said 'PASH! writers', I meant 'the people who write articles for PASH! magazine'. Another thing that's important to know is that PASH! is a magazine aimed at girls - which may well mean that I am the only person here that has a copy of this mook.

Anyways, on page 9, there is a run down of Alto's actions towards Sheryl and Ranka, four incidents each. It's written as if Sheryl and Ranka are commenting on them, and they label each incident as a 'plus point' or a 'minus point'. The episode 22 scene is the minus point for Sheryl, with her comment that "Going with the flow in that situation is a minus point! Because, in some situations, sympathy/compassion/pity (同情) hurts."

So basically, they're saying that 'sympathy' is how Sheryl sees it.

A bit later in the mook, however, on p.45, the PASH! writers do note that "there could have been some feelings of sympathy/compassion" mixed in. But they also regard it as the high point in their relationship, because it's here that Alto and Sheryl completely understand each other. [On the other hand, they screwed up the 'relationship path chart' here, putting the episode 23 scene before the episode 22 one in the relationship timeline. So yeah, take of it what you will. The PASH! articles are mostly just a fun read to me, although they do raise interesting points for considerations. The interviews are far more informative.]

=====

Originally Posted by magnuskn

No, no, you misunderstood. I was trying to emphase that I think my opinion is my own, but I may be totally wrong, although I think I have a very good case. It wasn't meant as any sort of put-down or somesuch.

I think we started talking past each other again. I was referring to your earlier comment about how I

seem to have very different ideas of what the majority of things mean about Alto and the relationship between Sheryl and Alto

which I took to mean very different ideas 'from most people here' as opposed to very different ideas from just yourself. I'm not too fussed about it though

=====

Originally Posted by KaoruLia

@karice67: the whole thing about Alto being based on Taichi Saotome may not be too far-fetched.

Taichi has immense popularity for a kabuki (onnagata) actor, and it may be attributed to his good looks. The guy made it onto Oricon 2010's Most Beautiful Celebrity (positioned at no 6) beating some of the more mainstream actors/singers in Japan. He's pretty much part of Japan's pop-culture and it makes sense that Kawamura would base Alto on an existing public persona.

After all, Kawamura's gonna direct that... AKB48 anime >_>, so he must have an interest in the current idol/entertainment industry.

Well this is just my speculation after all and I don't think Kawamura has said anything about Alto being based on the Saotome family, so don't take it too seriously.

Saotome is actually a stage name that Taiichi has taken up - his real surname is Nishimura, and his father performs under the name 「葵陽之介」, which reads as 'AOI Younosuke'. And yeah, I doubt Kawamori would say anything about it in the first place - even if Taiichi's popularity influenced him, I don't think he can say anything about it officially. But it really wouldn't surprise me - Taiichi was popular enough to get his own (official) fanclub in 2006, at the age of 16.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by karice67

Not when I'm in the middle of it!!

Uh oh, now cheesie knows who to consider entry in my every-growing virtual harem

You know you are secretly delighted!

Originally Posted by karice67

Answering seriously though - it was in the movie thread a couple of days ago. But I really don't want to open this can of worms, so could we leave it at that?

Accepting your can of worms unconditionally!!

Originally Posted by karice67

But they also regard it as the high point in their relationship, because it's here that Alto and Sheryl completely understand each other.

Indeed it was. People from IRC can recall my reaction after watching the said episode

I was jumping in joy. Oh yes.

Originally Posted by karice67

Saotome is actually a stage name that Taiichi has taken up - his real surname is Nishimura, and his father performs under the name 「葵陽之介」, which reads as 'AOI Younosuke'

And sounds completely made up (well, it is!). My own last name is just bland. Bah.

- Tak

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Tak

Uh oh, now cheesie knows who to consider entry in my every-growing virtual harem

You know you are secretly delighted!

No thanks

Why be just another member of someone else's harem when I can be the master of my own (reverse) harem? And in real life to boot, rather than virtual

Originally Posted by Tak

Accepting your can of worms unconditionally!!

Only if everyone else will eat them

Originally Posted by Tak

Indeed it was. People from IRC can recall my reaction after watching the said episode

I was jumping in joy. Oh yes.

Meh, I much prefer the scene in episode 24 I'm much happier with the point that both Alto and Sheryl have reached there.

Originally Posted by Tak

My own last name is just bland. Bah.

Now you've got me curious...

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Lancel

... Is it okay to talk second movie spoilers in this thread? I suppose I'll just spoiler tag this just in case. Also fair warning, this is totally geeky.

Spoiler:

I came to a strange kind of comparison this morning as a result of this discussion and possibly this very comment, thus the quotation. I don't know how many of you have played Mass Effect (I know a couple of you have), but I got to thinking about the differences between Movie Alto and Series Alto and came to this realization:

Series Alto resolves to make the hard decisions and make sacrifices in order to save Frontier, including annihilating the Vajra and even killing Ranka.

Movie Alto initially considers this but converts over to where he resolves to make sacrifices of himself in order to save everyone, including the Vajra, even though it's hard.

One makes the hard decisions to sacrifice things to save his home/humanity. One makes hard decisions by taking the hard path to save everyone (including home/humanity). Which to anyone who has played Mass Effect can probably see as roughly equivalent to Renegade Shepard and Paragon Shepard respectively, which offers a suggestion that Series Alto a Renegade, and Movie Alto a Paragon.

When I thought about it this way I started looking at various actions Alto commits and I noticed a lot of them, even in specific moments, I could see working in a similar fashion in Mass Effect. When he talks to Klan and resolves to kill Ranka, Renegade option. When he pulls a gun on Ai-kun and says they have to destroy the Vajra to Ranka, Renegade option. When he intercepts Mikhail's slap in the movie, Paragon interrupt. Choosing to relay the song and make peace with the Vajra instead of getting out of the blast zone, Paragon option. So on and so forth.

Series Alto was more into looking for a military solution. In fact his final solution was a military one, and though the song was important to him, he still delivered them all by the barrel of a gun. Movie Alto gave a stark contrast to this as he ends up freeing the Vajra and on his final charge he doesn't kill Brera and he instead relays the song to the Vajra Queen and Brera to defeat Galaxy, all without killing after he realizes what's going on.

Anyway, it kinda came to mind when I got to thinking about Alto as a jerk, because really Renegade Shepard is also kind of a jerk. It seemed to fit. I thought it was an interesting comparison to make anyway. And... and I probably just totally made myself look like a total nerdy geek with this.

I see some of your points, although there are important parts differentiate a Renegade Shepard from TV series Alto. Renegade Shepard is a jerk, who doesn't mind murdering a few people who get in his way. Alto does not show such tendencies, he basically stays a decent human being. He only goes the "kill-em-all" way he does because he is confronted with an enemy which by all appearances mindless and as such attacks without provocation. As soon as he gets better information on the Vajra ( which only happens in the last episode of the series ), he changes his mind.

So, no, the comparison doesn't work. Shepard had the same amount of information about his opponents, regardless of being a Renegade or Paragon. He still chose to be a complete douche when being a Renegade. Alto acts the way he does, because he doesn't have all the information.

And it doesn't work on another level, too. Being a Renegade essentially is about going the most convenient and ruthless route, while being a Paragon is trying to find a more diplomatic and nuanced approach. The problem is, Alto was not really presented with much of a choice in that regard. The only real choice offered to him was about either leaving Frontier with the Quarter crew to go after Ranka or staying on Frontier and with Sheryl. Can you say with a straight face that staying with Sheryl is the Renegade choice?

Originally Posted by karice67

I'm not too fussed about it though

Works for me, then.

[Lancel]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I see some of your points, although there are important parts differentiate a Renegade Shepard from TV series Alto. Renegade Shepard is a jerk, who doesn't mind murdering a few people who get in his way. Alto does not show such tendencies, he basically stays a decent human being. He only goes the "kill-em-all" way he does because he is confronted with an enemy which by all appearances mindless and as such attacks without provocation. As soon as he gets better information on the Vajra ( which only happens in the last episode of the series ), he changes his mind.

So, no, the comparison doesn't work. Shepard had the same amount of information about his opponents, regardless of being a Renegade or Paragon. He still chose to be a complete douche when being a Renegade. Alto acts the way he does, because he doesn't have all the information.

And it doesn't work on another level, too. Being a Renegade essentially is about going the most convenient and ruthless route, while being a Paragon is trying to find a more diplomatic and nuanced approach. The problem is, Alto was not really presented with much of a choice in that regard. The only real choice offered to him was about either leaving Frontier with the Quarter crew to go after Ranka or staying on Frontier and with Sheryl. Can you say with a straight face that staying with Sheryl is the Renegade choice?

Naah, that was more of an option where the paragon and renegade options were grayed out. I wouldn't say everything he did was renegade. Staying with Sheryl was really more a by product of his choice. It's really hard to say if he really made a choice about that, but he certainly hung around her. I still wouldn't even call him a total jerk. Maybe he was a jerk sometimes, but heck, isn't everyone?

I might suggest sleeping with her might be a Renegade option. Still, I'm not suggesting I disagree with your assessment of him, I actually agree with it, I just throw stuff around. He's kinda nuanced and doesn't express himself much. Partially because I'm not sure he knows how to express himself much. Spent too much time pretending to be a girl, and that I think is where he gets his real character development. I kinda liked him later because he was rather flawed for the hero, and not in any typical sense. Heroes generally know who they are and what they do. Alto most of the time never seemed to.

Really, he stayed with Sheryl because Sheryl was important to him and I think she's a lot of how he learned to express himself, because she could express herself even though she acted from time to time, and she prodded him to express himself plenty of times.

Of that scene though, yeah, he probably did, but I don't think he was damned if he did and damned if he didn't. She was upset and depressed, so that could be construed as taking advantage of her (assuming he did) even if she did offer. She just needed comforting, so probably a hug and suggesting she get some sleep might be a thought. Of course, it could have quickly gotten complicated for poor, POOR Alto if she started heating things up herself, and if that happened, truly we would all feel great sympathy for poor, poor Alto. Yeah. Okay, speaking as a guy I can say it would be really, really hard to say no in that situation. Seriously, if he did, I don't think I would call him a jerk for it, I'd call him a GUY for it, but maybe he could have put up a little resistance for the sake of a deeply upset woman, but yes, it is actually really pretty hard when the rest of the circumstances are "You are alone with a smoking hot woman your age who wants you." Now I've rambled on again. Anyway, to me that's about how I think he should have done it. Realistically though, if Sheryl did get laid I really doubt she regretted it at all. There is a romantic notion there though that if Alto didn't feel completely comfortable of then he really probably shouldn't have, and if that were the case, then Sheryl might feel a little betrayed. Thus, I may suggest that the real moral quandary here is actually in Alto potentially betraying his own feelings. Either he did so with the right feelings, or he did so because he didn't want to hurt Sheryl's feelings by saying no. We can be pretty sure of Sheryl's feelings on this matter.

Wow, okay, this is complicated. Now I'm not sure about this, maybe Alto was doomed. I think putting it short he just needed to be honest with her about his feelings, see what her real feelings were, and then go from there.

No accounting for teenagers though.

Ramble complete, going for lunch.

[BetoJR]

Yeah, I would have had a hard time doing anything other than comforting her in whatever way I could at that time, myself. And yes, my mind does veer towards sex more often than most japanese folks, I'd gather (hmm, maybe not - but I'm damn sure I do act more on it, IRL).

What I'm trying to say is: there is no "taking advantage of" in that situation, at least in my mind's eye. But everyone is entitled to their own opinion, of course.

[magnuskn]

My take is that since both wanted it and it is pretty clear by now that both wanted each other as persons, it was totally okay and non-jerkish on Altos part.

[Lancel]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

My take is that since both wanted it and it is pretty clear by now that both wanted each other as persons, it was totally okay and non-jerkish on Altos part.

Generally I agree, but there could be an argument for if she would have wanted it afterward if she was emotionally compromised to make that decision, buuuut I think we can safely say Sheryl totally would have done it anyway. After further thought I'd really say they were both equally to blame. Heck, Alto just found out she was dying. Guys have feelings, too.

I'm just going to come out and say this, they both needed comforting. Both of them were going through some pretty hard and uncertain times, as was all of Frontier. Would I be a bastard to suggest the double standard at work here? I don't know, but I would be curious to know who would get the blame if their genders were reversed. Now I may be committing political suicide here for suggesting this in particular, but the scene does seem to suggest that sex was Sheryl's idea, so perhaps it could be argued that she has more to blame. Or I just fail at life, which I'm told is often the case.

I guess they could have picked a happier time for that too but that's being picky given the circumstances.

[magnuskn]

Could we just drop the "blame" theme? Because as far as I can see it, there's no one to blame, they were both consenting. Geeze.

[Lancel]

That probably came out a little harsher than intended, due to lack of editing. I don't mean to blame anyone, just pointing out that if you wanted to assign blame well... there's something. But there's always something. I think all I'm going to come away with from that rambling circling rant of mine is that trying to pin blame on someone in this case is just a witch hunt.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Lancel

Generally I agree, but there could be an argument for if she would have wanted it afterward if she was emotionally compromised to make that decision, buuuut I think we can safely say Sheryl totally would have done it anyway. After further thought I'd really say they were both equally to blame. Heck, Alto just found out she was dying. Guys have feelings, too.

I'm just going to come out and say this, they both needed comforting. Both of them were going through some pretty hard and uncertain times, as was all of Frontier. Would I be a bastard to suggest the double standard at work here? I don't know, but I would be curious to know who would get the blame if their genders were reversed. Now I may be committing political suicide here for suggesting this in particular, but the scene does seem to suggest that sex was Sheryl's idea, so perhaps it could be argued that she has more to blame. Or I just fail at life, which I'm told is often the case.

I guess they could have picked a happier time for that too but that's being picky given the circumstances.

'Blame' definitely isn't the word to use.

It might be interesting to consider, however, if there is something that either Alto or Sheryl (or even both) might regret about how the night played out, especially considering the line from your post that I've bolded.

But I've got another translation to do, so that should be it from me...at least for now.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Lancel

Of that scene though, yeah, he probably did, but I don't think he was damned if he did and damned if he didn't. She was upset and depressed, so that could be construed as taking advantage of her (assuming he did) even if she did offer. She just needed comforting, so probably a hug and suggesting she get some sleep might be a thought. Of course, it could have quickly gotten complicated for poor, POOR Alto if she started heating things up herself, and if that happened, truly we would all feel great sympathy for poor, poor Alto. Yeah. Okay, speaking as a guy I can say it would be really, really hard to say no in that situation. Seriously, if he did, I don't think I would call him a jerk for it, I'd call him a GUY for it, but maybe he could have put up a little resistance for the sake of a deeply upset woman, but yes, it is actually really pretty hard when the rest of the circumstances are "You are alone with a smoking hot woman your age who wants you." Now I've rambled on again. Anyway, to me that's about how I think he should have done it. Realistically though, if Sheryl did get laid I really doubt she regretted it at all. There is a romantic notion there though that if Alto didn't feel completely comfortable of then he really probably shouldn't have, and if that were the case, then Sheryl might feel a little betrayed. Thus, I may suggest that the real moral quandary here is actually in Alto potentially betraying his own feelings. Either he did so with the right feelings, or he did so because he didn't want to hurt Sheryl's feelings by saying no. We can be pretty sure of Sheryl's feelings on this matter.

Wow, okay, this is complicated. Now I'm not sure about this, maybe Alto was doomed. I think putting it short he just needed to be honest with her about his feelings, see what her real feelings were, and then go from there.

Alto never expressed his feelings to her aloud. He was probably called the "worst" because he left her thinking it was out of sympathy. Not to mention Sheryl was really emotionally vulnerable and you could look at him taking advantage of this (or her taking advantage of his kindness, but it seemed that he initiated it), without a verbal compromise and reassurance of love.

Originally Posted by karice67

'Blame' definitely isn't the word to use.

It might be interesting to consider, however, if there is something that either Alto or Sheryl (or even both) might regret about how the night played out, especially considering the line from your post that I've bolded.

But I've got another translation to do, so that should be it from me...at least for now.

You put it in words better than I did.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by karice67

It might be interesting to consider, however, if there is something that either Alto or Sheryl (or even both) might regret about how the night played out, especially considering the line from your post that I've bolded.

Not seeing it.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by karice67

'Blame' definitely isn't the word to use.

It might be interesting to consider, however, if there is something that either Alto or Sheryl (or even both) might regret about how the night played out, especially considering the line from your post that I've bolded.

While episode 22 had me jumping in joy, I will have to agree that episode 24 is where Alto and Sheryl reached an understanding.

Though I highly doubt they regretted it, since I believe they both needed mutual comforting at the moment, and certainly did enjoy the days that ensued.

Was regretting an option? Certainly! Though that really depended on what Alto was going to say to Sheryl in episode 24, and the little details made it an extremely powerful scene (and a hint in a certain direction). Nonetheless, whether he professed his love or not at the time, it would have, like Sheryl said, kill her concentration on what she needed to do.

- Tak

[BetoJR]

Heck, regrets? I'd regret not having done anything. C'mon, people... sex isn't really the monster people used to make it, now is it? Is it?

[Tak]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Heck, regrets? I'd regret not having done anything. C'mon, people... sex isn't really the monster people used to make it, now is it? Is it?

Oh right, there wasn't a condom, either.

- Tak

[karice67]

Let me try to make what I'm getting at a bit clearer.

"It might be interesting to consider, however, if there is something that either Alto or Sheryl (or even both) might regret about how the night played out."

Sex is just an act, arguably an act of love. But even assuming the same result (i.e. they had sex), what are the different ways they could have reached that result, what emotions/thoughts would Alto and Sheryl have been thinking depending on other little things they might or might not have done/said? And finally, what might that mean for how they felt after that?

I will admit that Sheryl's pov is a lot easier to figure out - hell, it's even represented in the show itself, in both 22 and 23. But I'm still puzzling out Alto's myself.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by karice67

But I'm still puzzling out Alto's myself.

Right, thus the agony that was episode 24

Though that was where I look for the small details, and it was enough for me to believe in a certain way

- Tak

[magnuskn]

I guess it's good that I had reached a 110% certainty on the outcome of the triangle long before movie two aired. ^^ Makes puzzling out Altos emotions quite a bit easier.