AnimeSuki Forums

EroKing · 2012-01-25, 08:29

Just use the Report button and the mods/admins will look into it.

Quote:

1.2 Do not insult or harass other members
Insults, harassment, flaming, trolling, baiting or other similar abusive behaviour towards other members of The Forum will not be tolerated. This includes the use of "retort images". Images used to convey a "come back" message (i.e. to "retort") are forbidden in all areas of The Forum, they are often offensive and only serve to ignite flame wars.

2.1 Do not post nonsense
You are not required to reply to every single thread and post in a forum. Please only reply if you have something useful to add to the thread. Posts such as "I agree", "OK" and "Me too" are all considered nonsense. If you do not have anything helpful to say in a thread or you do not know the answer to a question, please do not post simply to say that you do not have anything to say or that you do not know the answer the question. Posting just to "bump" a thread (i.e. move it to the top of the forum) is also considered nonsense.

Combining those two rules you get your solution. Coming up with additional specific measures against those breaking the already well-established rules is not needed imo.

felix · 2012-01-25, 08:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by hyl

Also i find it kind of odd that you are making this petition.

I can recall a similar situation a few months ago in the guilty crown thread (when it did not have it's own sub forum), that you were making lot's rants about some episodes yourself.
Some people also find your rants somewhat distracting from the topic back then (most of the time the similar complaints how bad Shuu was as a main character or the plot itself).
So how is this situation different from yours in the guilty crown general discussion topic back then?

Like I said... the overly negative rants polarize the discussion. The so called rants you speak of was just me addressing people who asked me about it. I was even pm'ed by people demanding I TAKE a position on the show, even though I was merely neutral (ie. didn't care for the hate nor didn't see the love) and only answering because people were going out of their way to get answers out of me. Also the so called people "I ranted with" I redirected to pm and had the conversation there and as far as I know the so called rant was over and done in 1/2 pms with both of us agreeing on certain points. You can ask an admin to verify the logs if you want. I don't want to play the victim; if it means my own views would get axed in some thread I'm fine with it.

And some of you who reponded aren't exactly angels yourselves; so let's not go there.

Archon_Wing · 2012-01-25, 08:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by felix

If these rant posts can't justify their own topic then how can you say they justify 2-3 pages of a thread (if not more) and in series thread how do they justify being re-discussed every episode? If they justify appearing episode after episode and if we value the opinion of the one/two posters who have only negative things to say then why is a thread dedicated to their re-accuring view not justified?

Well, you simply can't take posts in isolation and judge them by that. Sure, they may or may not be able to sustain their own topic, but that doesn't matter.

And like I said before. If it doesn't justify being rediscussed per episode, then it's a cyclical topic that can be subject to moderation if the poster is deliberately doing it.

And I will ask you. What's the point of developing its own thread? Why does it deserve its own thread. So people with like minds can just agree with each other? Not much of a point there. Shall we separate every single episode thread into "Fluff" and "srs bzness" threads? Because that would be what it ends up.

And as I've already stated before. Negative only threads cannot work alone. There are already many of those, and they all are very low content.

It's where the praise clashes with the bashing where readers can view the input and make the decision for themselves that matters. It shouldn't be the place of anyone else to dictate what to think, or where to organize it.

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Do these very volite topics justify being in a thread where the majority of posters would simply disagree with them? Why is it worse for them being in sections where the views would be moderate. You say it I'm trying to protect casuals, I say we're giving too much power to people randomly stirring topics in inapropriate context.

Because then we'll be stuck with arbitrary distinctions with who's a moderate. And that simply is too restrictive with mods having to examine each and every post. Too complex... when existing tools can do the same thing.

I consider myself a pretty moderate poster. I'm sure not everyone thinks that. I'm not sure what the mods would think. I don't want to know, tbh.

I should be able to post my thoughts wherever I want as long as it is on topic, without fear that I'll be whisked away because the mods have decided I am too good and move me up to Masters Hater League thread while demoting someone who disagrees with me to Platinum Fan League thread. Hmm... Automated Matchmaking for forum debates sounds interesting.

I just made too many negative posts, now I've been moved out of my division.

Overall, I can't see how this system will work. That would require either posters to self-mod themselves in the right spot, and let's be honest-- everyone THINKS they are reasonable and moderate. And so we have to leave it up to the mods, and break the thread's cohesion when posts are being moved around.

And exactly how does someone stirring a topic gain power? They can spam the thread? That's moddable? They keep trying to stir the discussion on the rail? Well, nothing an ignore list can handle.

Someone outspoken has as much power as you give them.

hyl · 2012-01-25, 08:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by felix

And some of you who reponded aren't exactly angels yourselves; so let's not go there.

Well, we aren't starting a topic that makes us somewhat hypocritical and makes the topic less credible

Anyways seeing that you also have a neutral view on this, then i would say that the arguments on the first page for this petition are definitely not neutral at all and are shortly summarized as this:

- the majority of the people (in your case: fans) have no interests in reading the rants, so rants are off topic in their opinion.
- rants polarizes the discussion and leads to possible flame wars or something else.
- there is no point in complaining, because a show is what it is.
- rants are insulting to the fanbase

All of these arguments simply suggests that the fans can't accept criticism and that haters should stay out of their topic and rant somewhere else (like in your suggestion a separate topic or doing that in blogs).That's sounds like pure censorship to me.
You claim not to target critics or discussion on the flaws, but your example of using Reckoner actually says otherwise. His rant was purely based on his critical view of the flaws of that episode and the serie itself.

Also how can you start such a biased petition, while you are actually neutral on this?

Flower · 2012-01-25, 09:01

With absolutely no offense or disrespect intended, to be honest it seems what the OP is essentially asking for is some kind of "underground storage chamber for self-flagellation" where people can go to deliberately stir the pot, "entrollificate", or be as rude and nasty as they want with each other. Or something similar to that....

I have been on other forums where they have such "places" as this and where it may "fit", but I think that it would not work here at animesuki ... as EroKing rightly pointed out, it says in the rules that:

Quote:

1.2 Do not insult or harass other members

Insults, harassment, flaming, trolling, baiting or other similar abusive behaviour towards other members of The Forum will not be tolerated. This includes the use of "retort images". Images used to convey a "come back" message (i.e. to "retort") are forbidden in all areas of The Forum, they are often offensive and only serve to ignite flame wars.

2.1 Do not post nonsense

You are not required to reply to every single thread and post in a forum. Please only reply if you have something useful to add to the thread. Posts such as "I agree", "OK" and "Me too" are all considered nonsense. If you do not have anything helpful to say in a thread or you do not know the answer to a question, please do not post simply to say that you do not have anything to say or that you do not know the answer the question. Posting just to "bump" a thread (i.e. move it to the top of the forum) is also considered nonsense.

In forums rules as such are primarily carried out by the mods and admins - that is their job, of course. But the rules are also in place to encourage and help create an atmosphere as well.

To create a separate space where people can go and behave in such a way that goes against those principles and/or the atmosphere in general would be a disservice to the ... err ... ambiance (?) of the forum community as a whole, even if it were (no, especially if it were!) an area that the mods would turn more of a blind eye to % wise.

Between the report button, using the steps Archon_Wing spelled out early on in the thread, and above all everyone making individual efforts to set a better personal example would be the best methods for "fire prevention" (or whatever someone might want to call it) in my opinion....

Marcus H. · 2012-01-25, 10:12

Quote:

"underground storage chamber for self-flagellation" where people can go to deliberately stir the pot, "entrollificate", or be as rude and nasty as they want with each other.

I think there's somewhere outside this community that already fits into this description.
In fact, it even has the advantage of anonymity.

Triple_R · 2012-01-25, 10:23

While I respect the AS member who started this thread, I largely disagree with him on what he is proposing, and I think it's important for me to elaborate why, because I think it touches on key philosophical differences on how some of us view Anime Suki as a whole. Discussing such differences on how AS members view Anime Suki is probably good for this site and its community, so that we can all have a better understanding of what each of us wants this site to be.

Now my impression is that felix's view on Anime Suki is that series threads and series subforums are first and foremost for fans of those respective series. Now if I agreed with felix's view here, I might fully agree with what he's proposing in this thread. However, I don't agree with felix's view here.

My view, which I think is shared by a lot of members on this site (even if it's only at an implicit level), is very different. I think that the entirety of Anime Suki (including all of its series threads and series subforums) are for all anime fans who are members here, not just fans of one specific series. Let me elaborate on what precisely I mean by this.

The Ano Natsu series thread isn't just for fans of Ano Natsu in particular. It's for all anime fans who are members of the AS community.

A lot of us here on this site approach anime the same way that movie aficionados approach movies. In other words, we watch a lot of different anime titles as we want to see a full range of what the anime world has to offer. We often like to compare and contrast one anime to another. We are moreso fans of anime as a whole (as a genre, or a medium) than fans of specific shows. That's not to say that we don't have our favorite shows, but rather that we don't focus most of our time on just a handful of titles that we like.

Now just as movie aficionados don't like every movie that they end up watching, a lot of us anime aficionados don't like every anime we end up watching. But because we're anime aficionados, we're going to watch a lot of different anime shows, especially ones that gain a lot of attention from the anime fan community as a whole. And also because we're anime aficionados, we're going to give most anime shows we watch at least the good 'ol three episode try. So that means that for an anime aficionado on this site that is deeply disappointed by a particular show, you'll probably see at least a few weeks of him or her heavily critiquing the show (Nostalgia Critic style, in some cases ).

Now I think it's reasonable to expect a person who's been consistently hating a show since Episode 1 or 2 to drop the show at some point. At some point, continuing to stick around and heavily critique a show week-by-week, on a forum like this one, does seem a bit masochistic and counterproductive to good conversations (since there's only so many times you can raise the same criticisms over and over again before they start to seem stale).

But this point is well after a mere three episodes, and that's all we're at so far in Ano Natsu.

Ultimately, this sort of consistent week-by-week heavy critiquing almost always sorts itself out (with one exception, which I'll get to in a bit). Eventually, people will drop shows that they are consistently disliking/hating (key example given the specific example raised by felix in the OP: Reckoner is no longer watching Guilty Crown to the best of my knowledge), leaving only fans of that particular show left posting on it. I would argue that this can create a very different problem of "all-praise all-the-time" that's not terribly more useful than all-criticism all-the-time, but I digress.

The one exception to this is when you have a viewer who was enjoying the show a lot for a decent string of episodes, but then the show made a big change mid-stream, and the viewer who was really liking the show before that shift is very displeased with that shift. When that happens, the show's fanbase as a whole is likely to get polarized (I've seen this with Shakugan no Shana, Haruhi 2009, Ore no Imouto, Hanasaku Iroha, and a few other shows), and that's just the way it is. A show making a big content/tonal/artistic shift will inevitably have this result. If I'm watching a show for the action scenes and you're watching the same show for the dialogue, and suddenly its 50/50 ratio between the two elements shifts to almost nothing but dialogue, it's only normal that I'm now very displeased with the show whereas you're still loving it since you're getting more of what you love about it.

So when shifts like this happen, you're going to get weekly critical posts right to the bitter end, as people have already invested a lot of time in a show that they thought they were going to like and were in fact liking for a long time. Because these people invested a lot of time in a show, I think they have a right to see it through to the end, and continue to voice their displeasure with whatever the big shift was (i.e. a lot more fanservice than before, a lot less action scenes than before, the artwork gets K-Onified, Kyon can't get out of that blasted time loop, etc...).

So, that's my overall take on the issue. I'd love to know what my fellow AS members think of it.

felix · 2012-01-25, 10:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by hyl

You claim not to target critics or discussion on the flaws, but your example of using Reckoner actually says otherwise. His rant was purely based on his critical view of the flaws of that episode and the serie itself.

What's point is he making by repeating it? It's essentially double posting with episode number changed from 1 to 2 and 2 to 3 and so forth. He is not discussing anything new like say what was good this episode, just rephrasing what he already said, and what we already know he thinks of it.

Spoiler for Quotes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reckoner

This show is flat out terrible.

Everything from the space alien ship at the very beginning to the end was just so so wrong. Yeah, you heard me, 95% of this episode was extremely poor.

Too many cooks spoil the broth.

Who in the world thought that meshing together a romantic comedy with a sentimental melodrama and a tinge of misused sci-fi with these character was a good idea?

Everything just worked against each other, the pieces just don't fit. All the jokes and little funny things that were presented to us were dead on arrival. One reason was the execution seemed a little off, but the atmosphere of a sentimental melodrama just utterly killed the comedy... And guess what? Most of the episode consisted of things that were very romcom in nature.

And then at the end when they finally want to bring in the drama it just utterly falls flat no matter the execution because most of the episode has created a very bad cognitive dissonance.

Lets not mention the fact that for whatever reason we are going to use the plot of some alien enrolling in a school as a "cute" girl who apparently is going to try her best to act like humans. Seriously this plot line is ridiculously absurd and maybe it would've fit in with the atmosphere of a romcom, but NOoooooooo.... We had to use the atmosphere of a sentimental drama! Wait what? You want me to laugh at just how silly everything is but take it seriously at the same time?

Sorry, that is not how my brain processes things.

Worst premiere of the season. Send this back to the drawing board JC staff, 2/10.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reckoner

And people wonder why I was complaining last episode about cognitive dissonance.

------------

Anyways another episode of Ano Natsu, another episode reveled in failure. Again, the mood of the show is just not clashing very well with its romcom elements.

I really, really hate how she just moves in with the main character in this episode to force a stupid premise. The sister luckily got the hell off the freaking screen because boy was she annoying and stupid.

This main character is extremely flat and uninteresting. He has no personality or identity. He doesn't seem to really want anything, though he's attracted to red head big boobs. I guess moe moe aliens are moe after all. So long as she's around, all viewers attention will be placed on her right? I sincerely hope they don't expect me to get emotional over this main character's upcoming emotional turmoil.

Seriously everything I am seeing from this is just one big mess. The alien sci-fi premise is so weak as well it might as well not exist.

If this show is going where I think it might be going, they could have simply gave the main character a terminal condition instead of this stupidity with space ships crashing into him.

Eh episode was slightly more tolerable than last week, 3/10. Very Bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reckoner

This show's execution continues to be less than impressive. It's funny to me how much the comedy in this tends to miss its mark. Certain things are either too understated, or overdone in presentation. I always get the feeling that they are trying too hard as well... Kind of like "Hey lets throw a joke in these intervals to make the audience laugh." This relaxed atmosphere does not work for this show one bit.

Lemon's character has been quite the eye sore as well. So jammed into your face as an "OMG! I'm a funny character!" Always sounding really confident for no particular reason and messing with the cast in supposedly comical ways, and I just really have to ask why she even is in cast. Obviously she's not even a character at this point. Just a comic relief tool, and a poor one at that since what she does all too predictable and nonsensical. Not to mention the execution problems this show has on the comedy front just does not help this show one bit.

Show so far has a bit of the worthless main protagonist syndrome. No idea at the moment why in the world anyone would have a crush on him, but hey as always, this stuff often does not make sense. Though I guess this cast in general is just very unappealing. The only ones who stand out are the ones who stand out for bad reasons. Nothing really interesting about them.

Overall... There there is some love triangle which hasn't been given much detail, some sentimental thing going on with a video and the main character possibly dieing, and bad comedy. Of course the scifi really hurts it, because it makes the main character relation in this appear quite silly.

Just another bad Ano Natsu episode... 3/10....

He's also addressing the completely wrong people about it. If I want to know what's wrong with the industry this year, or whats the worst anime of who knows when I would go find the appropriate thread in General Anime. The reason why anyone goes to the series thread is to find what's good about a show, what the show is about, and what people are discussing.

This is essentially going and talking about your love of meet products in the vegetarian convention or talking about manga/novels in the anime-only discussion. It's just with out purpose and can only go wrong.

What could possibly be the "good" result of such posts? People start agreeing with him and turn the thread into a ranting archive: "the 1001 things wrong with series XXX"? I can't think of any good thing that would come of it, and past incidents would indicate nothing good comes of it; you just can't hope for proper discussion in that context on that topic. At best it's just annoying.

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Originally Posted by hyl

Also how can you start such a biased petition, while you are actually neutral on this?

What? I'm not neutral one it. I said I was neutral in the debate you accused me of ranting. You're confused.

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Originally Posted by Demi.

It's not the fault of the negative poster if a flame war is incited. Other posters should accept those opinions and move on... Or debate with them in disagreement. But it's their own fault if it turns into a flame war. Not all negative posts are productive, obviously. However, the OP sure picked a terrible quote to make a point with, if he wanted to get the point across.

It's probably the best example. Drama hasn't settled in yet around it and it still the same tale tale signs. If I gave an extreme example then one could just argue that it's just something the moderators weren't notified for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Well, you simply can't take posts in isolation and judge them by that. Sure, they may or may not be able to sustain their own topic, but that doesn't matter.

First off, threads are merely a collection of sub-topics related to the topic. The series threads in particular since they are essentially the central hub of discussing the anime in question. Secondly the posts in question are presented as "self-sustained" views, so YES they can (or SHOULD) be able to stand alone as a topic; otherwise they do not serve the purpose they are suggesting they serve; which raises the question what are they doing? other then stirring up the fanbase.

If they were replies to other people, then yes. But they aren't. They're just this sansationalist views that rival the news media. If they can justify their existance, they can justify their existance in another thread; and everyone would be better off (including the people posting them).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

And like I said before. If it doesn't justify being rediscussed per episode, then it's a cyclical topic that can be subject to moderation if the poster is deliberately doing it.

The problem: the motion never passes! You can report as many as you like, it just never seems to pass even when whole thread goes to hell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

And I will ask you. What's the point of developing its own thread? Why does it deserve its own thread. So people with like minds can just agree with each other? Not much of a point there. Shall we separate every single episode thread into "Fluff" and "srs bzness" threads? Because that would be what it ends up.

No. Precisely so people who both might agree or disagree with the view can discuss it. Placing such views in the series thread is just asking for everyone to disagree with you. How is that a discussion? And it's not like they don't know this, since this is not exactly an isolated issue; and you all know it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

And as I've already stated before. Negative only threads cannot work alone. There are already many of those, and they all are very low content.

If negative threads don't work, then negative topics don't work. That just means negative topics are useless, how does that justify having negative topics in otherwise mdoerate topics? Why we would want them in the normal topics. It's asking to derail it.

If a topic of religion is bad, then talking about the topic of religion in some other thread is also bad.

If a topic of moe is bad then talking about moe in another thread is bad.

If the topic of value of genres is bad then talking about it in another topic is also bad.

Esentially what you're implying is that somehow, injecting a flame topic in normal topic is okey? even though if it had a thread it would have to be closed imediatly. How exactly does that make any sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

It's where the praise clashes with the bashing where readers can view the input and make the decision for themselves that matters. It shouldn't be the place of anyone else to dictate what to think, or where to organize it.

I find praise only comes into play when people need to go into defense mode because of the unnecesary bashing in a show. So the problem only exists when you got the overly negative element in there. Take it out and nobody feels the need to explicity state it in a giant wall of text because everyone understands the same thing.

And about people forming their own views. I went to the thread in the example only to find the signs of war brewing. I don't feel informed at all, and I don't feel welcome, nor do I feel like I want to waste my time going to a thread to listen to people crying. Also, I don't see how people trying really really damn hard to insert into my head every possible way a show could be wrong and how I need to despise it is constructive and/or useful to the topic. The series topic I mean.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Because then we'll be stuck with arbitrary distinctions with who's a moderate. And that simply is too restrictive with mods having to examine each and every post. Too complex... when existing tools can do the same thing.

I don't know why it's so hard: if you repeat yourself over and over on how you despise everything about a show your posts get moved/removed. Simple. Nobody gets posts delete, nobody gets banned, etc.

Those of us that want to actually discuss things or debate flaws and not re-iterrate or drive people into hating everything about a show then don't have to suffer the silly restrictions, locks and ban-warnings that inevitably happen. And also don't have to suffer the accusations by fellow fans of "being haters" and things like that because of other people trying to stir up shit.

It's so simple.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

I consider myself a pretty moderate poster. I'm sure not everyone thinks that. I'm not sure what the mods would think. I don't want to know, tbh.

I should be able to post my thoughts wherever I want as long as it is on topic, without fear that I'll be whisked away because the mods have decided I am too good and move me up to Masters Hater League thread while demoting someone who disagrees with me to Platinum Fan League thread. Hmm... Automated Matchmaking for forum debates sounds interesting.

I just made too many negative posts, now I've been moved out of my division.

Overall, I can't see how this system will work. That would require either posters to self-mod themselves in the right spot, and let's be honest-- everyone THINKS they are reasonable and moderate. And so we have to leave it up to the mods, and break the thread's cohesion when posts are being moved around.

And exactly how does someone stirring a topic gain power? They can spam the thread? That's moddable? They keep trying to stir the discussion on the rail? Well, nothing an ignore list can handle.

Someone outspoken has as much power as you give them.

I'm not the one GIVING it. If I could fix it by simply something I do alone I wouldn't bother writing a petition. But like you I want to be able to at least post in a damn thread what I want to say with out fearing to get banned because some idiot made a complete mokery of the topic and disrepected all the fans in it and now you can't talk about anything with out the entire thread going into nuclear war.

You also seem to misunderstand something. I'm not suggesting an anology to the Spoiler Policy. YOU would not get banned from the topic! Only over the top rants would; and there would be no consequences, they would just be moved/removed (NO INFRACTIONS). So basically you post a rant. It gets moved to another topic or removed. You are free to try again and be more subtle. Fail and it gets removed again, and you can try again, etc. Nobody gets angry, the topic stays nice and friendly. Everyone is free to discuss everything with out the need of locks, or censoring certain topics or useless meta debaes. Win-Win.

How is this not in your favor. Tell me why this is bad? Why do you need to have the right to incide flame wars?? Why is that the only way to have a discussion or discuss those topics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flower

With absolutely no offense or disrespect intended, to be honest it seems what the OP is essentially asking for is some kind of "underground storage chamber for self-flagellation" where people can go to deliberately stir the pot, "entrollificate", or be as rude and nasty as they want with each other. Or something similar to that....

No, I'm asking for discussion to take place in appropriate places. I don't understand where you all are comming from with this notion that "the discussion can only happen in the ONE place on the entire forum where it will piss people off and be heavily sided".

I'm personally not really moved by these shallow accusation and labels you are trying to throw at me as a person in hopes of bypassing what the petition is actually saying. I even expected some them; hence the options in the poll.

[edit]

@Triple_R

Well. I agree with your view, but the petition is mostly focusing on the physical problem, rather then the philosophical problem. Thread locks and things like this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by rules

As of Episode 08, any mention of the "childish" nature of the character designs will be treated as being off-topic and depending on the severity of the post warnings or infractions could be issued.

...should not have to happen. What the petition tries to do is stop threads going there not stop you from discussing. (See explanation to Archon_Wing above)

Liddo-kun · 2012-01-25, 10:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by felix

You also seem to misunderstand something. I'm not suggesting an anology to the Spoiler Policy. YOU would not get banned the topic! Only over the top rants would; and there would be no consequences, they would just be moved/removed (NO INFRACTIONS). So basically you post a rant. It gets moved to another topic or removed. You are free to try again and be more subtle. Fail and it gets removed again, and you can try again, etc. Nobody gets angry, the topic stays nice and friendly. Everyone is free to discuss everything with out the need of locks, or censoring certain topics or useless meta debaes. Win-Win.

Referring to the part of your post that I put in bold.

How is everyone "free to discuss everything" when people aren't allowed to complain on episodes they didn't like?

Having a post removed again and again (simply because it is a rant) until it becomes acceptable?
That's too much censorship.

felix · 2012-01-25, 11:11

How is people simply complaining a "discussion"? I can see it the other way, but I dunno about simply complaing being a discussion by default. A complain doesn't imply reason, judgement or otherwise from the person complaining. It's no different then calling whining a discussion.

Maybe I'm misreading your post and by complain you mean something else entirely?

If you want to complain then make it a discussion. Which means: you are not just gonna shit on the series in the process or make generic broad claims that could just as well apply to anything, or throw some generic labels and sly remakrs (ie. moe, childish, etc)... and most importantly if your "discussion" doesn't get off the ground you won't constantly repeat it over and over if you have nothing to add to your previous post. And if you have something to add, obviously you wouldn't repeat the previous points.

A discussion can have some complaining in it, sure. But a complaint =/= discussion. I can even give you a sign of when its wrong: if you can't even name what the "best part about it" is in your arguments, ie. "it is bad, because the best part about it is XXX" then you aren't discussing or assesing or judging anything but simply throwing out labels with out actual arguments. Of course that's just an example, but ideally there should be some comparison to something and not just ranting for the sake of ranting and venting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liddo-kun

Having a post removed again and again (simply because it is a rant) until it becomes acceptable?
That's too much censorship.

I disagree. Even though it's removed, you can post, and you are not punished.

Currently in the examples I gave you, you either can't post, or are severly punished for it. Also, you get to suffer countless accusations from other posters. I would rather have my posts removed and have to rephrase them if by chance I was out of line then deal with the awkwardness of the current system.

hyl · 2012-01-25, 11:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by felix

What's point is he making by repeating it? It's essentially double posting with episode number changed from 1 to 2 and 2 to 3 and so forth. He is not discussing anything new like say what was good this episode, just rephrasing what he already said, and what we already know he thinks of it.

He's also addressing the completely wrong people about it. If I want to know what's wrong with the industry this year, or whats the worst anime of who knows when I would go find the appropriate thread in General Anime. The reason why anyone goes to the series thread is to find what's good about a show, what the show is about, and what people are discussing.

Well of course he is not discussing something new if he still thinks that the current episode still has the same problems as the previous one. Like in your case, you were complaining several weeks that Shuu was still useless as a main character and that the plot and realism was also still bad in the guilty crown topic.

Also he never actually addressed the issue of the anime industry, but just the combination of the genres seem to work against the serie and the fact that this serie failed to live up to his expectations based on it's genre. Thus making it an unenjoyable show for him. So i don't think he was addressing the flaws of the shows in the wrong topic

Quote:

Originally Posted by felix

This is essentially going and talking about your love of meet products in the vegetarian convention or talking about manga/novels in the anime-only discussion. It's just with out purpose and can only go wrong.

That comparison is wrong, in his case it's just cognitive dissonance (which he even used in his rant about episode 2). For the people who have no idea what it means, just look it up on googe >_>

Quote:

Originally Posted by felix

What could possibly be the "good" result of such posts? People start agreeing with him and turn the thread into a ranting archive: "the 1001 things wrong with series XXX"? I can't think of any good thing that would come of it, and past incidents would indicate nothing good comes of it; you just can't hope for proper discussion in that context on that topic. At best it's just annoying.

There is a flaw with this statement.
If lot's of people start agreeing with him, then this show probably has those problems. Then there is a point in discussing this.
This annoyance that you are talking about seems to be some kind of lack of tolerance against criticism for the show.

Quote:

Originally Posted by felix

What? I'm not neutral one it. I said I was neutral in the debate you accused me of ranting. You're confused.

Ok that means even bigger problems if you meant your neutrality for guilty crown

Quote:

Originally Posted by felix

Like I said... the overly negative rants polarize the discussion. The so called rants you speak of was just me addressing people who asked me about it. I was even pm'ed by people demanding I TAKE a position on the show, even though I was merely neutral (ie. didn't care for the hate nor didn't see the love) and only answering because people were going out of their way to get answers out of me.

I really doubt that statements like these are neutral for guilty crown.

Quote:

Originally Posted by felix

The biggest problem here is this is a mecha show. Though it's pacing is that of a sci-fi drama. Mecha shows tend to have the easiest formula when it comes to asserting the importance of the protagonist: you just have a overarching doom-plot for which the protagonist is either the key or the only-key to ending it, then you just throw danger after danger under cricumstances where he's about to die but somehow gets out. GC doesn't do that. Shu is never in danger or the key to anything, he's essentially just a bio-weapon with a love interest. The funeral parlor are the key to the problem, they are the ones with their necks on the chopping block when shit hits the fan. So what does that leave us with? The daily life of Shu? Is it even surprising many aren't pleased with how it's going...

Quote:

Originally Posted by felix

I dislike it, therefore I write about why I dislike it; just as you write about why you like it. It's not like I'm hating on it, though I don't deny hating how some things are handled in it, that's still a valid way of expressing an opinion.

Many of us don't feel forced to like it by those expressing positive opinions so I don't understand why you both feel you need to take this meta-defensive stance to protect yourselvs from ours. It's like I'm not allowed to dislike the current progress just because you liked every bit of it. Get a damn grip people! Your opinion is not some shared resource, it's yours, and I can't really do anything about it even if I try.

Also, it's not like those of us that are still here have abandoned all hope of the show becoming anything good, or just hate everything about it. I think it's pretty unanymous that the show has top notch animation quality and really nice aesthetics (overall). And at least and some potential to drag it's plot back up.

And honestly who cares about what demographic it's aimed at? I never watched anything in my life because it had some sticker with my age on it. Not anime or anything else. Politically correct content be damned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by felix

Hence my point. Everything he does is barely of any real consequence. The pen has more power then Shu himself at this point. It's hard to care for the character when he's just being dragged by his feet into the world and only makes any sort of ripple on it every now and then in short bursts. It's like I'm watching two shows in one. One is about political/rebel conflict of GHQ and Funeral Parlor, messed up Japan, etc. And another is about Shu's daily life as honorary sulking Merry Sue. No fun.

To be honest characters like him "this doesn't involve me, this is crazy, I need to protect my ass" just piss me off. Characters like Saji in 00 or Flay in SEED, they can just drop dead for all I care. Shu's only excuse at this point is "he's a school boy blah-blah" but from the looks of it the Funeral Parlor are the same age too, heck that little kid was even younger—not that Shu gave a damn. So then what excuse does that leave Shu with? If he was non-sulky but just didn't want to take orders from Gai and the others, the character would have been more interesting; as well as original.

Well it's interesting, but it's not very intriguing. I mean what consequence does that have on everything else that's happening? The funeral parlor people don't care. GHQ certeinly doesn't care. Plot wise it won't make any damn difference, just give Shu more to sulk over, woohoo; probably will result in a ton of useless monolog and flashbacks too. The fact they're hiding it all too well is also problematic. You know "show, don't tell" kinda implies you better make sure people actually see it when you show it, no point in having some hidden object puzzle in the dialog.

Think of it another way. If it wasn't there would it make negative difference? Nope. It's only saving grace is that is somewhat implies Shu met Inori already, which moves the love plot. Shu meeting Gai, completely useless. Worse still I blame it for the inconsistent semi-crappy emotionless dialog we got between Shu and Gai so far. I don't really like being some Enigma machine just because the writers couldn't figure out how to setup their story straight with out injecting code into the dialog.

And many more, but i would be flooding this topic by quoting more.

felix · 2012-01-25, 11:26

I don't see the problem. Like I said if people thought it was out of line then I'd rather have them removed and have to rephrase them. If you think I was reponsible for the locks and other things and I know some people would point the finger at them then all the better example: YES I would rather have to rephrase then deal with the meta discussion and/or accusations.

I don't see the problem. I did not go to the thread to preach my views. I went to share them. If I shared them in a way that stirred up shit then I more then willing to rephrase them. What's the problem here!? Surely it's not a issue for the people who had a problem with my views if they are removed and I rephrase them.

Also, on the me being neutral thing, please make up your mind! Are you accusing me of being neutral on the petition or the GC thread? I already told you, I refused to take sides on GC, so to this day I am neutral on GC, and I /sign'ed on the petition. You keep going from one to the other and getting confused.

hyl · 2012-01-25, 11:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by felix

I don't see the problem. Like I said if people thought it was out of line then I'd rather have them removed and have to rephrase them. If you think I was reponsible for the locks and other things and I know some people would point the finger at them then all the better example: YES I would rather have to rephrase then deal with the meta discussion and/or accusations.

I don't see the problem. I did not go to the thread to preach my views. I went to share them. If I shared them in a way that stirred up shit then I more then willing to rephrase them. What's the problem!? Surely it's not a issue for the people who had a problem with my views if they are removed and I rephrase them.

Those small sample of your rants against guilty crown that i quoted technically don't look very different from reckoner's rants. As those rants discuss about the flaws of the 2 shows.
So you are saying that you have no problems with the rants that you have posted about guilty crown, while you find it unacceptable that others like reckoner rants about Ano Natsu?
Oh, by the way your rants on guilty crown did stir up a few pages of discussion.

felix · 2012-01-25, 11:30

Your point? I never said I'm some angel, flawless being.

hyl · 2012-01-25, 11:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by felix

Your point? I never said I'm some angel, flawless being.

This is not a point of being flawless yourself, but a matter of hypocrisy of the person who started this topic which causes a lack of credibility for this petition.

Skyfall · 2012-01-25, 11:37

I'm sure all of us have been in the situation where someone dismisses (or downright dislikes) the same positive qualities of a show that makes us love it, and remember the bitter feeling said opinion can leave behind. Someone seeing negatives where you see positives can be a tough negotiation table to sit around indeed.

However, that is not a reason to essentially "ban" negative opinions on series altogether. AnimeSuki is a discussion forum (I'm sure you've heard that one before), and we welcome all opinions on a subject, be them agreeable or disagreeable with the subject at hand, so long as said opinions are expressed with the same general courtesy we demand from all communication done on the forum.

That doesn't mean everything is allowed either, and if someone seems to be posting with an only goal to aggravate the discussion at hand, feel free to report said posts - we will look in to it, as always, and if we indeed can determine the behavior and posting pattern as such, we will take action against it. The mere fact of having a continuously low opinion on something doesn't necessarily amount to what I described above (which would essentially be trolling) however, nor does seeing flaws where an other sees quality (a subjective thing by all means) make said stance a less legit one.

Which is why any such potential cases are to be reviewed on a case-by-case basis, rather than have global policies implemented to discourage negative opinions over something in general, never mind actually combating them.

This, regretfully, means that you are prone to meet opinions that run counter to your own, heavily even. Such is the nature of online communication and sharing of opinions, and the hard part to realize is that said opinions aren't any more "wrong" or "improper" than your own. While we can only dream of a day where all anime is a universal masterpiece that appeals to everyone and summons only positive response, sadly we are not there yet - and as such, have to live with stances that cross ours on an open discussion floor.

Fansites exist there for a reason - to serve as a gathering place for people who share the same enthusiasm on the specific subject at question. AnimeSuki, however, is not a fansite. It is a discussion forum that unifies people by our overall interest in anime, not out of agreement on any specific anime at hand. And while truly enjoying a show one feels inclined to post about can be seen as a good trait indeed, that isn't a requirement for participating in the conversation here, nor is it a measure we would ever segregate members by.

Which is why artificial barriers for entry in a discussion will not exist on AnimeSuki, it runs counter to the very idea of this site being an umbrella where all anime fans can gather under. I'm sorry that some pushing and poking happens occasionally, but that doesn't mean we will prevent people from trying to wrestle their own spot under the overall cover altogether, based on a X level of devotion criteria.

Indeed, polarized opinions or even polarized fanbases happen, but their entire separation is not on the table. Never mind to the extremes of having separate threads for both [Positive] and [Negative] opinions, that is, frankly, a fairly ridiculous idea and would serve as a festering ground for mutual animosity and even bigger rifts between said opinions, not to mention a stage ripe for trolling by the other "side".

I apologize if that's not what some would want to hear, but the purpose of AnimeSuki is not to safeguard you against opinions that you wouldn't wish to hear. Fansites are there for that reason, but the doors of AnimeSuki are open to everyone (at first), not just the dedicated fans of a series. Turning some form of an opinion into an official second class citizen won't happen.

TL;DR: If there seems to be an issue brewing, report it, and it will be dealt with to the best of our abilities. I'm sorry if the forum's staff sometimes doesn't see things completely your way, but sadly we have yet to find a way to please everyone (though we are trying!), and have our own standards we adhere to, which has shaped AnimeSuki in to what it is today.

I thank everyone for posting their opinions on the subject, but I'm afraid the thread is going to be closed - the original proposal simply isn't on the discussion table.

White Manju Bun · 2012-01-25, 11:43

Members have the right to post there views about series they like and don't like. As long as the post follows the rules there is no set rule saying you "must like said show to post in this thread." Obviously when someone crosses the line into flaming, baiting and what not that is against the rules then a mod will step in. This is why we have a Report button since mods can't be everywhere.

If you don't like someone's repeated opinion on a show, we also have the Ignore feature.

This is a discussion community. All types of discussion are welcome, positive and negative again as long as it follows the rules. Banning any type of negative discussion wouldn't progress this community since it's part of life. If you don't like it, again use the ignore feature. If you think it goes beyond whats allowed, report it and let the mods handle it.

Edit: Ninja'd by Sky!

View Poll Results: Petition
/sign	1	9.09%
Against	7	63.64%
Neutral	3	27.27%
Voters: 11. You may not vote on this poll

2012-01-25, 10:23	Link #27
Triple_R Senior Member Author Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Newfoundland, Canada Age: 42	While I respect the AS member who started this thread, I largely disagree with him on what he is proposing, and I think it's important for me to elaborate why, because I think it touches on key philosophical differences on how some of us view Anime Suki as a whole. Discussing such differences on how AS members view Anime Suki is probably good for this site and its community, so that we can all have a better understanding of what each of us wants this site to be. Now my impression is that felix's view on Anime Suki is that series threads and series subforums are first and foremost for fans of those respective series. Now if I agreed with felix's view here, I might fully agree with what he's proposing in this thread. However, I don't agree with felix's view here. My view, which I think is shared by a lot of members on this site (even if it's only at an implicit level), is very different. I think that the entirety of Anime Suki (including all of its series threads and series subforums) are for all anime fans who are members here, not just fans of one specific series. Let me elaborate on what precisely I mean by this. The Ano Natsu series thread isn't just for fans of Ano Natsu in particular. It's for all anime fans who are members of the AS community. A lot of us here on this site approach anime the same way that movie aficionados approach movies. In other words, we watch a lot of different anime titles as we want to see a full range of what the anime world has to offer. We often like to compare and contrast one anime to another. We are moreso fans of anime as a whole (as a genre, or a medium) than fans of specific shows. That's not to say that we don't have our favorite shows, but rather that we don't focus most of our time on just a handful of titles that we like. Now just as movie aficionados don't like every movie that they end up watching, a lot of us anime aficionados don't like every anime we end up watching. But because we're anime aficionados, we're going to watch a lot of different anime shows, especially ones that gain a lot of attention from the anime fan community as a whole. And also because we're anime aficionados, we're going to give most anime shows we watch at least the good 'ol three episode try. So that means that for an anime aficionado on this site that is deeply disappointed by a particular show, you'll probably see at least a few weeks of him or her heavily critiquing the show (Nostalgia Critic style, in some cases ). Now I think it's reasonable to expect a person who's been consistently hating a show since Episode 1 or 2 to drop the show at some point. At some point, continuing to stick around and heavily critique a show week-by-week, on a forum like this one, does seem a bit masochistic and counterproductive to good conversations (since there's only so many times you can raise the same criticisms over and over again before they start to seem stale). But this point is well after a mere three episodes, and that's all we're at so far in Ano Natsu. Ultimately, this sort of consistent week-by-week heavy critiquing almost always sorts itself out (with one exception, which I'll get to in a bit). Eventually, people will drop shows that they are consistently disliking/hating (key example given the specific example raised by felix in the OP: Reckoner is no longer watching Guilty Crown to the best of my knowledge), leaving only fans of that particular show left posting on it. I would argue that this can create a very different problem of "all-praise all-the-time" that's not terribly more useful than all-criticism all-the-time, but I digress. The one exception to this is when you have a viewer who was enjoying the show a lot for a decent string of episodes, but then the show made a big change mid-stream, and the viewer who was really liking the show before that shift is very displeased with that shift. When that happens, the show's fanbase as a whole is likely to get polarized (I've seen this with Shakugan no Shana, Haruhi 2009, Ore no Imouto, Hanasaku Iroha, and a few other shows), and that's just the way it is. A show making a big content/tonal/artistic shift will inevitably have this result. If I'm watching a show for the action scenes and you're watching the same show for the dialogue, and suddenly its 50/50 ratio between the two elements shifts to almost nothing but dialogue, it's only normal that I'm now very displeased with the show whereas you're still loving it since you're getting more of what you love about it. So when shifts like this happen, you're going to get weekly critical posts right to the bitter end, as people have already invested a lot of time in a show that they thought they were going to like and were in fact liking for a long time. Because these people invested a lot of time in a show, I think they have a right to see it through to the end, and continue to voice their displeasure with whatever the big shift was (i.e. a lot more fanservice than before, a lot less action scenes than before, the artwork gets K-Onified, Kyon can't get out of that blasted time loop, etc...). So, that's my overall take on the issue. I'd love to know what my fellow AS members think of it. __________________ Last edited by Triple_R; 2012-01-25 at 10:48.

2012-01-25, 11:26	Link #32
felix sleepyhead Author Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: event horizon	I don't see the problem. Like I said if people thought it was out of line then I'd rather have them removed and have to rephrase them. If you think I was reponsible for the locks and other things and I know some people would point the finger at them then all the better example: YES I would rather have to rephrase then deal with the meta discussion and/or accusations. I don't see the problem. I did not go to the thread to preach my views. I went to share them. If I shared them in a way that stirred up shit then I more then willing to rephrase them. What's the problem here!? Surely it's not a issue for the people who had a problem with my views if they are removed and I rephrase them. Also, on the me being neutral thing, please make up your mind! Are you accusing me of being neutral on the petition or the GC thread? I already told you, I refused to take sides on GC, so to this day I am neutral on GC, and I /sign'ed on the petition. You keep going from one to the other and getting confused. __________________

2012-01-25, 11:30	Link #34
felix sleepyhead Author Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: event horizon	Your point? I never said I'm some angel, flawless being. __________________

2012-01-25, 11:37	Link #36
Skyfall Lost in my dreams... Join Date: Jun 2006 Age: 37	I'm sure all of us have been in the situation where someone dismisses (or downright dislikes) the same positive qualities of a show that makes us love it, and remember the bitter feeling said opinion can leave behind. Someone seeing negatives where you see positives can be a tough negotiation table to sit around indeed. However, that is not a reason to essentially "ban" negative opinions on series altogether. AnimeSuki is a discussion forum (I'm sure you've heard that one before), and we welcome all opinions on a subject, be them agreeable or disagreeable with the subject at hand, so long as said opinions are expressed with the same general courtesy we demand from all communication done on the forum. That doesn't mean everything is allowed either, and if someone seems to be posting with an only goal to aggravate the discussion at hand, feel free to report said posts - we will look in to it, as always, and if we indeed can determine the behavior and posting pattern as such, we will take action against it. The mere fact of having a continuously low opinion on something doesn't necessarily amount to what I described above (which would essentially be trolling) however, nor does seeing flaws where an other sees quality (a subjective thing by all means) make said stance a less legit one. Which is why any such potential cases are to be reviewed on a case-by-case basis, rather than have global policies implemented to discourage negative opinions over something in general, never mind actually combating them. This, regretfully, means that you are prone to meet opinions that run counter to your own, heavily even. Such is the nature of online communication and sharing of opinions, and the hard part to realize is that said opinions aren't any more "wrong" or "improper" than your own. While we can only dream of a day where all anime is a universal masterpiece that appeals to everyone and summons only positive response, sadly we are not there yet - and as such, have to live with stances that cross ours on an open discussion floor. Fansites exist there for a reason - to serve as a gathering place for people who share the same enthusiasm on the specific subject at question. AnimeSuki, however, is not a fansite. It is a discussion forum that unifies people by our overall interest in anime, not out of agreement on any specific anime at hand. And while truly enjoying a show one feels inclined to post about can be seen as a good trait indeed, that isn't a requirement for participating in the conversation here, nor is it a measure we would ever segregate members by. Which is why artificial barriers for entry in a discussion will not exist on AnimeSuki, it runs counter to the very idea of this site being an umbrella where all anime fans can gather under. I'm sorry that some pushing and poking happens occasionally, but that doesn't mean we will prevent people from trying to wrestle their own spot under the overall cover altogether, based on a X level of devotion criteria. Indeed, polarized opinions or even polarized fanbases happen, but their entire separation is not on the table. Never mind to the extremes of having separate threads for both [Positive] and [Negative] opinions, that is, frankly, a fairly ridiculous idea and would serve as a festering ground for mutual animosity and even bigger rifts between said opinions, not to mention a stage ripe for trolling by the other "side". I apologize if that's not what some would want to hear, but the purpose of AnimeSuki is not to safeguard you against opinions that you wouldn't wish to hear. Fansites are there for that reason, but the doors of AnimeSuki are open to everyone (at first), not just the dedicated fans of a series. Turning some form of an opinion into an official second class citizen won't happen. TL;DR: If there seems to be an issue brewing, report it, and it will be dealt with to the best of our abilities. I'm sorry if the forum's staff sometimes doesn't see things completely your way, but sadly we have yet to find a way to please everyone (though we are trying!), and have our own standards we adhere to, which has shaped AnimeSuki in to what it is today. I thank everyone for posting their opinions on the subject, but I'm afraid the thread is going to be closed - the original proposal simply isn't on the discussion table. __________________ Last edited by Skyfall; 2012-01-25 at 12:11.