Sword Art Online - Episode 10 Discussion / Poll

[thundrakkon]

@vyktar

Welcome to Animesuki, and congratulations on your first post. I'm sure you'll get used to all the functions and rules here soon.

As for battle regen, it is a bit of an inconsistency. I was thinking the same thing for the past few episodes, and the only reason I can think of is that the author did not think about battle regen until later on in the story.

[Kamui04]

Originally Posted by vyktar

Spoiler:

Secondly, This is something i want to be discussed or preferably answered. It has to do with consistency. Now if you all remember, in episode 4, when Kitiro is fighting the group of bandits, hes level 78 and they only do about 400 damage to him in ten seconds. Kitiro has a Battle Regen of about 600 at a tick rate of 10000 (10 seconds). ie, the bandits don't do any damage.
In the most recent episode of SAO when Kuradeel poisons both Kirito and Godfrey they become paralyzed. Kuradeel kills Godfrey, then turns and starts to attack Kitiro. Currently Kirito is level 96 with 18500 health, meaning his Battle Regen would have gone up as well. Lets say by about 200, making it about 800. Kuradeel deals 3 blows to Kirito over 90 seconds, means that each strike would have to deal about 6000 damage, over 30 seconds, meaning 2000 damage over 10 seconds. Kirito's Battle Regen should have been able to counteract this to last longer then 90 seconds meaning that it would longer to kill him. This means that's Kuradeel needed to do over 2500-3000 damage every ten seconds to counteract his Battle Regen. Another possibility is that Kitiro's battle regen was disabled because he wasn't in combat, meaning he would not regenerate health every 10 seconds. yet another theory is that Paralysis disables Battle Regen, hence for both reason why its aptly named 'Battle Regen'. One finally reason as to why Kirito's health did not regenerate is that it was Gear dependent, and since Kitiro had the Blood Knight armor equipped, he no longer regenerated his health.

Or another explanation is that although Kuradeel is lower level than Kirito, he's a member of KoB and not a small fly like the Titan's Hand goons. In the Duel with Heathcliff, putting their level aside, just a little scratch to the cheek took 10% HP, now think of a clean hit? Also he not only hit Kirito but also impaled him with the sword and left it there which might also do damage over time.

And the third explanation

Spoiler for related to the Light Novels:

is that Kuradeel betrayal and death was in the main story in Vol. 1. The battle regen was added later and told in Vol. 2 in Silica's side story.

Besides this inconsistency. Seems like the animators were careful with this, since we don't get to see the HP bar in Kirito's POV anywhere near 10 seconds each time to witness the tick and HP recovery. And even if you count the seconds since Kuradeel's first stab to time each 10 secs tick, none of the times we switch to Kirito's POV fall into the tick timing.

And speaking of this, I mentioned this before, but the Duel victory prompt displayed it lasted 1 min 31 secs. Go and watch it, the animation last almost exactly that.

[GundamZZ]

It's fine. Apparently, the producers try to cover all story in the limited time. The story starts with Kirito's adventure, then he comes across Asuna's path once awhile. In their first encounter, Kirito advices Asuna to join the guild. In their second encounter, Kirito and Asuna are arguing about fighting boss. In their third meeting, it's not a coincidence. Asuna stalks Kirito, while Asuna is unwillingly followed by her guild member. In the meantime, Asuna aleady accumulated many admirers. Kirito's definitely the best pick. His best pick up line is, "You remind me about my imouto".

[king12354]

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

I bolded what would have been my answer... What character development am I speaking of? It's simple their character.. no need to complicate it...



This is your opinion... and my opinion is the opposite... It depends on how we look at it...

You don't get what character development is do you? How much has Kirito changed from the first episode to now and to the end of the show. What drives him to become this hero to save everyone from evil? Where does he gets his strength from?

Hint: The answer to two of the questions is simply because he is the main character.

[Adigard]

Originally Posted by king12354

You don't get what character development is do you? How much has Kirito changed from the first episode to now and to the end of the show. What drives him to become this hero to save everyone from evil? Where does he gets his strength from?

Hint: The answer to two of the questions is simply because he is the main character.

- What drives him to become this hero to save everyone from evil?

Well, prior to the Liz episode we were never shown anything (IMO) that suggested he gave a tinker's damn about escaping. He's likely a MMO addict living inside a MMO. And assuming they can escape he's likely (now) almost two years behind on school, everyone he knew IRL has likely moved on with their lives, and he's going to be an atrophied wreck after being in a coma for two years. Doesn't sound terribly appealing to me.

Post that episode I'd say his connections with other players inside the game has convinced him he needs to help these other people escape.

- Where does he gets his strength from?

He's locked inside a MMO where power / strength = time sunk. So it's fairly straightforward to assume he's simply spent more time 'playing' SAO than anyone else, and since he's a pure solo player he can spend as much time hunting in the world as he likes.

All in all, it's a rather negative way to view things, but it's also fairly true.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

One thing I'll add is that I think the one-episode approach has greatly lessened the impact of rather important events (the duel, and Kirito's first experience in killing a man). Their impact has been lessened because they've become greatly overshadowed by the romance, as discussions on this thread makes clear. These events are really getting shortchanged, imo, in the minds of viewers because of all the shipping focus. This would not be the case if most of the romantic scenes had been left for next episode.

First of all, this isn't his first time killing someone. Kirito believes himself responsible for killing all the members of the Black Cats guild, and we honestly don't know if he might have killed others inadvertently along the way. Even that aside, though, he was clearly shook up by the whole experience, along with Asuna who was blaming herself for the whole thing. But in the end, Asuna is a million times more important than the dead-and-deserved-it Kuradeel, both for us in the audience and for them in the story. Even the duel -- it is what it is; what more is there to say about it? The entire build-up of this three week arc was to cement their romantic relationship, and ostensibly getting us one step closer to the end of this game. I think you're getting hung up on things that won't really matter in the long run.

(And as I said before, from a structural perspective, I don't think splitting it into two episodes would have kept the same sense of momentum and flow, particularly when you see these three episodes as an arc. That doesn't necessarily mean that I don't think a little bit more time in the episode couldn't have been put to reasonable use... but I don't think splitting it is a good fix.)

Originally Posted by Triple_R

On the topic of the punch, I honestly have to say that I don't get at all where relentlessflame is coming from on that. Asuna and Kirito are only being themselves if she's punching him? That seems like a really weird argument to try to justify the punch to me. There's plenty of great Asuna/Kirito scenes that thankfully don't involve this brand of comedy violence. Are Asuna/Kirito not being themselves in those scenes?

The whole scene is a transition, for them, and for us. Think about the flow of events from Asuna's perspective: Kirito almost dies, then he kisses her, then he says he want to sleep with her, and then she starts initiating the deed. She's nervous and stressed by everything; it's been an awfully long day. And then this happens. All that pent up nervousness and stress and frustration comes out in a single blow (that obviously didn't hurt him; they're in a city, so I don't even think she can cause any damage, and they don't feel real pain). Now of course she'll be mad, but after she calms down they can have a real conversation about it. From all indications, they went ahead with it anyway, and they're both content.

I think you're taking the punch too seriously. What it represents to Asuna is much needed emotional release, and that's the real purpose of that transition, for Asuna and for us in the audience.

Originally Posted by king12354

You don't get what character development is do you? How much has Kirito changed from the first episode to now and to the end of the show. What drives him to become this hero to save everyone from evil? Where does he gets his strength from?

Kirito has changed a lot from the first episode to now. He started the show as a solo player and generally anti-social loner who was worried about other people holding him back. The one time he did finally start opening up to people, his lack of openness and honesty ostensibly got all his friends killed. But then he gradually starts opening up to other people a little bit as he meets (and in some cases "re-meets") Silica, Asuna, and Lisbeth. He comes to realize that living for himself isn't good enough, and living on his own strength isn't going to cut in this game where rules are changing and people will betray you. He discovers a soulmate in Asuna -- someone who he can trust completely, and who he can be protect and be protected by. He finally discovers his purpose: to free Asuna (and everyone) from this game, and that's where his strength comes from.

In my view, the whole show has been practically nothing but character development and now in particular is when we're beginning to see all the pay-off.

[king12354]

I really don't want to go in length because this is a stupid argument but relentlessflame, if he was really anti-social, why does he help Klein in the beginning? Why does he try to help the guy who died in the first boss battle? Why does he participate in boss battle meetings and fights? Why did he try to take revenge for that guy who had his guildies killed? Why is the show all about Kirito being good?

I know, don't tell me... it was because of Asuna!

He hasn't changed because of Asuna nor has he even changed for her. He was never alone as shown by the anime so being with Asuna does not mean he has not changed "a lot." He has always been strong so telling me his strength comes from Asuna is completely wrong.

It's just poor direction by the show and somewhat poor writing by the author.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by king12354

I really don't want to go in length because this is a stupid argument but relentlessflame, if he was really anti-social, why does he help Klein in the beginning? Why does he try to help the guy who died in the first boss battle? Why does he participate in boss battle meetings and fights? Why did he try to take revenge for that guy who had his guildies killed? Why is the show all about Kirito being good?

I know, don't tell me... it was because of Asuna!

He hasn't changed because of Asuna nor has he even changed for her. He was never alone as shown by the anime so he has not changed "a lot." He has always been strong so telling me his strength comes from Asuna is completely wrong.

I never said he was a bad person who hates people. In fact, he's a very good person, as has been shown all along. But, when push comes to shove, he's mostly been doing his own thing in the game. When he understood the real conditions of the game, he left Klein to go do his own thing. At the end of the first boss battle, he heaps everyone's anger/hatred upon him, and he goes it alone. Though he doesn't stay away from clearing the game (that's after all where the most experience is), he's not exactly a "team player" either (even at the beginning of this arc we see him mapping out the dungeon alone). He's been shouldering most of his burdens alone.

The strength I'm talking about is not the strength to swing a sword (or two). It's inner strength and a sense of purpose. That's what "character development" is about. Even in his previous interactions with other people until now, he was still relatively cold and withdrawn (but still kind, as Asuna points out). Now, he's finally opening up to someone else sincerely.

(I don't see what would be gained by showing him week after week grinding experience alone just to convey the point that he's mostly a loner. It's not exactly exciting to watch. The encounters they show are significant to Kirito because they're exceptional, not necessarily the norm.)

Yes, he's the hero, and as the hero he has certain innate advantages that fix him at the center of the story. But that doesn't mean that he has no character or no character development. I'm not really sure how much more it would take for you to be able to empathize with him in the story.

[kk2extreme]

So they can really "do it" in game?

[erneiz_hyde]

I have a feeling that if SAO actually made Kirito as the perfect hero that doesn't really have/need character development from the get go instead of the rather subtle one like we have now then this franchise wouldn't get as many criticisms. My personal view is that I'm torn that SAO offers a lot of potential because of lots of intricate settings, but is rather lacking in delivering most of everything else (except the cool factor, this one is enjoyable enough).

It would be easier for me if the author made SAO something akin to Ginga Bishounen to enjoy the cool factor, services and shippings to the max. Or actually make it a full blown philosophical/surreal story like SE Lain. Or even like .Hack where it skips over any technicalities and focus on the characters. As it is now, I'm unsure as to how to regard SAO because it hasn't been too successful to lean to either direction.

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by king12354

You don't get what character development is do you?

I wouldn't answer cause I'm dumb or its meaning depends on ones interpretation.

Originally Posted by king12354

How much has Kirito changed from the first episode to now and to the end of the show.

A lot... from a soloer to a party player... He acted solo because of the tragic past he faced where he lost Sachi and his guild. Yeah, Asuna was a big help but there is also Silica, Sachi or even Klein.... He gradually opened himself to people.. Is that not a good development...? or character improvement[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by king12354

What drives him to become this hero to save everyone from evil?

He wish to get out of the game at first.... the others became his motivation.

Originally Posted by king12354

Where does he gets his strength from?

Weapon's and stat given by him by the game.... corny but it's also his determination with support of the people he cared about including Asuna ... but not only Asuna.....

If you think none of us could satisfy your need for answers... well, we are not oblige to explain...

[Clarste]

Kendo training as a kid. He's probably the only geek in there who's swung a sword in real life. It's in his blood.

[Midonin]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

I have a feeling that if SAO actually made Kirito as the perfect hero that doesn't really have/need character development from the get go instead of the rather subtle one like we have now then this franchise wouldn't get as many criticisms.

I've already been struggling with that in one show this season, and I'd rather not have to deal with it again. Having flaws, failures, character growth, these are all things that I'm glad Kirito has. That's what makes fiction worth it.

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by Midonin

I've already been struggling with that in one show this season, and I'd rather not have to deal with it again.

My rationale would be to make clear what SAO is all about. As it is now, all kinds of people could be attracted to this franchise and find it not to their liking (hence lots of voices of disappointment).

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

My rationale would be to make clear what SAO is all about. As it is now, all kinds of people could be attracted to this franchise and find it not to their liking (hence lots of voices of disappointment).

Eh, I think there are lots of "voices of disappointment" simply because there are lots of voices. This is a popular show, and people will check it out to see what all the fuss is about. And each person brings with them their own expectations and requirements, and for some that's heightened when they feel that the show is "over-hyped".

If the show didn't have the balance of elements it has, I'm not sure that I'd like it as much, so I'm glad it is the way it is. That doesn't mean that it's beyond potential improvement... but I do think it's hard to speak too definitively on how things should change until we understand the way everything comes together in the end.

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

.....but I do think it's hard to speak too definitively on how things should change until we understand the way everything comes together in the end.

OK, I agree with you on this...for now. Though, I know they were most likely joking, but the first few pages where the LN readers says "surprise! we actually only care about Asuna x Kirito and not much else! ", it kind of hurt my expectations of what's to come

[hikarihikari]

Spoiler for Comparison to the author's original work...:

any chance they would add 16.5 when they relase the dvd or blue-ray?

[larethian]

Originally Posted by hikarihikari

Spoiler for Comparison to the author's original work...:

any chance they would add 16.5 when they relase the dvd or blue-ray?

0 chance since there's no such thing published by Dengeki. Furthermore, consider not just the target audience but the seiyuus. Enough said.

[Quadratic]

Originally Posted by king12354

I really don't want to go in length because this is a stupid argument but relentlessflame, if he was really anti-social, why does he help Klein in the beginning? Why does he try to help the guy who died in the first boss battle? Why does he participate in boss battle meetings and fights? Why did he try to take revenge for that guy who had his guildies killed? Why is the show all about Kirito being good?

I know, don't tell me... it was because of Asuna!

He hasn't changed because of Asuna nor has he even changed for her. He was never alone as shown by the anime so being with Asuna does not mean he has not changed "a lot." He has always been strong so telling me his strength comes from Asuna is completely wrong.

It's just poor direction by the show and somewhat poor writing by the author.

This is what I find hilarious about the presentation of this show.
The fact is, half the time you've actually been watching, as another poster called it, Side Arc Online.

The main focus of side stories is NOT development at all.
As I recently discovered myself, you are putting too much weight on these side stories. The whole point of side stories are to explore a single aspect or theme, which in many cases, are not the ones you were focused on because of the missing context that the novel readers had received.

The problem with presenting these side stories first is exactly the impression many of us anime-only watchers had faced.
We see Kirito as super-Kirito because half the time we see him do things which only he seems capable of, but the fact of the matter is, many of those times he was actually back in a down-leveled area. Of course, you had to be extremely sharp to remember that, otherwise you travel the wrong train of thought because the show seems to be emphasizing on how strong Kirito is, but that in fact was never the point of the side stories (figuring out what the real point of the side story is different argument though).

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Quadratic

This is what I find hilarious about the presentation of this show.
The fact is, half the time you've actually been watching, as another poster called it, Side Arc Online.

The main focus of side stories is NOT development at all.

I wouldn't quite say that. The so-called "side stories" are puzzle pieces. The issue is that you do not yet know the picture that is being formed, so you could not yet fully see how the puzzle pieces fit. So if you are too quick to rush to a conclusion about what the final picture is or should be, you will be confused by the pieces presented. It's only after some time -- namely starting about now -- that we're starting to see how those puzzle pieces fit. There are a lot of storytelling elements that fly by rather quickly in these latest episodes that depend deeply on the knowledge you gained and the connections formed in those earlier episodes. For example, you wouldn't fully understand the trust involved in SAO's in-game marriage mechanic if not for the powerful illustration of Griselda's murder. You wouldn't relate as well to Kirito's guilt (or why Sachi is such is powerful image in his mind) if you hadn't witnessed the deaths of the Black Cat guild. The significance of Kuradeel's orange (vs. green) cursor wouldn't be as clear if not for Silica's episode. And on and on.

I don't think this show required knowledge of the novels to understand. But I do think it required you to suspend your judgement and just wait and see where they go with things that may not seem to follow logically at that time. I think that's still the case to a certain degree even now, because even more puzzle pieces are doubtless continuing to drop and be fit together by the show.