Sword Art Online - Episode 18 Discussion / Poll

[Rising Dragon]

In my experience the discussions generated by "negative criticism" in the AnimeSuki forums weren't worth entering into in the first place. ._.

[The Green One]

Originally Posted by SilverSyko

Well Green One, welcome to the internet. Where everything is serious business and having a positive opinion toward something that's objectively bad to mediocre is heavily discouraged.

Seriously though, can you blame so many folk for being so critical towards a show that had so much hype and high expectations from many people and hardly managed to follow through with it?

And some people probably don't find positive aspects worthwhile to discuss. Sometimes negative criticism leads to much more interesting discussions.

Since I can make posts on the internet about it, I sure can blame them for being so negative. Yeah with so much hype this was inevitable of course, but people sure do go out of their way to complain about things.

Oh well guess it comes down to "Everyone gets along and lives in harmony? BORRRRINNGGGG!"

So we all complain, no one listens to anyone else's opinions and we're right back to where we started. A bit of a waste of time.

So then. Same time next week everyone?

[Dr. Casey]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

In my experience the discussions generated by "negative criticism" in the AnimeSuki forums weren't worth entering into in the first place. ._.

Personally, I think in-depth conversations entertained by those who enjoy a series - character analyses and relationship discussions (not just shipping) and the like - are frequently much more interesting than negative conversations. I'm not saying conversations have to be echo chambers of praise, but in practice... honestly, most criticism tends to be either people getting excessively butthurt or just missing the point.

[Bahamut]

...it's like getting high?

...that first high will always be the best and no matter what you can never reach that same level high again as your body gets more adapted to it...making you feel more like sh*t...

...when viewers have seen that one called "masterpiece" anime that made them go orgasm...they go look for another one with that kind of expectation only to be disappointed...
...and even if they do find that next "masterpiece" it wouldn't be as orgasmatic...
...then as time goes on their perception on anime gradually becomes more negative...

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by The Green One

Maybe I'm just too easy going with my anime shows but people seem to be getting way too bent out of shape over this.

I think people are too bent out of shape about this show in general because they think its popularity is not proportionate to their own idea of quality, and/or because it didn't live up to their own idea of what this sort of story should be about. It's pretty rare for me to see a show that some people take so much delight in disliking.

Originally Posted by SilverSyko

Seriously though, can you blame so many folk for being so critical towards a show that had so much hype and high expectations from many people and hardly managed to follow through with it?

And some people probably don't find positive aspects worthwhile to discuss. Sometimes negative criticism leads to much more interesting discussions.

Honestly, I haven't found most of the "negative criticism" very interesting. (Though I should say, some of it has been interesting -- if the person is willing/trying to think it through.) Most often, it's just a biased, incomplete interpretation of the story that suggests the viewer is so upset by whatever they don't like that they didn't really pay any attention to what was actually happening (or why). I'm not saying this isn't a place for those sorts of emotions to be expressed, but I rarely find the actual arguments very interesting. Most of the responses to said criticism amount to trying to explain things shown in the anime proper (and, novel readers inappropriately chiming in with well if you read the book, you'd see on page 143 paragraph 6 that... -- I wish they'd just use the anime itself, because it's almost always sufficient to address most points).

Honestly, I would prefer if people who don't enjoy the show focus more on their reasons for not liking it (what they expected vs. what they got), rather than insinuating that it's all the anime's fault for being "objectively terrible". (But I've had this gripe for years now, so it's nothing new. This is just the latest example.)

Originally Posted by Bahamut

...it's like getting high?

...that first high will always be the best and no matter what you can never reach that same level high again as your body gets more adapted to it...making you feel more like sh*t...

...when viewers have seen that one called "masterpiece" anime that made them go orgasm...they go look for another one with that kind of expectation only to be disappointed...
...and even if they do find that next "masterpiece" it wouldn't be as orgasmatic...
...then as time goes on their perception on anime gradually becomes more negative...

Eh, if it were like that for me, I would have dropped anime a long time ago. I'm pretty selective of what I watch, but I'm constantly finding new things to love (like this show, for example). If someone lets themselves get caught in that sort of negative spiral, then I think they're just going to become a bitter, bitter person.


Anyway, this is probably getting into a tangent so maybe we should go back to the episode in question.


One other thing I noticed in this episode is that they actually addressed one of the questions people had about why Suguha would enter a VR world despite her brother's condition, which is basically to better-understand what he was going through. And then having "found her wings", she decided that it meant something to her for her own independent reasons. I think that was a good way of adding a layer to her character and helping us see how she got to the point where she is today (and why Leafa is important to her).

[Primary Consult]

In the spirit of bringing this back to the episode in question:

Anyone else notice the story has switched entirely to Suguha's POV (except for the Asuna scenes) since the "logout" scene of last week? Until now they've only switched out of Kirito's POV for whole episodes twice: Once for Silica and once for Lizbeth (and since they were side stories it was less noticeable)...

[Ruby Princess]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

but I'm constantly finding new things to love (like this show, for example).

I volunteer to be the next new thing you love :3

I hope Lisbeth managed to make her way into ALO... ^^; She was always my favorite character...

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Tsukou

Do people actually feel sorry for Recon? I found him so annoying, he's the type who thinks he owns a girl just because she plays a game with him. And when it's pretty obvious those feelings aren't reciprocated, he still clings onto her obsessively. Obviously since he's doing his reconassaince it'll play a role later, but that doesn't change that his entire interaction just pissed the hell out of me, and was really the only downside for me while watching this episode. I can accept the excessive fan service, and stuff, but so annoying.

He's not that bad, but yes, he is the kind of "nice guy" who expects a happy end if he just sticks with it long enough. Too many movies with that exact plot, I guess.

(And I don't see how he's much like Kirito. Even in-game, he's not that good.

And Kirito has gained confidence from his years in SAO.

And he's not trying to get into anyone's pants save Asuna's, so it's really no surprise Suguha would react completely differently.
)

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Primary Consult

Anyone else notice the story has switched entirely to Suguha's POV (except for the Asuna scenes) since the "logout" scene of last week? Until now they've only switched out of Kirito's POV for whole episodes twice: Once for Silica and once for Lizbeth (and since they were side stories it was less noticeable)...

Yes, I like the perspective shifts. This was something I found rather lacking in the first arc, which was pretty much camera-locked to Kirito all the time, and even then didn't have that much narration except when absolutely necessary. It feels like we're starting to see the situation from multiple angles at once. I agree that Suguha's perspective is pretty well-conveyed here. Even though she's becoming a "renegade" to help Kirito, you can see pretty clearly that there's a big part of her who wanted this all along, and Kirito is just giving her the little push she needed to fly out of the nest (literally). I only hope that she won't feel her wings were clipped too much once she figures everything out.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

He's not that bad, but yes, he is the kind of "nice guy" who expects a happy end if he just sticks with it long enough. Too many movies with that exact plot, I guess.

(And I don't see how he's much like Kirito. Even in-game, he's not that good. ...)

I agree that he's not really like Kirito, except in the sense -- I suppose -- that they're both (apparently) geeks. If I were to guess, I'm supposing that Suguha probably approached him out of the blue to ask him to help her figure out how this VR stuff worked (since her brother was in the coma at the time), and he probably started thinking this was his "chance". But yeah, she had her own reasons, and they had little to do with him. Recon seems like the person who's okay to just tag along, but Kirito is much more driven and determined. Basically, you get the sense that Recon will never leave the "nest", and that's not what Suguha/Leafa wants. She wants to be free.

(Actually, now that I think about it, this whole arc is just as much about freedom as the first arc was. The first arc was freedom from a death game, but now this is more "freedom of will/destiny".)

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by Kokukirin

I think the design is to make him look as weak and pathetic as possible. How does he manage to stand all day with bended knees and back?

Come to think of it ... do they get tired??? Or maybe its the system just saying your energy is down but actually you don't feel tired..

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

Come to think of it ... do they get tired??? Or maybe its the system just saying your energy is down but actually you don't feel tired..

tired from physical exertion? no, but mental fatigue is there.

[Metaneo]

Gotta love how Sigurd thinks he can treat Leafa as property because her leaving will have a negative effect on his "Reputation." Kinda reminded me of what Heathcliff did when Asuna simply tried to go on "leave" to party with Kirito, then again Heathcliff had an actual reason for it. Met too many people like this online and quite frankly I find it sad. She was just in his "party" correct? Not Guild? Does ALO even have guilds?

Glad to see some character development for Suguha...kinda all I have to say about her.

God they love showing how adorable Yui is. I think it's funny that she obviously loves her "Mama & Papa" but has yet to realize what for herself what love is. considering she's an AI I think she's doing very well.

Kirito & Leafa being stalked by a bunch of Salamanders. Word must have gotten to them that a powerful Spriggan and Sylph have teamed up, and we just cant be having that in this game now can we?

Originally Posted by The Green One

What irritates me is the blatant distortion of facts, motivations, and the story itself of complaints. In my own personal opinion, if one is going to complain about something, at least have a sound argument.

This. I think I just found my new best friend on these forums.

Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako

The problem is, it's only happening to prove that Sugou's a sicko -- which is plenty obvious anyway. Something absolutely horrible is happening to Asuna and will probably leave her emotionally scarred for life, but that doesn't get any attention from the story because it's not important -- the whole thing is nothing more than character building for someone who's as one dimensional as Snidely Whiplash.

I can see how people would have a problem with something happening just for the sake of it happening, but.......how else are we supposed to know Sugou is a depraved douchebag unless he actually does stuff that's depraved?

Spoiler for Long winded explaination & Saving Space:

Look at it this way. Sugou proved he was a jerk when Kirito first met him in Asuna's hospital room. Let's keep everything he said to Kirito, yes that would give evidence that he's quite the sicko. Now let's say we take away all depraved crap he's said and done to Asuna that you claim is unneccessary. What we have now is not proof he's a sicko. Take away all that stuff and the scene with Kirito could be interpreted as him just trying to get under Kirito's skin (effectively I might add.) If he just came into Asuna's cage and made small talk with her (whistle revealing his plan to her like he did.) What we see is not someone who's a sicko, just someone who's willing to go to extreme lengths to get what he wants. And to be quite honest, people like him do exist in real life, and no, they don't need a reason to do what they do, that's why they are depraved in the first place.

Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako

That's like saying, "If that picture were of a white guy eating fried chicken and watermelon, you wouldn't be offended."

Funnily enough, that was me last night eating my dinner and yes my brother decided to point that out to me.

Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako

What makes the situation with Asuna sexist isn't the situation, but the wider cultural context where things like this happen to female characters far, far more often than male.

What makes the situation with Asuna sexist is......the fact that nothing about it is sexist at all. Asuna is in this situation cause Kirito is the main character of this story and Asuna is his love interest. If this story had Asuna as the main character then yes the roles would be reversed, though I doubt Sugou would be as quick to jump all over Kirito as he would Asuna.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Well, it's true that the author didn't have to put her in this situation in the first place. Given that she was placed in this situation, she's probably handling it as well as you might expect. But I think the argument is that the author should have told a different story with the characters instead of this kind of story. Part of this is because it employs old stereotypes that some people find annoying/tiresome. So you're right that people's opinions won't change, because the problem is that they don't like the plot development as a broad concept, independent of whether there's any in-story logic that explains it.

Kinda true but kinda not at the same time. While I agree Asuna didnt have to be put in this situation; no situation in any story ever has to happen in the first place. But then no story would ever be a story. And to the bolded part: This is why I love being me, for the most part, like 95% of the time, as long as it makes sense in-story logic wise, I can roll with it.

[Swordstriker21]

Hmmm. Pretty much expected all the negativity from that little so called "fan service" scene. All in all the pacing in this arc is constantly hitting a bit of a low tempo. Again as expected. No complaints but no praises either. But due to the cliffhanger I think it's safe to assume things are going to start picking up soon. For those who're considering dropping the series it's you're call but personally I'd like to stick w/ a series I've invested my time in until the end just to see how it all pans out then I'd voice my criticisms after seeing the whole picture. As for those expecting/wishing for the old SAO gang to team up in ALO I think even if they did log in they'd be of too low a (skill)level to help Kirito out. I mean granted that they still all have their Nervgears then they'd have the hax stats. But if not then tough luck. Maybe they can help in the real world. But then again what could they do. Two of them are high-school and middle school girls respectively. Maybe Cline could help out somewhat? Egils done his informant stint. And as a bartender. Very fitting.

[Krono]

Originally Posted by Metaneo

She was just in his "party" correct? Not Guild? Does ALO even have guilds?

Both kind of. The full explanation falls under "things in the light novel cut because it's only explained in the narrative, not dialogue.

Spoiler for Light Novel Comparison for this episode/chapter:

She was just in his party. I don't remember offhand if ALO has guilds like SAO, but each race is more or less treated as a guild that you're part of while making your base in their territory. Leave or get exiled from it, and you're a renegade.

As for Sigurd getting worked up about her leaving his party:

Spoiler for Light Novel Comparison for this episode/chapter:

Sigurd is essentially a Slyph race politician/guild officer. He's getting worked up because he sees Lyfa splitting with his party to adventure with someone else as something that'd be a blow against his reputation, which he needs to keep working his way up. That's also why he backed down from killing a helpless opponent in front of a bunch of witnesses.

[Tiberium Wolf]

Originally Posted by LoweGear

Looking quite Bishounen in this END CARD there Kirito.

Images

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Also Yui, your foot's in the way- *is SLASHED*

WTF!? Yui left leg has the right foot. lol!?

[Zeriand]

Pretty good episode overall. The so-called fan service has actual, meaningful content in it so it's not just a waste of minutes, and that's pretty good in my opinion.

A lot of people are bm-ing Recon for being a lot of things, but I personally don't see what's wrong about him.

Remember that Suguha was the one saved by Kirito, not Recon, so when a strange Spriggan suddenly shows up at the doorstep being friendly and all - in a world intentionally created to make different races hostile towards each other - his suspicions are completely justified. It's just concern for his good friend, not to mention Suguha is Recon's love interest.

And then in this episode, Recon clearly exhibits his intent to follow Suguha and Kirito on their journey, but had held himself back for what seems to be important reasons. This shows that he's not just a love-sick obsessive fool who cannot bear to leave Suguha's side, and has a clear sense of purpose and direction.

Also, despite Suguha's strange insistence to follow what must be to him a completely mysterious stranger, he had trusted her judgment that Kirito is a good person and didn't make a fuss about it, and considering how serious it is to be branded as a 'Renegade', that is quite the strong sense of trust he has there. He even has the balls to state right out towards Kirito that Suguha is his partner - or at least something like that before he was cut off completely - at this was done in front of Suguha's presence, so obviously he's not a coward who stabs people from behind the back. I'll say Recon is a pretty cool guy who managed himself pretty well despite having a slightly timid nature.

[Tsundere Louise]

Next time on Suguha-fanservice Art Online:

[Divini]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Recon seems like the person who's okay to just tag along, but Kirito is much more driven and determined. Basically, you get the sense that Recon will never leave the "nest", and that's not what Suguha/Leafa wants. She wants to be free.

I have to disagree there, Recon was perfectly willing to accompany Kirito and Leafa, but he said he was going to stay behind because of his suspicions. Based on the last 20 seconds of the episode, his actions seem more legitimate. Playing an undercover mole takes as much determination as what Kirito and Leafa are doing, it's just a different kind of it. (with his personality he's actually quite suited for that kind of thing)

For Sugu, she just seems to be annoyed at Recon's constant unwanted advances more than anything else.

[Hiroi Sekai]

So wait, does she know it's him or not? Kirito's character looks so much like him, only an idiot wouldn't be able to see it. Or maybe I'm mistaken. I need clarification, please!

[creb]

For the record, I generally have no issue with depravity. If our Big Bad wants to do disgusting things to Asuka, more power to him.

I'm just severely disappointed at the inclusion of cousin love, and the general lack of solid footing this arc has. While real death isn't a motivating factor anymore, I'd expect a little more sense of urgency from Kirito (I certainly wouldn't be checking what time it is to see if I can continue playing were I in his shoes).

SAO was always doing it's best to straddle a fine balance between otaku pandering and an attempt to tell a solid drama (I'm perfectly willing to put up with some pandering-I realize production companies do have to make money), and I just think it's gone a bit too far into the otaku pandering while skirting away from the actual drama.

I think I'd have been happier if the show had simply ended at episode 14, even if we never got to see Kirito and Asuna together in "real" life. And, while I'm sure they will indeed get together by the end of this arc, having to suffer this arc isn't worth it.