2010-04-28, 04:42 | Link #9421 | ||
Maelstorm-Fenrir
|
Quote:
Quote:
Now the question is how did she get that way. This is a shot in the dark probably, but I think that when Maria was little 4-6; Rosa spoiled her like crazy. Rosa most of the time only gets angry with Maria after she acts childish, or spoiled. Beating the child is certainly not the answer, but when a child acts like this the parent can get angry. After all it makes them look bad, like they didn't raise their child right etc. Rosa probably feels that when Maria does those it shows once again how inferior to her siblings she is. |
||
2010-04-28, 05:04 | Link #9422 | ||
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
|
Quote:
Oliver's theory that Rosa drugged her probably has some merit. Quote:
I can't believe you're defending Rosa here. Maria being a brat doesn't excuse Rosa taking her to the edge of a train platform and slapping the shit out of her, or neglecting her to go on trips to Hokkaido with boyfriends, or tearing her daughter's favorite toy in half and loudly declaring it "dead". No, Rosa has NOT raised her child right. And that's entirely her own fault. |
||
2010-04-28, 05:22 | Link #9423 | |
Maelstorm-Fenrir
|
Quote:
In ep3 Maria has a childish tantrum. We were never told that Rosa hates Maria. We were told that Rosa used to find Maria's 'uu~" cute. No it doesn't excuse what Rosa does, but Rosa isn't that horrible of a mother, she could easily be way worse. Rosa has anger issues and may be even bipolar. She has a truck load of self hate and many other issues. What she does is terrible to Maria yes, but from other scenes I think we can see that Rosa does love Maria; it is just so jumbled because of all the other problems. Rosa isn't just this horrid person, she is this sad person whose happiness is being ruined by her struggles to control her own issues. |
|
2010-04-28, 05:40 | Link #9424 |
The Death!
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Purgatorio
|
The only time I can recall Rosa ever stating that she hates Maria is that scene in Ep 4 where Maria tortures Rosa in her dream. I doubt that is much evidence of Rosa hating Maria to her core though since it's all in Maria's head. I know that being a single parent is hell, even though it doesn't justify Rosa's abuse there are alot of problems that stack up and take a tremendous toll on Rosa. Financial debt is a big freaking concern for one, child services, her company not doing well. Rosa isn't entirely at fault either, Maria made things worse with her tantrums. If Rosa really hated Maria she would have just given her up for adoption as well, but nope. Rosa wouldn't fight for custody of Maria if she didn't love her. Another thing, raising a company as well as a daughter doesn't leave much room for having a personal life either. Rosa is facing many social stigmas by raising a daughter on her own without a husband, so you can tell it's not easy for Rosa to actually find someone who would accept Rosa having a daughter. It's not justified either to abandon Maria for her boyfriend but it certainly wasn't easy for Rosa to find someone who accepts her either. Like Laserworm said isn't a horrible person she is just under extremely heavy circumstances which is why she is acting the way she is. It isn't a total justification for Rosa's actions but certainly she isn't entirely at fault as some claim it to be.
__________________
|
2010-04-28, 05:53 | Link #9425 |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
|
I said Rosa resents Maria. I didn't say that she hates her. Not quite the same thing. Notice Rosa's own tantrum towards her lover in Ep4... she blames Maria's existence for her own inadequacies and insecurities. Furthermore, Maria's tendencies to resort to crying and screaming to get her way are due to Rosa's bad parenting... but it's clear she doesn't actually know how to raise a child.
Rosa isn't a complete monster, but she is definitely a horribly screwed-up person, probably due to her own godawful childhood. Most people have parenting styles based on how they themselves were raised, which is why many victims of child abuse go on to become child abusers themselves. So really, everything is Kinzo's fault. |
2010-04-28, 06:21 | Link #9426 |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
|
Well, when rereading Ep4, I figured out why Maria seems to lack a skill to get her way quietly by guilt tripping her parent. Normally that ability develops by 6 or so.
Every time she does anything that would bestow any new guilt on Rosa, the existing reservoir of guilt bursts and Rosa hits her.
__________________
|
2010-04-28, 06:40 | Link #9427 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
|
Quote:
Even if Rosa hits her a little, she'll usually give in to avoid further embarrassment. |
|
2010-04-28, 06:45 | Link #9428 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
|
That's actually a very well known parental mistake.
By ignoring constantly their kids except when they throw a tantrum, they reinforce such behavior because it's the only way the children can get their attention.
__________________
|
2010-04-28, 06:55 | Link #9429 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
|
Quote:
Unfortunately, in Japan in particular, a child prodigy is seen as a problem even more than in other countries, and her way to be one is also incompatible with the restrictive school grading system - she is smarter and better educated but can't get better grades for it. Rosa is embarrassed of her child being different rather than of her child being actually inferior to others, and imposes standards not so much strict as nonsensical, which she partly inherits from her own childhood, (which were more or less sensible for an ojousama from a rich family that Rosa was but are completely silly for a city apartment dweller with a lone mother) and partly twists into a complete mess on her own. But if we're to be detectives, judging Rosa is not our job. What we need is to wrestle facts out of this messy narrative.
__________________
|
|
2010-04-28, 07:03 | Link #9430 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
|
However I don't think that your usual detective like Miss Marple, Sherlock Holmes or Hercule Poirot would be of any help in this story. If you try to solve this mystery like a detective would, you are probably deemed to fail.
I think Erika was meant to show that to us.
__________________
|
2010-04-28, 07:21 | Link #9432 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
|
Quote:
As I pointed out above, Nanjo's statement that pretty much everyone on the island played a Beatrice-affirming prank for Maria's sake at one point or another fits well with them seeing a need to somehow cheer the girl up and recognising her life is actually quite pitiful. So I expect they knew. I seriously wonder if Rosa visited more often than once a year, even though I don't see any hints stating that. I'm also very much concerned about Maria's name. Kinzo wanted a very different name for Maria, bur Rosa made it into Maria on her own -- notice, she doesn't say she picked a different name, and the name still shows Kinzo's insane design pattern. I suspect this means a single kanji or even a sub-kanji difference -- a missing or an added stroke, or something similarly subtle that produces a very different reading. So once again -- is there anyone versed in Japanese well enough to suggest a possible original name?
__________________
|
|
2010-04-28, 07:44 | Link #9433 |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
Again, let me stress: With a few limited exceptions, nobody credible ever sees what Rosa does to Maria, and Maria's own diary is a hopelessly biased source. The ep4 scene where Rosa says all the horrible things to Maria is also Maria's own dream. I realize how monstrous it sounds to question the sincerity of a child, but because Maria is so unusually intelligent yet emotionally immature, I have to question whether Rosa is really as bad as we think she is.
That said, she has hit her in the presence of Battler. I'm not denying that. But it may not be the pattern of abuse we think it is. Maria's bias helps explain ANGE's magic in the Golden Land, so it's not unimaginable to think that she is incredibly misrepresenting events. |
2010-04-28, 07:48 | Link #9434 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
|
I had no doubt that you'd disagree with that, Oliver.
anyway: Quote:
a "completely different name". I strongly doubt that Rosa would say that if there was just some minor change in the kanji composition.
__________________
|
|
2010-04-28, 08:12 | Link #9436 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
|
Rosa is still an Ushiromiya. While we know that Battler thinks that it's ridiculous to name people like that, we have never heard anyone else sharing this opinion. Maybe they all think it's cool and original.
There is also the fact that Rosa chose a name that at least phonetically is not so uncommon. So among the Ushiromiya, Maria has the least strange name of them all. I guess Rosa chose a compromise between Ushiromiya tradition and general norms.
__________________
|
2010-04-28, 08:21 | Link #9437 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
|
Quote:
Paradoxically, I think it also happens to be an epitaph hint anyway, just not in the kanji they're thinking it is. That cross-like 'a' is a fairly uncommon one.
__________________
|
|
2010-04-28, 08:38 | Link #9438 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
|
The strangeness is that the kanji
亜 亞 Are exactly the same thing, these two only represent two different ways to write the same symbol. The former became the standard simply because it's a lot easier to write (I guess). there are a lot of other examples of Kanji that were simplified in japanese. Again this might be just to be "original", Battler himself admits that in this case it's "classy". Even Erika has a strangeness in he name normally it should be: エリカ but instead she has ヱリカ
__________________
|
2010-04-28, 09:59 | Link #9439 |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
|
Abrupt, unrelated idea.
In Ep4 escape scene, Krauss says "Naturally, for a loving family like us." to Kyrie. While it's a moment filled with pathos up the wazoo, that particular line jumped out at me. It feels... A bit unwarranted even with all the stuff we're being shown. Well, the scene is obviously buried under many layers of metaphor and noise, but earlier on the phone, Kyrie actually calls Battler her son, and it feels more than a sentiment -- rather, it sounds like she actually knows he is and is only able to say that now. And we know there's a good chance he is. What if Battler is actually Krauss and Kyrie's son? If he were born a few months before Jessica, which is possible, he could actually be the true heir of the Ushiromiya cousin generation. That offers lots of interesting possibilities. P.S. ...anyone remembers the ending of Marmalade Boy?
__________________
|
|
|