Could Rock have beaten Neji?

[Hairydolphin]

We've never seen Lee land it and kill someone. We've never seen Lee land it and take an opponent out of a fight with it either. It's supposed to kill people...we've just never seen it.

Well we haven't seen it....but it sends a person head first at utltra high speeds into the ground....u saw what it did to the ground when he threw the Gaara clone into the ground? Do you think Dosu would have survived a head first blow into the earth of the same magnitude?

In any case, during a prelim match, Lee'd have no big root to pull up. I'm not saying Dosu beats him hands down...just that it isn't unlikely that he could beat Lee before Lee could do anything about it.

Yeah but see, Lee would know this time that he shouldn't play around with Dosu so they were matched up, I'm inclined to believe Lee would either do the Lotus right when the fight starts or take off his weights.

Lee can't open the gates unless he's done the Initial Lotus first.

He can't? Where did it say that?

After he does that he's stunned for a good 2-3 seconds. All Shino would have to do is get Lee to Lotus a Bug Clone (Lee would never know the difference.) and then Lee's overcome by bugs. He'd never get the chance to open the second gate.

Shino vs Lee is too complicated, Idk who would win...its really up the imagination.

However I don't believe that Shino can put in a clone to avoid Lee's lotus, the only reason Gaara was able to do it was because he was heavy and he wouldn't float, Lee had to kick him like 5 times to keep him up, any normal person goes flying up into the air with one kick and they don't have enough time to do anything. (ie Sasuke)


As for Neji vs Lee :-p I don't think Lee knew about the Kaiten...because if you think about it logically, the gates won't help against the Kaiten...and I bet Gai sensai was not aware of it either. Thats why Gai thoght the ura renge could beat Neji. Neji probably just kept it secret since I don't see Neji as the type to be showing off his moves.

So in the end, I think there is no way to tell. It really comes down to if Neji can do the kaiten against someone at Lees speed.

[OhJustSomeRandomGuy]

Originally Posted by Hakashin

Second, it wouldn't matter if Neji -did- close off all of Lee's tenketsus because he -doesn't- use his chakra at all. He doesn't need it. Besides that, opening the gates would provide more than enough chakra to open all his tenketsus up again.

Your second point:

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...6&postcount=97

Your third point:

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=343
(Last paragraph)

This is why responding to posts on the first page without checking to see what's been replied to is a bad idea.

[Hakashin]

Originally Posted by OhJustSomeRandomGuy

Your second point:

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...6&postcount=97

Your third point:

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=343
(Last paragraph)

This is why responding to posts on the first page without checking to see what's been replied to is a bad idea.

I don't have time to read 18 pages of posts. If you do, go right ahead more power to you.

[OhJustSomeRandomGuy]

Originally Posted by Hairydolphin

Well we haven't seen it....but it sends a person head first at utltra high speeds into the ground....u saw what it did to the ground when he threw the Gaara clone into the ground? Do you think Dosu would have survived a head first blow into the earth of the same magnitude?

I dunno. People have taken far more damage in this series and gotten up, people have taken far less and gone down.

Originally Posted by Hairydolphin

Yeah but see, Lee would know this time that he shouldn't play around with Dosu so they were matched up, I'm inclined to believe Lee would either do the Lotus right when the fight starts or take off his weights.

Lee wouldn't take off the weights unless Guy ordered him to. It's not even an option in Lee's mind. Just imagine it as being if Lee doesn't even remember they're on.

Originally Posted by Hairydolphin

He can't? Where did it say that?

I'm not sure if this is in the manga, but in the anime, once Guy starts going into his discussion about how Lee can open up the gates, he tells Kakashi that once Lee does the initial Lotus it's what opens the first gate, and then he can start opening the others.

Originally Posted by Hairydolphin

Shino vs Lee is too complicated, Idk who would win...its really up the imagination.

However I don't believe that Shino can put in a clone to avoid Lee's lotus, the only reason Gaara was able to do it was because he was heavy and he wouldn't float, Lee had to kick him like 5 times to keep him up, any normal person goes flying up into the air with one kick and they don't have enough time to do anything. (ie Sasuke)

Where do you get this stuff from? He kicks Gaara up in the air all those times to get him above his sand, not because Gaara's extra heavy. Kakashi says so. If he does a normal height kick the sand will interrupt it, hence the combo. Why would Gaara be extra heavy? The sand doesn't weigh that much...especially since it's mostly on the floor at that point.

Lee would fall for a clone...same way Zabuza falls for a clone, same way Kakashi falls for a clone, and countless other Chuunin and Jounin throughout the series. Lee is WAY beneath their detection skills. In this series, if you use a clone or a henge move, it works. That's just the way it goes. Lee would fall for it.

[OhJustSomeRandomGuy]

Originally Posted by Hakashin

I don't have time to read 18 pages of posts. If you do, go right ahead more power to you.

Generally then, people just reply to the stuff on the last page, because that's guaranteed to be unanswered. I don't read through 18 pages...I just happened to be the one who countered both of those points already.

[Hakashin]

Originally Posted by OhJustSomeRandomGuy

Generally then, people just reply to the stuff on the last page, because that's guaranteed to be unanswered. I don't read through 18 pages...I just happened to be the one who countered both of those points already.

Countered with information you cannot support with any facts from the series?
(Placed in question form for a reason.)

[OhJustSomeRandomGuy]

Originally Posted by Hakashin

Countered with information you cannot support with any facts from the series?
(Placed in question form for a reason.)

No...countered with complete facts from the series. Some manga, some of it might not be in the anime.

[Hairydolphin]

Originally Posted by OhJustSomeRandomGuy

I dunno. People have taken far more damage in this series and gotten up, people have taken far less and gone down.

Examples?

Lee wouldn't take off the weights unless Guy ordered him to. It's not even an option in Lee's mind. Just imagine it as being if Lee doesn't even remember they're on.

Thats subjective, since Dosu would pose a threat to him if he didn't take it off, I doubt Lee wouldn't ask Gai to let him take them off. And besides, even if he didn't, we have seen that Lee is fast enough to initiate the Lotus without Dosu being able to do anything about it.

I'm not sure if this is in the manga, but in the anime, once Guy starts going into his discussion about how Lee can open up the gates, he tells Kakashi that once Lee does the initial Lotus it's what opens the first gate, and then he can start opening the others.

Nope, Gai says that the Lotus opens up the first gate to allow its user to use his or her muscles to the limit.

That doesn't mean you have to do a lotus just cause you opened the first gate. Kakashi also opens the first gate, but he doesn't use the Lotus.

Where do you get this stuff from? He kicks Gaara up in the air all those times to get him above his sand, not because Gaara's extra heavy. Kakashi says so. If he does a normal height kick the sand will interrupt it, hence the combo. Why would Gaara be extra heavy? The sand doesn't weigh that much...especially since it's mostly on the floor at that point.

Episode 48, go watch it again.

Oh and even if he was trying to get above the sand...again no other opponent has sand to be bugging Lee so Lee wouldn't need to do more than one kick regardless.

Lee would fall for a clone...same way Zabuza falls for a clone, same way Kakashi falls for a clone, and countless other Chuunin and Jounin throughout the series. Lee is WAY beneath their detection skills. In this series, if you use a clone or a henge move, it works. That's just the way it goes. Lee would fall for it.

True, Lee is stupid enough to fall for less intelligent tricks. But his kick that kicks people into the air to do the Lotus is so fast, Dosu and Sasuke couldn't even see Lee's movements. So unless the person knows Lee's move, they won't have the time to replace themselves with a clone. The only people that can avoid this are Gaara and Neji.

[OhJustSomeRandomGuy]

Originally Posted by Hairydolphin

Examples?

Kin takes one hit to the back of the head and goes down.

Spoiler:

Neji 64 Hands of Hakke's Kidoumaru through a tree.

And he gets up 2 panels later.

Hinata also takes a crapload of damage before falling over. It's subjective.

Originally Posted by Hairydolphin

Thats subjective, since Dosu would pose a threat to him if he didn't take it off, I doubt Lee wouldn't ask Gai to let him take them off. And besides, even if he didn't, we have seen that Lee is fast enough to initiate the Lotus without Dosu being able to do anything about it.

Does Lee ask to take the weights off vs. Gaara? I just remember Guy telling him to, Lee asking if it's ok, Guy saying yes, Lee asking again, and then taking them off. If Lee doesn't ask, he's never even considered it on his own, evidenced by the way he asks Guy.

Originally Posted by Hairydolphin

Nope, Gai says that the Lotus opens up the first gate to allow its user to use his or her muscles to the limit.

That doesn't mean you have to do a lotus just cause you opened the first gate. Kakashi also opens the first gate, but he doesn't use the Lotus.

The way I saw it, that's how Lee does it, seeing as how he has no Chakra control. Kakashi has a much easier time with that particular feat, but he can't open 5 gates, either...maybe he'd be able to open more if he could Lotus, too.

Originally Posted by Hairydolphin

Episode 48, go watch it again.

I'm heading out and don't have time to d/l it on this machine. Does anyone specifically say, "Gaara's heavier than a normal person?", or is this just assuming because Lee doesn't kick him as high?

Originally Posted by Hairydolphin

Oh and even if he was trying to get above the sand...again no other opponent has sand to be bugging Lee so Lee wouldn't need to do more than one kick regardless.

Which is beside the point, really, anyway. The kick-combo isn't why Lee falls for the clone...Lee falls for the clone because it gets used.

Originally Posted by Hairydolphin

True, Lee is stupid enough to fall for less intelligent tricks. But his kick that kicks people into the air to do the Lotus is so fast, Dosu and Sasuke couldn't even see Lee's movements. So unless the person knows Lee's move, they won't have the time to replace themselves with a clone. The only people that can avoid this are Gaara and Neji.

You're assuming Shino only sets up the clone to avoid the Lotus. He can just set up the clone to avoid an attack of any kind. Clone dissolves, bugs get Lee. Lee doesn't open with the Lotus.

[Hairydolphin]

Originally Posted by OhJustSomeRandomGuy

Kin takes one hit to the back of the head and goes down.

Spoiler:

Neji 64 Hands of Hakke's Kidoumaru through a tree.

And he gets up 2 panels later.

Hinata also takes a crapload of damage before falling over. It's subjective.

I don't know who Kidoumaru is but getting ur chakra flow stopped is different from getting dropped on the head into the ground at highspeeds. Its the difference of being paralyzed to getting killed.

The 64 hands of Hakke is not a move made to kill people.

Does Lee ask to take the weights off vs. Gaara? I just remember Guy telling him to, Lee asking if it's ok, Guy saying yes, Lee asking again, and then taking them off. If Lee doesn't ask, he's never even considered it on his own, evidenced by the way he asks Guy.

No but Lee had no idea what Gaara was capable of and nor did Gai. However, since he already had fought Dosu, it would be stupid for Lee to go down their with his weights on when he knows he would lose. Less not forget that to Lee, winning was everything.

The way I saw it, that's how Lee does it, seeing as how he has no Chakra control. Kakashi has a much easier time with that particular feat, but he can't open 5 gates, either...maybe he'd be able to open more if he could Lotus, too.

I'll break it up to make more sense. Opening the gates, allows the user to get more chakra flowing through a person's body.

Lotus is a move that requires extra energy than most regular people have.

Just because you gain extra power by opening the first gate, does not mean that you will be compelled to use the move like Lotus. It has nothing to do with control.

I'm heading out and don't have time to d/l it on this machine. Does anyone specifically say, "Gaara's heavier than a normal person?", or is this just assuming because Lee doesn't kick him as high?

This is what happens. Lee kicks Gaara up. Sakura says "He won't float!" They show Gaara start coming back down a little. Lee says "I'm not done" Than Lee starts kicking Gaara up in the air, only later on do they show the sand trying to catch up. Kakashi says thats an incredible combo. Thats when they show that Lee slows down a bit cause he feels pain from the kicks, and thats when Gaara can make the switch with the clone. If it wasn't Lee having to kick Gaara so many times, Gaara would have become victim to the Lotus's full power.

In the same episode, Kankura says "Gaara uses up more strenght when he uses the Armor of sand since the sand is stuck right onto his body.

Which is beside the point, really, anyway. The kick-combo isn't why Lee falls for the clone...Lee falls for the clone because it gets used.

Eh...I sorta covered that up there.

You're assuming Shino only sets up the clone to avoid the Lotus. He can just set up the clone to avoid an attack of any kind. Clone dissolves, bugs get Lee. Lee doesn't open with the Lotus.

Well your assuming Lee wouldn't be fast enough to back away before bugs can grab em :-p Like I said, Shino's fight is mainly up the imagination of the person. Technically, Lee, if fast enough can step on the bugs really quickly lol.

[vega98767]

Everyone thinks that Lee is this gullible, slow Genin but its all far from it. Hes easily the fastest genin and the strongest and the only one who has struck Gaara until Sasuke went into supreme training (mind you supreme) in order to inflict damage on gaara. That should say something about Lees ability. I believe Lee is quick enough as it is to where if he would miss Shino due to the bug clone he could slash the bugs with a shuriken or just get out of the way of them. Plus if he had the weights off i think Lee could just dash around and hit shino before he could react. Now if it were a fight in the forest then that would be different due to shino being able to hide well and just placing bugs left and right. The reason Kankoru (spelling?) lost to shino was because he primarily just sits in one place forever and the bugs didn't really have to chase or anything and another reason shino won was because Kankoru sucks at close combat and got a bug easily placed on him. I think if shino came in on lee and tried to place a bug he would get beat terribly and end up in the primary lotus and unless you are gaara and are heavy with sand you can't just clone your way out of it. And once again i will say i think Lee has a chance against Neji although its a slim one. If lee were able to get Neji to use alot of his chakra up by doing kaiten then Lee would win. Everyone believes that this Kaiten blast is as powerful as a Uru Renge but naruto was able to function after he got blasted back from it. Yes Naruto has great stamina but Lee has great stamina and strength too. So say it takes Lee one knock from it to learn that the Kaiten is there. Then maybe he can open a few gates, get really fast and do some feint attacks on Neji and take little or no damage from the Kaiten. Neji starts to pant and get winded and thats when Lee goes in for the strike. But if Lee can not perform these feint attacks then i don't think he could win as well. But i think its more of a 43% chance for lee and a 57% chance for neji.

[Stickels]

Originally Posted by vega98767

I think if shino came in on lee and tried to place a bug he would get beat terribly and end up in the primary lotus and unless you are gaara and are heavy with sand you can't just clone your way out of it.

I don't thikn doing the lotus on Shino would be that great of an idea

Lee has to wrap himself around Shino in midair and then piledrive him into the ground, the bugs live inside of Shino, wrapping yourself around him probably wouldn't be that great of an idea.


I don't remember garaa doing a clone when Lee lotused him... maybe I'm wrong though.

[Hairydolphin]

Originally Posted by vega98767

I believe Lee is quick enough as it is to where if he would miss Shino due to the bug clone he could slash the bugs with a shuriken or just get out of the way of them.

Well thats all guesstimation:-p I mean if there are 100s of bugs attacking from all directions, than some can get out and start feasting on Lee.

Plus if he had the weights off i think Lee could just dash around and hit shino before he could react.

But he wouldn't have em off :-p

Everyone believes that this Kaiten blast is as powerful as a Uru Renge but naruto was able to function after he got blasted back from it. Yes Naruto has great stamina but Lee has great stamina and strength too.

Lee might be above others in stamina and strenght...but not Kyubi Naruto. I don't think Lee can stand to get his attack blocked and back at him and still stand up. Well he might stand up but he wouldn't able to fight

[Stickels]

would kaiten even work if neji was grabbed instead of hit?

I don't think it would really matter, as we saw with naruto's fist sitting on the kaiten the first time naruto hit him, touching the kaiten doesn't hurt, its the heavenly spin that comes after that does damage, and I don't think the heavenly spin would do much if the person was holding onto Neji.

So maybe if lee grabbed him and jumped up into the air to do the primary lotus instead of kicking him into the air it would work.

has someone in the manga ever tried to GRAB neji and have it stopped by the kaiten? cause I don't see how it would.

[Hairydolphin]

Originally Posted by Stickels

would kaiten even work if neji was grabbed instead of hit?

I don't think it would really matter, as we saw with naruto's fist sitting on the kaiten the first time naruto hit him, touching the kaiten doesn't hurt, its the heavenly spin that comes after that does damage, and I don't think the heavenly spin would do much if the person was holding onto Neji.

So maybe if lee grabbed him and jumped up into the air to do the primary lotus instead of kicking him into the air it would work.

has someone in the manga ever tried to GRAB neji and have it stopped by the kaiten? cause I don't see how it would.

Well see the thing is, Neji can block the attack with a simple thought with chakra, than he can do the heavenly spin. So Rock Lee would have to be faster than Neji's thought processing speed. And according to Hunter

Spoiler:

the manga later on shows that Neji can sense objects coming towards him or something to that degree if the objects are 2 meters away from him...so even Rock Lee's top speed, might not be enough

[Sethi]

Originally Posted by Stickels

would kaiten even work if neji was grabbed instead of hit?

I don't think it would really matter, as we saw with naruto's fist sitting on the kaiten the first time naruto hit him, touching the kaiten doesn't hurt, its the heavenly spin that comes after that does damage, and I don't think the heavenly spin would do much if the person was holding onto Neji.

So maybe if lee grabbed him and jumped up into the air to do the primary lotus instead of kicking him into the air it would work.

has someone in the manga ever tried to GRAB neji and have it stopped by the kaiten? cause I don't see how it would.

Well.

Spoiler:

In the manga we see Neji being trapped into a tree by a web with chakra in it that is almost unbreakable and he destroys it just by releasing chakra without making Kaiten later on he is trapped doing the kaiten by like 30 or 40 spiders shoting those webs all at the same time and spinning around him to drain the chakra of the kaiten spin.

So i don't think Lee would be able to pass through it, also Tenten states that the Kaiten surpasses Gaara Armor of Sand, Naruto only managed to pass through it because he went straight on with Kyubi power and even so Neji was able to stand up after being hit by it, so even if Lee extreme Lotus creates equal power the fight would end in Neji favor because Lee wouldn't be able to do anything more after Extreme Lotus, however Initial lotus is a no go because Neji would be able to deflect it.

[JubeiYamazaki]

Gaara did sand clone during the Lotus when Rock Lee was kickin him up, Rock winced in pain and closed his eyes for less then a second, that's when Gaara sand cloned, I believe.

[vega98767]

Granted Kyubi will be much more powerful than the 5 gates being opened but not at the point of the anime we are at. I think if Lee charged right in with the 5 gates opened it could knock out Neji. Just think Naruto charged with alot of strength and speed yet Neji was able to walk but was out of chakra. If lee charged with the gates opened i think Neji wouldn't even be able to move. But then it would be up to if Lee were still able to move. And unless it was the sake of dramatics for the anime we saw Naruto charge Neji but when Lee would attack gaara it was just a blur. And when Naruto charged Neji he saw the attack coming but said something like "This is close, i better start the Kaiten now" and that was with the time that Naruto gave Neji to prepare. So i think with Lees speed Neji could be alittle off his timing with the Kaiten? Like i said if it were just the anime letting you follow Narutos speed for dramatics then i guess it doesn't matter but if not then maybe Lees speed would be too much for Neji. But then again that goes back to the "If Gai would let Lee use such power on Neji" yet again the Uru Renge was his secret weapon against Neji.

[vega98767]

Pulling out the *bump*

[Bflip]

Damn, 19 pages. I wish I could read that all in 10 minutes. But... I say Rock Lee with gates could own Neji.