Toradora! - Episode 12 Discussion / Poll

[BetoJR]

Exactly. She was angry at the situation, and then he exploded in her face.

[-Sho-]

Just watch this episode !

Wow , Ryuji and Minorin Angry ! He doesn't apologize yet !
Hmmm , i think Taiga's father is not very like we think about . Minorin seems to know well him .
We'll see later !
For kitamura , its an annoying man , don't like him . Does he still love Taiga ? Because if he loves her yet why he doesn't simply go out with her ?but it will never happenned ^^ We knew that Taiga have feelings towards Ryuji !

[KeitaroNagato]

Really dont know what to say about this episode, other then the fact it was interesting watching Ryuuji and Minorin argued about Taiga's dad.
Overall it has not been as much impact as the previous episode, it feels like watching episode 1 again, maybe its just my opinion. Other then that, Ami scores many points, it seems she does cares for Ryuuji. Taiga is acting just strange, could be the fact her father is in the picture. Also, it was interesting seeing Ryuuji with his mom, even when he raise his voice at her, while she was making a point about Taiga's dad.

Metaphorically speaking, Ryuuji always love cooking, is an art/chore that he loves, he always pay attention to every details. Ironic, this time he was occupy what his mom was telling him, that he "forgot" it was burning. Could it be that what is mom was stating about Taiga's dads and whats going on with Ryuuji could be reflected by the picture of the "burning cooking", a sub-theme of whats ahead if Ryuuji dont pay attention to the ones he loves?

Well, I'm gonna watch it again, and maybe I will find other intellectual topics that might appears, but so far its has no other interests then what was mention before. I guess I will wait for the arc to finished.

[Tyabann]

What is (still) my current issue with this series?

Spoiler for future novel events:

I just can't see a believable way in which Ryuuji could fall for Taiga.

Nor do I really see a believable way in which Taiga could stop loving Kitamura and fall for Ryuuji instead, even if there is more setup for it.

The way they're currently characterized... them falling for each other doesn't seem logically possible, even if I know it's going to happen in the novels.

What this basically means is that the story is forcing two characters together against how the characters would naturally behave.

THIS IS BAD WRITING.

See, Taiga is STILL a horrible horrible bitch to Ryuuji, and will likely never stop being a horrible horrible bitch to him. How could anyone believably fall in love with that? Even Ryuuji, who's like the nicest person EVER.

Also, Ryuuji and Minorin, they way they're characterized, are perfectly compatible. They only aren't BECAUSE THE STORY AND AMI SAY SO.

THIS IS BAD WRITING.

Okay, fine, given that he's not exactly the most chipper and energetic of people, maybe they wouldn't get along. Who's to say they might not have more arguments that actually revolve around, say, THEIR ACTUAL PERSONALITY DIFFERENCES than, you know, something involving Taiga.

In that case, the most logical decision would be Ami. He "can't get along" with Minorin, Taiga's a horrible little runt, but Ami supports him. She's nice and kind. She's a good friend, an "equal" as she puts it (Wasn't this what Taiga and Ryuuji were supposed to be originally? OOPS.) and is obviously attracted to him.

Who would you choose, in this situation?

But no. Taiga and Ryuuji have to be together, against all logic. Why? Because the author says so.

BAD. WRITING.

I think that about sums it up, yeah.

[Noamara]

I disagree with you, Kaisos Errangon.

First, I want an AmixRyuuji ending (marriage and babies, *sooo curious how they would look like* *gg* ^^ a model and a delinquet eyes guy h3h3)

MinorixRyuuji:

That could happen when Minori becomes calmer, at least around Ryuuji, and we have already seen her calm side several times. I remember the ice eating ghost conversation, the next morning in kitchen and in the evening on the beach.

TaigaxRyuuji

Also very good (when not even the best) coupling. EP 9 when Taiga shouts at Ryuuji after he cried because of Ami´s teasing (10:55 in the run) that was soooo Tsundere wife shouts at her helpless husband thing totally cute!!! And when she put her feet on his back (cute again) and says she feels comfortable with him. And now EP 12 when she tries to arbitrate the conflict between Ryuuji and Minori. That was super cute of her! I guess that was her *dere* side right? And Ryuuji´s Mom already approves of Taiga, as she said Taiga is like part of the family (also an indication for a best friends relationship).

AmixRyuuji

Well...right in the moment as when Ami put her arm around Ryuuji..to me it felt like a big sister cheers up her little brother. Also her statement that she will always be a bit ahead of him...to me again like a big sister..being ahead of him just means to me being older and thus having more life experience (do not forget teengirls the same age as teenboys are usually more mature and that is a sociological fact) and being more mature than him.

To me it felt like there will not be an AmixRyuuji ending. *sigh*

Gave the episode an 8 I guess.

[Master Assassin]

I believe the originals of Toradora hasn't ended yet, and thus the real end was quite vague although the beginning of the series (Taiga and Ryuuji's lines) plus the series' title hinted it to be so.

I might speculate the end to be different than what we could have predicted, but then again I don't know what the original author of the series is thinking.

[roan]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

What is (still) my current issue with this series?

Spoiler for future novel events:

I just can't see a believable way in which Ryuuji could fall for Taiga.

Nor do I really see a believable way in which Taiga could stop loving Kitamura and fall for Ryuuji instead, even if there is more setup for it.

The way they're currently characterized... them falling for each other doesn't seem logically possible, even if I know it's going to happen in the novels.

What this basically means is that the story is forcing two characters together against how the characters would naturally behave.

THIS IS BAD WRITING.

See, Taiga is STILL a horrible horrible bitch to Ryuuji, and will likely never stop being a horrible horrible bitch to him. How could anyone believably fall in love with that? Even Ryuuji, who's like the nicest person EVER.

Also, Ryuuji and Minorin, they way they're characterized, are perfectly compatible. They only aren't BECAUSE THE STORY AND AMI SAY SO.

THIS IS BAD WRITING.

Okay, fine, given that he's not exactly the most chipper and energetic of people, maybe they wouldn't get along. Who's to say they might not have more arguments that actually revolve around, say, THEIR ACTUAL PERSONALITY DIFFERENCES than, you know, something involving Taiga.

In that case, the most logical decision would be Ami. He "can't get along" with Minorin, Taiga's a horrible little runt, but Ami supports him. She's nice and kind. She's a good friend, an "equal" as she puts it (Wasn't this what Taiga and Ryuuji were supposed to be originally? OOPS.) and is obviously attracted to him.

Who would you choose, in this situation?

But no. Taiga and Ryuuji have to be together, against all logic. Why? Because the author says so.

BAD. WRITING.

I think that about sums it up, yeah.

There are the cuts in the psychological depictions of characters, but I don't see what's the point of complaining about it being BAD WRITING when none of what you're complaining about has even happened yet. It's really going to be the process itself that determines whether people except what happens or not, and if the anime even gets that far without going to an original ending, it's going to be towards the end of the series. You're sounding more like a shipper, honestly, which is funny considering the mess in the Ami thread. This isn't even relevant to the episode itself.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by roan

I don't see what's the point of complaining about it being BAD WRITING when none of this has even happened yet and you don't even see the process itself, since if even the anime gets that far, it's going to be towards the end of the series. You're sounding more like a shipper, honestly. This isn't even relevant to the episode itself.

Then would you, a novel reader, like to alleviate my worries?

Because, from what I have heard of the events in later novels, they sound incredibly bad and reliant on overused, tired, plot devices. (Ironic since people were hailing this series as not using dead tropes prevalent in the romantic comedy genre.)

And I'm not shipping. I don't even like the Ami/Ryuuji pairing. I'm just stating what the current plot and characterizations would logically lead to, from my perspective.

(I also feel that Ami is really not needed and makes the story a lot more complicated than it should be, but that's just me.)

And I posted this here because a) This is the current center of discussion on this board, and b) because it was just a nagging feeling I had after watching this episode.

Originally Posted by roan

There are the cuts in the psychological depictions of characters

What does this mean? Please, elaborate, I don't understand.

Originally Posted by Soul Assassin

I believe the originals of Toradora hasn't ended yet, and thus the real end was quite vague although the beginning of the series (Taiga and Ryuuji's lines) plus the series' title hinted it to be so.

I might speculate the end to be different than what we could have predicted, but then again I don't know what the original author of the series is thinking.

Novels have gone further down a certain plot road than they can ever come back from.

[KeitaroNagato]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

What is (still) my current issue with this series?

Spoiler for future novel events:

I just can't see a believable way in which Ryuuji could fall for Taiga.

Nor do I really see a believable way in which Taiga could stop loving Kitamura and fall for Ryuuji instead, even if there is more setup for it.

The way they're currently characterized... them falling for each other doesn't seem logically possible, even if I know it's going to happen in the novels.

What this basically means is that the story is forcing two characters together against how the characters would naturally behave.

THIS IS BAD WRITING.

See, Taiga is STILL a horrible horrible bitch to Ryuuji, and will likely never stop being a horrible horrible bitch to him. How could anyone believably fall in love with that? Even Ryuuji, who's like the nicest person EVER.

Also, Ryuuji and Minorin, they way they're characterized, are perfectly compatible. They only aren't BECAUSE THE STORY AND AMI SAY SO.

THIS IS BAD WRITING.

Okay, fine, given that he's not exactly the most chipper and energetic of people, maybe they wouldn't get along. Who's to say they might not have more arguments that actually revolve around, say, THEIR ACTUAL PERSONALITY DIFFERENCES than, you know, something involving Taiga.

In that case, the most logical decision would be Ami. He "can't get along" with Minorin, Taiga's a horrible little runt, but Ami supports him. She's nice and kind. She's a good friend, an "equal" as she puts it (Wasn't this what Taiga and Ryuuji were supposed to be originally? OOPS.) and is obviously attracted to him.

Who would you choose, in this situation?

But no. Taiga and Ryuuji have to be together, against all logic. Why? Because the author says so.

BAD. WRITING.

I think that about sums it up, yeah.

I totally agree with you on this one, this episode feels... redundant, a waste on plot advancement (if there was any). Perhaps JC-Staff should have taken a different route with this one on the novels. There were only three interesting scenes, the argruement between Ryuuji and Minorin, the interaction with Ryuuji and his mother, and the "sister" care from Ami. Other then that, the rest was a waste, no further development on Taiga, who supposed to be the main theme, and seems to be left out as a side character.
BAD WRITING on JC-STAFF

Thats why I'm waiting for the next episode.

Edit:
I was shock how this episode played out, like a bad violin player, it just didnt have the same magic as before. I guess not everyone can be a winner, but I still love Toradora!, still appraising it, just avoid this episode, it does not really follow the previous character-driven ones.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by KeitaroNagato

ther then that, the rest was a waste, no further development on Taiga, who supposed to be the main theme, and seems to be left out as a side character.

How can you say that? You see Taiga as a pitifully hopeful schoolgirl, wanting to "strut her stuff" for her father (even to the point of bribing Ami for the main part in the wrestling match), worrying about whether he'll come or not, and being totally devastated when he didn't... whenever have you seen her act like that before? To me, that was a very serious character illumination, but some may not have noticed that. Not to mention her preoccupation with the Minorin x Ryuji spat, and her line about "forgiveness". All in all, I can't see how this was a waste of time...

[wistfulloner]

I see no believable way Ryuji would fall for Taiga either. But is he falling for her? No, more like the opposite. That's why you don't see Ryuji making the subtle moves on Taiga; the opposite happens. Anyway, you can see that Taiga doesn't treat Ryuji like a total slave whose life doesn't concern her. She tries to get him and Minori to make up after their quarrel. She agrees to help him get Minori during the villa stay. She rescues him from drowning and gets furious because no one else realized.

And in what way is the story forcing characters together? Its how they react to situations around them that cause them to have different feelings to other people. Taiga changes her feelings from Kitamura to Ryuji (if that happens) because SHE starts to love him, no one suddenly forced her to do so.

How is Ami redundant? And why is complicating things bad? This is what you call DRAMA, and DRAMA is what drives the story. A 2v2 would be pretty predictable, in my opinion, so a fifth party to spice things up would be appropriate.

Your BAD WRITING opinions are just how you see it. Disappointment because the story does not go your way does not count as BAD WRITING.

This episode is somewhat short on plot advancement, but how does that make it an "avoidable episode"? The skit was a blast to watch, and quite a few key points in the story revolve around the skit, like Ryuji's revelation and his argument with Minori. This episode follows his forerunners as faithfully as possible.

[Darknemo2000]

You do not see Ryuuji's thoughts as you do see as you see them in novels, that's probably the problem, like in novels he often thinks about Taga as a physically attractive girl as well, which we do not see much in the anime. But yes he is falling for her. Just like she is.

The problem is that they cannot bring out character thoughts so well into anime as it was done in novels. You would need KyoAni telent for that,and we all know that JC Staff will never be so talented.

Another thing is the relentless pace that I always criticized this series for. I do like the anime, yet the pace of 2 episodes per volume is too high to really bring out the best of such subtile series as Toradora. Due to this pace a lot of subtle things are lost, like making them falling to each other more logical.

Right now I would have to agree that in anime Taga and Ryuuji does not really look like a natural outcome, but there are still important developments to come. If JC Staff screws them up (as they are, sadly, more than capable) then it will be really forcing things.

I do disgree for Minori and Ryuuji look like a great couple. They will have their moments in the future, but they will never look good as a couple. But again, this is very clear in the novels since we can see character thoughts, but in anime we cannot, and the production team is not that talentated to be able to bring that out, so we will see how it goes in the future.

And yeah, so far, specially in anime, it looks like RyuujixAmi would make the best and most natural couple.

[wistfulloner]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

You do not see Ryuuji's thoughts as you do see as you see them in novels, that's probably the problem, like in novels he often thinks about Taga as a physically attractive girl as well, which we do not see much in the anime. But yes he is falling for her. Just like she is.

The problem is that they cannot bring out character thoughts so well into anime as it was done in novels. You would need KyoAni telent for that,and we all know that JC Staff will never be so talented.

Another thing is the relentless pace that I always criticized this series for. I do like the anime, yet the pace of 2 episodes per volume is too high to really bring out the best of such subtile series as Toradora. Due to this pace a lot of subtle things are lost, like making them falling to each other more logical.

Right now I would have to agree that in anime Taga and Ryuuji does not really look like a natural outcome, but there are still important developments to come. If JC Staff screws them up (as they are, sadly, more than capable) then it will be really forcing things.

I do disgree for Minori and Ryuuji look like a great couple. They will have their moments in the future, but they will never look good as a couple. But again, this is very clear in the novels since we can see character thoughts, but in anime we cannot, and the production team is not that talentated to be able to bring that out, so we will see how it goes in the future.

And yeah, so far, specially in anime, it looks like RyuujixAmi would make the best and most natural couple.

Losing out on the important details is unfortunate, but needed if Toradora isn't to become 30 episodes of flat description a season. Granted, it does lose out on the important emotions present that only words can convey though.

[physics223]

I haven't written anything on my blog, even if I had a lot of things to say regarding the episode because I didn't want to bump against a very important matter to me(for Filipinos nearby Quezon City and interested in books, please click that link ).

This episode was quite an Ami-centric one. Ryuuji's comment on the depth of Ami's change really summed it up: Ami has changed, and a large portion of that is due to Ryuuji's kindness. I'm sure this series is not a harem, but I'm hoping against hope that Ami and Ryuuji would end up together: as Ami noted, their isn't a relationship that thrives on mere dependence. It is not akin to Taiga hanging onto Ryuuji, and it also isn't akin to Ryuuji just looking on a mere mystery. Grounded in reality and independence, he'll help her grow, and she'll be the one to push him when he falls.

I love this series. It may seem to be just another romcom to most people, but it subverts a lot of tropes every time a new episode arrives. This episode may not have the same power as the two episodes before it, but it remains to be exemplary.

[typhonsentra]

One of the biggest factors in me doubting Ryuuji's feelings for her is that every time he was asked about his relationship in the book and TV show (They cut the time Ami asked about it but left in the dad, I think) Ryuuji tells the person they're more of a brother-sister type pair. You could say he's just embarrassed but I agree with that opinion, it just doesn't seem very romantic and her affection for him so far has been based almost entirely on her possessiveness rather than love. Can you even picture them doing coupley things at this point?

Spoiler for Book 9:

And isn't Taiga likely going to be leaving with her mother soon? Assuming 10 isn't the last volume couldn't this be an opportunity for development with the other girls?

[Darknemo2000]

Characters words are not always the best way to see their feelings. Like ask Shana is she likes Yuuji and she will say she doesn't, though it is obvious that she does.

Sometimes characters like to deny or are not aware about the feelings they have... So judging just based on Ryuuji's words is bit silly...specially considering that he is definitely physically attracted to her.

[Kinny Riddle]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

What is (still) my current issue with this series?

Spoiler for future novel events:

I just can't see a believable way in which Ryuuji could fall for Taiga.

Nor do I really see a believable way in which Taiga could stop loving Kitamura and fall for Ryuuji instead, even if there is more setup for it.

The way they're currently characterized... them falling for each other doesn't seem logically possible, even if I know it's going to happen in the novels.

What this basically means is that the story is forcing two characters together against how the characters would naturally behave.

THIS IS BAD WRITING.

See, Taiga is STILL a horrible horrible bitch to Ryuuji, and will likely never stop being a horrible horrible bitch to him. How could anyone believably fall in love with that? Even Ryuuji, who's like the nicest person EVER.

Also, Ryuuji and Minorin, they way they're characterized, are perfectly compatible. They only aren't BECAUSE THE STORY AND AMI SAY SO.

THIS IS BAD WRITING.

Okay, fine, given that he's not exactly the most chipper and energetic of people, maybe they wouldn't get along. Who's to say they might not have more arguments that actually revolve around, say, THEIR ACTUAL PERSONALITY DIFFERENCES than, you know, something involving Taiga.

In that case, the most logical decision would be Ami. He "can't get along" with Minorin, Taiga's a horrible little runt, but Ami supports him. She's nice and kind. She's a good friend, an "equal" as she puts it (Wasn't this what Taiga and Ryuuji were supposed to be originally? OOPS.) and is obviously attracted to him.

Who would you choose, in this situation?

But no. Taiga and Ryuuji have to be together, against all logic. Why? Because the author says so.

BAD. WRITING.

I think that about sums it up, yeah.

I don't think I've ever been so offended by a person's overly one-sided statements before, passing opinion as facts, and then still rating this episode a 9. Make up your bloody mind already.

Bad writing simply because you can't see them ending up as a couple, while totally ignoring the undertones and decreasing intensity of bitchiness of Taiga to suit your prejudices against her. And even if they don't end up as a couple, they can continue with their rival sibling-like relationship, which can't be all that bad.

That's about it, at first I didn't want to waste my time replying to you, but your constantly forceful statements of "BAD WRITING" simply offended me to no end that I couldn't resist upon you saying "BAD WRITING" for the third fucking time.

[wistfulloner]

Originally Posted by Kinny Riddle

I don't think I've ever been so offended by a person's overly one-sided statements before, passing opinion as facts, and then still rating this episode a 9. Make up your bloody mind already.

Bad writing simply because you can't see them ending up as a couple, while totally ignoring the undertones and decreasing intensity of bitchiness of Taiga to suit your prejudices against her. And even if they don't end up as a couple, they can continue with their rival sibling-like relationship, which can't be all that bad.

That's about it, at first I didn't want to waste my time replying to you, but your constantly forceful statements of "BAD WRITING" simply offended me to no end that I couldn't resist upon you saying "BAD WRITING" for the third fucking time.

Seconded. Any way Taiga acts is still win in my book.

[Sinestra]

This episode made me feel bad for everyone except Ami who gave some pretty kick ass advise in the only that Ami could. She is not out of the running yet and her attituide shows it. She is not going to help Ryu make up with Minorin and why should she. She has an interest in Ryu and if Minorin left the picture thats one rival down.

Taiga made such a sad face it made me sad too. I did not expect Ryu to blow up so much and Minorin and Minorin i never expected that kind of serious talk from you. I expected Ryu to apologize right away but he didnt. Toradora seems to surprise me every week. I expect the next episode to have somewhat of a serious tone regarding why Taiga's father did not show.

Ryu's mom is awsome he whining about Taiga moving was so damn cute. Taiga's apart of our family now i dont want her to go. I believe this is another little hint being thrown at us.

[typhonsentra]

And besides that, it really is well written and interesting. I know taste is relative to the individual but if it wasn't, it wouldn't be as popular as it is (Both in Japan and the translation project over here).