2013-07-23, 02:38 | Link #8421 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Athrun felt bad about killing Kira, and was horrified about Alaska, but he didn't start believing Zaft was in the wrong, until Zala ordered him to chase Freedom and kill or destroy anyone or place that had seen it.
No Freedom theft, that doesn't happen. Zala was unhinged sure, but it was the theft of Freedom and the revelation of people in Zaft willing to betray him, as well as the sudden threat that the NJC could fall into EA's hands that really got him unhinged as to start killing or arresting the people in the Clyne Faction and yelling at everyone. No Freedom theft, and he'd remain as he was. Wanting genocide but hiding it and coming off as the respectable commander. Freedom's theft is a total game changer. You can't remove it from the story without making it....well not Seed anymore. It's the motivation that causes all this. Zala wouldn't go crazy when he did, and Athrun wouldn't betray Zaft when he did, and now you've got a totally different end game. Freedom also HAS to come from Zaft. Orb can't built it (they barely have the Astrays and Strike repaired, let alone make something super powerful like the Freedom), and EA...well they could. But if they did there's no way CF is getting it. |
2013-07-23, 03:32 | Link #8422 | |||||||||||||||
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2013-07-23, 10:30 | Link #8423 | |||||||||||
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Join Date: Jul 2013
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Zala didn't have the right to hve Clyne killed even in the original. Even if his daughter is a criminal, even if he is suspected of hiding her, kill on sight is not acceptible. Due process and all that. Same with "restraining" any council member that agrees with him, or blaming him for the events failure of Spit Break. Zala's actions ALREADY DON'T MAKE SENSE. The Freedom theft is a convenient excuse, but the destruction of the majority of his fources could be used as an excuse JUST AS EASILY. And Orb can build whatever the hell the writer wants Orb to build. They don't need N-Jammer Canceller, because their suit doesn't need to be exactly as good as the Justice, it just needs to be a badass mobile suit so someone can engage the druggies and Athrun can save it from them. You really WANT to have an NJC? You can have Uzumi have developped one on his own, since they have Coordinators in their country, it is logical some would come from ZAFT (just as in Destiny, some Orb people went to ZAFT). Zala finds out Orb has NJC, pins the blame on Clyne (because he hates him) and sends Athrun to Orb to find out if they've put the NJC to any use and erase evidence of it, or prevent the EA to get it, or some other cheesy excuse. It doesn't need to make perfect sense because Zala is already off his damned rocker. Events happen and don't happen as the writer chooses, and they happen BECAUSE of reasons the writer chooses. These events can't happen EXACTLY as they did, but some analogue of them could be made with relative ease. The only reason the Freedom theft is such a catalyst is because the Freedom theft ACTUALLY happened. If it hadn't, then someone ELSE would have to be the catalyst. Considering Zala's state of mind, it wouldn't have taken much. Exactly. I didn't say it would take ZERO work, I said it wouldn't be a MAJOR change. It wouldn't. Write a good fight and you can have them escape just fine. Quote:
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Again, this wouldn't stretch the realm of possibility, nor would it be difficult to do. Why not? She's the Cagalli Yula Atha. She can convince Orb to accept help from anybody she damned well pleases. Archangel doesn't get a say in that. Hell, even in the original, Cagalli had more to do with Athrun joining than Kira did. Notice how the tension doesn't dissipate until Cagalli hugs them. Once Athrun is with Orb, him and Archangel are allies because THEY are with Orb too. Quote:
This is fiction, remember? Quote:
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We play up Clyne's anti war tactics, Zala finds some flimsy excuse to blame him for Spit Break (which, btw, he DID in the original. Freedom Theft has NOTHING to do with Alaska) and declares him a traitor. Quote:
If you wanted, you could have a scene of the Archangel only surviving thanks to the other EA ships getting killed. Pile some guilt on top of the crew too, because the show likes to guilt their mains. Again, this isn't unrealistic, or outrageous, it is simply not how it happened. It could have and no one would have cared. Maybe now he's listening to Rau when Rau says how dangerous they are? Or maybe any one of the other half dozen excuses I listed? Or maybe he is sent to Orb for other reasons? Are you saying you can think of ZERO logical reason why Patrick Zala, crazy, unhinged, kill everyone on Earth, shoot my own son Zala, would send someone to Orb? What's unbelievable about Orb creating a new, more powerful mobile suit? They've already created the Gundams before it. Why not a new gen? Quote:
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Cagalli was running the show at that point, and she trusts Athrun. And they need all the help they can get. When Athrun comes back with a new battleship and a crew, no reason to turn that down. Again, stop thinking like Uatu and start thinking like a WRITER. The story bends to your will. Can you really not find a way to make this story work with minor changes? |
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2013-07-23, 11:43 | Link #8424 | ||||||||
Goat Herder
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Age: 36
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No, deadpool, your hypothetical "everything still works out the same" just won't happen at all if you kill off Kira.
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2013-07-23, 12:39 | Link #8425 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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You know what lets just say this. Yes all these changes could work if you don't care about OOC and inconsistant motivations and contrived storytelling.
But it would also suck. And be terrible writing. Even worse than what Seed already had. All for the sake of this "edgy' idea to kill the main character halfway through. It's an awful idea. Stop talking about it. |
2013-07-23, 16:54 | Link #8426 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
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From what I have seen in anime, killing main characters only seem to work if:
1. Its at the very end (Spike Spiegal, ok debatable, but I maintain he died) 2. Plot devices which don't give a shit about death (Dragonballs) 3. Absolutely integral to the story that the MC dies (Yuyu Hakusho, lol I still remember laughing so hard on the first episode after hearing he died) 4. MC was "the bad guy" (Death Note) Of course this is based on what I have watched and noticed, and its also noticeable how Japan handles/view stuff differently from the West. Cultural differences always have a hand in these things I would have liked it if Kira died end of SEED though, he would have had a great importance in ending the war and saving everyone from Rau's schemes. And his death would carry over to DESTINY haunting Athrun and co. (which could also affect his relations, not wanting to lose any more friends) |
2013-07-23, 17:16 | Link #8427 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2012
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2013-07-23, 17:34 | Link #8428 | ||||||
Black Steel Knight
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Indonesia
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Wow, I’ve been ignoring this thread coz I’m too busy with work and building two of my Gundam models and posting in Gunpla thread. Ok, let’s see what we have here *looking at some replies to my last post*
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Anyway, I already said to agree to disagree, but I’ll give you my reason at least: That’s all due to the half-ass effort by Sunrise/Bandai to force Kira to the forefront to be the protagonist again by pushing Shinn away into one of the most unlikely role in the history of anime protagonist: becoming the bad-guy’s yesman-henchman till the end of the story. Of course, I loathed what Sunrise did to both Kira & Shinn’s characters. I’m not biased to either of them. They both got treated poorly. That said, what Sunrise did to Shinn (becoming bad guy’s yesman-henchman) somewhat made him into unproper protagonist IMO since during the last part of Destiny, he really lacks the agency to move on its own (always easily manipulated and depended on what Durandal & Rey said) until he’s broken. That doesn’t mean Kira and Athrun suddenly become the more proper protagonists compared to Shinn, no. What I’m trying to say is, by the end, Destiny has no proper protagonist. Not Shinn, not Kira, and not Athrun. Each one of them somehow became protagonist in some segments of the story they’re in, never becoming a true protagonist for the entire series. ______________________________ Quote:
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It looks like your idea of the entire series’ climax is different from mine, so let’s just agree to disagree. Quote:
I want to reply to your other points, but your tendency to interpret my comments in the wrong way has really turned me off. If you keep this up, I might as well ignore you from now on in place of a more healthy discussion with other members.
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2013-07-23, 23:19 | Link #8429 | ||||||||||||||||||
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And the other ships sacrificing themselves for the Archangel would be unrealistic. Quote:
Otherwise, his target is the EA/whole Earth, and Orb is irrelevant. Quote:
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And without the theft of the Freedom, Lacus might not even defect. Quote:
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2013-07-24, 03:11 | Link #8430 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: "Sacrifice one to appease the few."
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Fans would have whined than accepted it since Athrun was there since SEED started and the fanbase liked him already. So after the initial whining, as all fanbases do, they would either leave the anime or accept Kira's demise and moved on to Athrun. It's sorta like how Gin died in Bleach, fans were raging hard about that for awhile but later accepted it and moved on after their emotions settled. The same would have happened with Kira, especially since Athrun was already the Dual Main Character. |
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2013-07-24, 14:35 | Link #8431 | |
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Join Date: Mar 2010
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No? Though so... don't underestimate fan rage and killing + switch is worse than switch a lone it like Kira fighting shin and killing him than becoming main characters + Gin was not main character in Bleach + since when did he die? Last edited by Gundamx; 2013-07-24 at 14:49. |
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2013-07-24, 16:38 | Link #8432 |
As I make you stop, think
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Europe - The Netherlands
Age: 34
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@Deadpool2000:
I don't really have a problem if you say that Shinn is one of the main characters. He obviously is and if we look at who got the most screen time and focus from the first episode to that last one in Destiny it's obviously Shinn, But the problem is if you say he is The protagonist of Destiny. I can't agree with that. To bring it back to the current discussion, Kira is without a doubt the protagonist of SEED. What he does as a character and the way his is developed obviously drives the show. Even when he becomes slightly less important to the main plot in the last act of the story as Athrun and Lacus also get more focus, there are many sub-plots added where he plays a pivotal role. He can not be replaced in the 2nd half (what a stupid discussion btw) or at any point in the story without changing the framework of the show itself. The same thing can not be said about Shinn. Let's take SEED as an example, try to draw a relationship chart for Kira in SEED and after that make one for Shinn is Destiny.. You'll see that Kira is in the center, connected to most of the primary and secondary characters and he'll also be the pivot and sometimes even the linchpin in a lot of important event.. Shinn's chart will look very different, he'll not be in the center and there will be less lines in his chart.. probably only a little more then Athrun. I understand that Shinn has the most screen time and focus when compared to the other characters in Destiny. So yeah, you can say that he is the protagonist, I think that's a fair point. but when we look at his (non existing) character development or the limited impact he has on the main plot and a lot of the sub plots where he is absent, It does become questionable. That's my point.
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2013-07-24, 16:47 | Link #8433 | |
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2013-07-24, 17:01 | Link #8434 | |
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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Also, Spoiler for image:
Athrun Meyrin Stella Cagalli Yuna Lunamaria Kira Djibril Rey Lacus Durandal Shinn Ah, I forgot Neo, which would be connected to Stella, Shinn, and Murrue, which I also forgot. I suppose Athrun could also be connected to Durandal and Meer, and Meer (again I forgot) be connected to Durandal and Lacus, And Kira and Athrun are connected to Cagalli. LOL, I should just redo it. Here you go: Spoiler for image:
Last edited by monster; 2013-07-24 at 17:15. |
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2013-07-24, 17:56 | Link #8436 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
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I got to say. This has got to be one of the worst topics (regarding Destiny) to be dragged so far, kept alive so long (maybe purposely), spill into the prequel, way past the point where it should of been deaded. Does the next episode have to come out to break the monotony? This is just crazy.
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2013-07-25, 01:25 | Link #8439 |
2LMES
Join Date: May 2012
Location: a comet that goes zooom!!!
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since a couple of people are rather bored with this conversation i found a couple of funny Seed/Destiny videos on youtube i bet you've probably have already seen them but what the heck
Spoiler for the cheesy video:
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2013-07-25, 10:25 | Link #8440 |
Powered by AMD Athrun 64
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Washington, DC
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Why can't the producers/Fukuda/Morosawa can't admit it and say that Athrun is the de facto main character of Destiny?
Out of the three supposed main characters, Athrun had the most screentime, and the TV Movies were told from his perspective. Also, the GSD: The Edge manga is an alternate retelling of GSD from Athrun's POV.
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mecha, seed it and weep |
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