Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei LN - Archived Discussion

[Seitsuki]

You're saying Vietnam has a stronger military than Japan/Korea/any number of Asian states? Come on

That said it is rather glaring that Japan alone remains though.

[neoinfinity204]

Think of it this way an invasion of Japan would require a landing by sea which would be extremely costly. The US was preparing for millions dead during WW2 when they were still planning on landing on the beaches. It could have been the same way with Japan and the Asian Alliance in this universe.

It would have been a brutal campaign which is why there is a high chance of Japan surviving alone if for no other reason than the fact it is an island nation with a number of different islands. A landing by sea is much more difficult than if you can march your troops on the ground which is probably how Korea and Vietnam would have fallen.

I also think it stated that Asian Alliance in volume 7 or another landed on Japanese islands and basically took a heavy toll on the population before being pushed back.

[bietchie11]

Originally Posted by Seitsuki

You're saying Vietnam has a stronger military than Japan/Korea/any number of Asian states? Come on

That said it is rather glaring that Japan alone remains though.

Spoiler:

Vietnam is constantly at war with China for the independence for about 2000 years til now:

-Vietnam struggled against China's chain of enslavement for one millennium from around 62 BC to 938 AD and finally they liberated at 938.

-They kicked Mongol Empire's ass not once or twice but 3 times from 1258 to 1288 while the whole China is their *****. (have you heard about Genghis Khan before?)

-Nguyễn Huệ kicked Qing Dynasty's 200,000-troop army in 5 days and the enemy didn't even know what hit them.

The events above is just a few notable ones in Viet Nam's long and bloody history which every page of it is all about David versus Goliath, all for the bowl of rice.
To Vietnamese, kicking France and America's ass out of their country is just another day at the office.

Conclusion, for over 1000 years of indoctrination, fight again all the odd, and they still remain true to themselves -Vietnamese way of Life, I think it's legit to say what i said.
Not to mention that Viet Nam is closer in relationship to other South East Asia countries and belongs to ASEAN group and ASEAN has almost nothing to do with China.
There is no reason for them to merge/ join with each other since they have no common interest as you can see it right now.

They don't have a stronger military than France or America or China in term of number of troop, advance in technology.
They seem to be weak but the fact remains that they kicked many ass, big ass at that.
That's why i kind of relate VN to Japan in the LN. Every nation want a piece of Japan because they seem to be weak.
If they seem to be strong(in LN), no one will dare to touch them like no one dare to touch America or France or British or China (in real life).

[Ultragunner]

hahahaha, nice one!!

Now I see, it wouldn't be so strange if the author lets AA declare war upon Japan (I mean real, open, frontal, "hot" war), and then has Tatsuya kick their @sses .

IMHO, Japan (in this LN) seems so OP with the Ten Master Clan while the author hasn't noted any magically strong & significant families outside of Japan (even Lina is descended from Japan), but it would be totally awesome if he would (expand the universe of the LN, more characters and more...epicness LOL )

[henzaeroz]

Originally Posted by bietchie11

Spoiler:

If someone merge with China voluntary, Japan and Korea will be the first, not the last.

Spoiler:

really ?

i think Japan has a bad relationship with China and Korea cause of World War II


also Japan and China conflicts on Senkaku Islands dispute

[Oxide]

Japan as small, neutral and technologicaly advanced country located between strong forces was used already in media so many times (it is like standard template in manga/anime) ... it is stupid this need even any elaboration ...

The fact is Japan survived 3rd war war and is able to maintain status quo with other countries, that is all that matters for plot ... rest is pretty mainstream

[bietchie11]

Originally Posted by henzaeroz

Spoiler:

really ?

i think Japan has a bad relationship with China and Korea cause of World War II


also Japan and China conflicts on Senkaku Islands dispute

Spoiler:

They do.
Rumor said Chinese hates Japanese with passion for what they did to them in WW2. (More reason to make JP theirs, actually.)

But still, they have to cope with each other for their common interest. (common interest- that's the magic word.)
For example, North Korea problem. They might do something like this:"we need to join our hand and put down the nuclear threat."(again, turn on TV. Lots of meeting between those three)
*crazy stuff alert*
And then China is like:"while we are at it, why don't you merge with us and become ours?" in casual tone.
And baam, a believable-enough AA created.

In the meanwhile ASEAN is like :"no firework? Awww"
*end*

The only recent interaction between China and ASEAN is that they try to wage a war for South China Sea.(just google "South China Sea Territorial disputes".)
Not sure if this is a good motivation to voluntarily merge with each others.

South Korea and Japan's interest conflicts with China's. True, but just as much as ASEAN in general, less than VN specifically.
At least, JP and CN join hand in NK situation.
CN and ASEAN, not even a single common interest. (correct me if i am wrong.)

Let's say Japan is stronger than any merged countries for example: China, VN, Canada,... (again, like i said: author's favoritism).
But that fact doesn't conflict with my speculation that Japan seems to be weak when compared to UNSA, AA or EU.
(if you haven't realize it, the key word is "seem" not "is".)

UNSA and Canada; China and AA : they are different things.

[willx]

^ From my (and certain other) people's perspectives .. You seem to have an odd understanding of both current and "plot-future" military, political and economic circumstances. Let's just all agree to disagree and move on.

[bietchie11]

Originally Posted by willx

^ From my (and certain other) people's perspectives .. You seem to have an odd understanding of both current and "plot-future" military, political and economic circumstances. Let's just all agree to disagree and move on.

Agree, we provide enough possibility reasons for why Japan got bullied or bullied(with Tatsuya's help)
Let him decide which one is true.

But damn, all these arguments make me feel conflicted when Tatsuya kick UNSA ass(i think he will eventually). Between my favorite character and my homeboys. In the back of my mind, UNSA was = America but now ...

P/S: i forgot to ask. Where do you get your avatar?

[CatRules]

Originally Posted by bietchie11

Agree, we provide enough possibility reasons for why Japan got bullied or bullied(with Tatsuya's help)
Let him decide which one is true.

But damn, all these arguments make me feel conflicted when Tatsuya kick UNSA ass(i think he will eventually). Between my favorite character and my homeboys. In the back of my mind, UNSA was = America but now ...

P/S: i forgot to ask. Where do you get your avatar?

You like cats?

[bietchie11]

Originally Posted by CatRules

You like cats?

i certainly do.

[whsie]

Originally Posted by bietchie11

Spoiler:

Vietnam is constantly at war with China for the independence for about 2000 years til now:

-Vietnam struggled against China's chain of enslavement for one millennium from around 62 BC to 938 AD and finally they liberated at 938.

-They kicked Mongol Empire's ass not once or twice but 3 times from 1258 to 1288 while the whole China is their *****. (have you heard about Genghis Khan before?)

-Nguyễn Huệ kicked Qing Dynasty's 200,000-troop army in 5 days and the enemy didn't even know what hit them.

The events above is just a few notable ones in Viet Nam's long and bloody history which every page of it is all about David versus Goliath, all for the bowl of rice.
To Vietnamese, kicking France and America's ass out of their country is just another day at the office.

Conclusion, for over 1000 years of indoctrination, fight again all the odd, and they still remain true to themselves -Vietnamese way of Life, I think it's legit to say what i said.
Not to mention that Viet Nam is closer in relationship to other South East Asia countries and belongs to ASEAN group and ASEAN has almost nothing to do with China.
There is no reason for them to merge/ join with each other since they have no common interest as you can see it right now.

They don't have a stronger military than France or America or China in term of number of troop, advance in technology.
They seem to be weak but the fact remains that they kicked many ass, big ass at that.
That's why i kind of relate VN to Japan in the LN. Every nation want a piece of Japan because they seem to be weak.
If they seem to be strong(in LN), no one will dare to touch them like no one dare to touch America or France or British or China (in real life).

Having studied some Chinese history,

Spoiler for slightly off topic:

the Mongols struggled in Vietnam because just about every advantage the Mongols had were neutralized. I remember there was 1 or 2 navy battles that resulted in a 90%+ casualty rate on the Mongol side, but then again, you have to remember that Mongols aren't known for their navies. The other key factor was geography and climate. It's hot, humid, and the land is filled with vegetation. Not only do soldiers easily fall ill, but their greatest asset- the cavalry- is half nerfed by the landscape.

Also, one more little thing. Genghis Khan was long dead at that time. The Mongols were at their 5th khan- Kublai Khan. Granted, he was just as famous, but by that time, the Mongol empire was about to fracture into the 4 kingdoms and Kublai Khan has largely settled into his throne at Dadu (modern day Beijing). I know Kublai Khan himself didn't personally lead those campaigns. Kublai Khan himself was militarily known to have finished off the Song Dynasty and Dali Dynasty in the South. The rest of the campaigns that occurred under his watch (but didn't lead) were largely costy and disastrous. The Koreans took a long time to subdue, the Japanese lucked out with their seasonal typhoons, and the Vietnamese just straight up beat them on their homecourt.

Ultimately, the Communist Party won the war in Vietnam, but it was at an extremely high cost. I distinctively remember my History teacher stating that the kill ratio for the Vietnam for US soldiers was 1:15. The problem that the US Army faced was that the North wouldn't fight them straight up and played this guerrilla warfare (and correctly so because the Vietnamese were never going to win straight up). If the Iraq, Afghanistan, Serbia, and Persian Gulf Wars (plus Soviet Union's Afghan war) have shown us anything it's that the US Army is great at quick strikes that quickly topple a regime and sent them into hiding. Anything drawn out in enemy territory eventually results in low morale and high costs with no clear end in sight.

As for China in real life. They're currently more strong based on their raw #s with their above average technology. In any potential war (assuming China doesn't use nukes), they're not going to beat their neighbors with superior technology because both South Korea and Japan's armies have superior technology (by a fair margin too). If they win, it's because they have larger air force fleet, a larger ground force, a larger navy, and more resources. China would win, but they would definitely suffer higher casualties.

In terms of active force, they're the largest in the world. Their tanks are so-so and still based on the Russian models (who aren't great tank builders themselves). South Korea's Black Panther is still by far the best tank in the Asia area (though also the most expensive in the world).

They have the world's second largest air force (I believe like 4000-5000 jets), but their technology for the mid tier planes are average at best. Their top of the line stealth fighters are impressive and right up there with the US' F-22 and Russia's PAK FA, but they're still in the prototype stage. Overall, their air force is probably top 3 if not 4 in the world.

Their navy is technologically utter crap right now. They have 1 former Soviet carrier and tons of subs, but the quality of the subs are really bad (bought or based on old Soviet models). Japan, South Korea, and India all have superior navies by a good margin. With that said, a strong navy is not as important for China in a potential war with a neighbor because strong navies are based on getting a landing force, getting a base on foreign territory (what the US carriers did in WWII) by using the carriers to project the air force over enemy territory, and finally using nuke subs.

[kengaa]

sorry for suddenly disturbing but whsie do you know who was the supreme commander of vietnamese army when they fight with the mongols even genghis khan still alive he wouldnt be able to help much for saving some more the survival mongols soldier you know the result will alway them same even with him leading the army, you should learn more about vietnamese history not just chinese if you want to know more a bout mongols war with vietnam .

[Forbin]

Time to derail and bring the thread back on topic

Is it explained when tatsuya learned the ability to useMB on items he hasnt touched?
In the past arc he touched the bullets but in the NHD and Yokohama arc he just read the information id?

[babbo3d]

Originally Posted by Forbin

Time to derail and bring the thread back on topic

Is it explained when tatsuya learned the ability to useMB on items he hasnt touched?
In the past arc he touched the bullets but in the NHD and Yokohama arc he just read the information id?

Well magic isn't effected by distance so if he could do it with something in his hand in theory he can do it at a distance.

[bietchie11]

Originally Posted by whsie

Having studied some Chinese history,

Spoiler for slightly off topic:

the Mongols struggled in Vietnam because just about every advantage the Mongols had were neutralized. I remember there was 1 or 2 navy battles that resulted in a 90%+ casualty rate on the Mongol side, but then again, you have to remember that Mongols aren't known for their navies. The other key factor was geography and climate. It's hot, humid, and the land is filled with vegetation. Not only do soldiers easily fall ill, but their greatest asset- the cavalry- is half nerfed by the landscape.

Also, one more little thing. Genghis Khan was long dead at that time. The Mongols were at their 5th khan- Kublai Khan. Granted, he was just as famous, but by that time, the Mongol empire was about to fracture into the 4 kingdoms and Kublai Khan has largely settled into his throne at Dadu (modern day Beijing). I know Kublai Khan himself didn't personally lead those campaigns. Kublai Khan himself was militarily known to have finished off the Song Dynasty and Dali Dynasty in the South. The rest of the campaigns that occurred under his watch (but didn't lead) were largely costy and disastrous. The Koreans took a long time to subdue, the Japanese lucked out with their seasonal typhoons, and the Vietnamese just straight up beat them on their homecourt.

Ultimately, the Communist Party won the war in Vietnam, but it was at an extremely high cost. I distinctively remember my History teacher stating that the kill ratio for the Vietnam for US soldiers was 1:15. The problem that the US Army faced was that the North wouldn't fight them straight up and played this guerrilla warfare (and correctly so because the Vietnamese were never going to win straight up). If the Iraq, Afghanistan, Serbia, and Persian Gulf Wars (plus Soviet Union's Afghan war) have shown us anything it's that the US Army is great at quick strikes that quickly topple a regime and sent them into hiding. Anything drawn out in enemy territory eventually results in low morale and high costs with no clear end in sight.

As for China in real life. They're currently more strong based on their raw #s with their above average technology. In any potential war (assuming China doesn't use nukes), they're not going to beat their neighbors with superior technology because both South Korea and Japan's armies have superior technology (by a fair margin too). If they win, it's because they have larger air force fleet, a larger ground force, a larger navy, and more resources. China would win, but they would definitely suffer higher casualties.

In terms of active force, they're the largest in the world. Their tanks are so-so and still based on the Russian models (who aren't great tank builders themselves). South Korea's Black Panther is still by far the best tank in the Asia area (though also the most expensive in the world).

They have the world's second largest air force (I believe like 4000-5000 jets), but their technology for the mid tier planes are average at best. Their top of the line stealth fighters are impressive and right up there with the US' F-22 and Russia's PAK FA, but they're still in the prototype stage. Overall, their air force is probably top 3 if not 4 in the world.

Their navy is technologically utter crap right now. They have 1 former Soviet carrier and tons of subs, but the quality of the subs are really bad (bought or based on old Soviet models). Japan, South Korea, and India all have superior navies by a good margin. With that said, a strong navy is not as important for China in a potential war with a neighbor because strong navies are based on getting a landing force, getting a base on foreign territory (what the US carriers did in WWII) by using the carriers to project the air force over enemy territory, and finally using nuke subs.

Spoiler for Beside whsie, don't click. Dude. Just don't!:

About Mongol Empire

Spoiler:

Let me say this first, i am aware that Genghis Khan dead long before the period they invaded Viet Nam. But i used him to refer the Mongol Empire to you know Mongol Empire-the biggest empire in the history, not the small Mongol country now.
And the prince of Mongol(who eventually became the king) leads the third invasion. He successfully ran away, lucky for him.
Second, the Mongol Empire invade us in 2 routes:both land and sea. Look at China, it has land and sea too China is not a landlocked country like Laos so it's not an excuse that Viet Nam won because we had sea and naval battles while China didn't. And there were 3 wars, so it's not luck either.
And i don't even mention that their naval force is vastly out-number us to make up whatever skill they lacks.
And seriously, for an army that spread across the Asia and part of Europe, you think weather adaption is the key element that makes them lost?

So why did they lost if not because of noob troop, frail "girls" who can handle a little humid?
Because: as you know, Mongol Army favors mobility - cavalry and they love to play the bandit style(what naughty dudes!): They attack a designated area and then they rob for supply-military ration. They have next to nothing when it comes to logistic. They style is too dependence on outer factors.
So what Vietnamese did is that they employed "vuon khong, nha trong" tactic which literal means "abandoned garden, empty house". They happily and voluntarily handed the Mongol army the capital "Thang Long" (now Ha Noi) which has only houses and nothing else. Just brick, no food, no clothes, no nothing. Mongol tried to raid any village they found but has the same result. Ha Noi which is supposed to be their trophy turn out to be their cage. They starved and withered slowly and horrified.
Like characters in the horror movie "Vacancy", they are confined in an isolated place, strange and mystery, you don't know what's exactly going on outside but you know something is definitely going on and no matter what!..... you are dead, sooner or later.
Tran dynasty deserves the props for being able to inflict psychological horror and trauma without being called inhuman.
In that situation, things like strong military army, vast number, doesn't matter. You are outplayed and you are f*cked.

About Viet Nam war,

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler for wall of text:

It's not about communist vs capitalist(we are socialist now anyway), it's about Vietnamese vs American, just like Vietnamese vs France.
2 reasons why American fail: first they see VietNam not as a whole nation but as a group of individuals that doesn't even care about anything else but themselves: second, they fail to understand who Ho Chi Minh really is. If they can understand one of those 2, the whole war can be avoided.

Spoiler for because:

In the liberation against French colonists, you will never heard a single thing about "Republic of Vietnam", because they simply didn't even exist. They were formed in 1949(supported by America of course), four years after Viet Nam is liberated by Ho Chi Minh's party. Basically, it's "you did the job, now i take your credit".
And one key different between ARVN and VPA is that: ARVN has America and its allies troops while VPA didn't let a single Chinese or Russian troops in the rank.
"monetary debt, we can pay back; blood debt, we can't" is what VPA said to turn down Russian's offer. That makes one puppet and other one independence.
But leave it at that, you can disagree. That's only my opinion.

Spoiler for "Ho Chi Minh-VietNam's Enigma". My reference, from American's POV.:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhRdJOPOU0c

Back to the main topic, let me ask you first about what is war? How to fight the war properly?
In my opinion, war is the political conflict.
1)You got your objective, your purpose, you obtain it by whatever means suitable, against obstacles (countries, group of countries,...).
That's Zhuge Liang's thinking.
2)Something like, line up troops, pit them against each other, to see who's the mightiest is not war. It's f*cking *beep* *beep* *beep* battle board. It's just a game.
That's a child's thinking.
3)Just go straight on into the battle head on without thinking and disregarding the situation is just like the stupid red bull who always go for "red" color.
That's Lu Bu's thinking.

Vietnamese fight this war on three levels: political, military and diplomatic.
America, only wage their war mainly in the military aspect. They expects that Viet Nam will line themselves up before their guns' muzzle, get shoot and scared of their military might. Look at "2)", "3)", see anything similar?

Vietnamese is very adaptive. They are never shy to use enemy weapons. They are never shy to use unorthodox tactic (Dien Bien Phu's trench and artillery, Cu Chi's underground complex against America's airstrike,...).
America, well "airstrike, airstrike and more airstrike" pretty much summarizes what America army did in Viet Nam.
They are rigid and unadaptive.
An example

Spoiler:

when the M16-"the self-cleaning 20-round-mag gun"'s problem was not solved, GI found a temporary solution-improvise 30-round-mag AK-47. But they are forbid to do so because clearly, clearly using AK-47 along with M-16 will lead to friendly-fire due to the gun sound. Something which VC didn't give a F about when they used M-16, Ak-47 and America 1-ton bombs. In the end, American soldiers either had to request to use the old M-14 or deal with it.

Vietnam= Alex Mercer.
America= Red bull.

Spoiler for "declassified: Viet Cong"- the way they fight. That's my reference. American's POV:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKxmMARVX6Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S62KScn5gJQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_bl7gMRuDE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Io-fsgoMn60
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUQ52c2aFdM

"It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is most adaptable to change." That's pretty much tell us why American loose.

With all said and done, it is truth that American lost around 58,220 soldiers and Vietnamese lost more, both civilians, self-defense forces and conventional troops. But die hard or live free, i think that's what every single nation,every person would do when they are trampled and oppressed, when their country is invaded by foreign forces.
It's an old saying from a Vietnamese rebel leader to the French before he is executed: "Only when the West kill all Viet Nam's grass, there will be no more Vietnamese fight the West."
Be it's Chinese, French, American, Japanese,...(everyone except Korean,... Hey! Everything has an exception.), when it is not about your interest but your living, you will fight with an indomitable will and determination. That's what make you win the war. Doesn't matter if you are a small country or you have no military at all, you will win. Why? Because Viet Nam won against French while all Vietnamese freedom fighters were peasants. They can do it, you can do it.
Dat!! the point i try to get across ever since my precious comment.

About real-life China

Spoiler:

Coming from a Chinese, i think it's legit information. Thank you for providing it.
I'm familiar with small firearms. And i gotta say i'm not impressive with Chinese guns. I find what you said believable.

[Awrya]

Originally Posted by Forbin

Time to derail and bring the thread back on topic

Is it explained when tatsuya learned the ability to useMB on items he hasnt touched?
In the past arc he touched the bullets but in the NHD and Yokohama arc he just read the information id?

From what I understand, he doesn't need to touch objects to use MB on them, he needs first visual confirmation on the target, reading its Eidos, which allows him to track it with Elemental Sight, and MB can be used (using the Third Eye).

I believe you mean this part:

He clasped the bullets in his hands one by one, as if praying, then reloaded them back into the magazine.
Looking on, Kazama and Sanada had no idea what he was doing. They could faintly feel that powerful magic was at work, but as to exactly what techniques were being applied, they could not begin to guess.

He read its Eidos to allow him to see how far the bullets can travel, since his eyes can't see things 20km away. He probably couldn't read each bullets individual Eidos while they were still in the magazine, thus took them out and reloaded them into the gun.

[Ultragunner]

LOL, what a coincidence it is that now my friend has to do an assignment in politics about the Vietnam & its aftermath

Now we should really get back to the LN or else....

Oh, sth makes me wonder, if Tatsuya and the gang hadn't been in there on that day, AA would have been able to take over Yokohama. Then, would they immediately send bigger fleets to begin a full-scale invasion? I think it is highly possible

[Awrya]

Originally Posted by Ultragunner

Oh, sth makes me wonder, if Tatsuya and the gang hadn't been in there on that day, AA would have been able to take over Yokohama. Then, would they immediately send bigger fleets to begin a full-scale invasion? I think it is highly possible

I believe their aim was to steal information from the Magic Association branch in Yokohama and retreat, a much larger fleet was about to launch before Tatsuya annihilated them with the enemy base.
Their strategic magician was also on board, so they were serious in invading Japan.

"This photograph was taken 5 minutes ago. Based on this estimate, the enemy will launch two hours from now at the latest. Based on the scale of mobilization, rather than being a single strike, their aim appears to be occupying the Kyushu, Sanin, and Hokuriku regions."

[Oxide]

Originally Posted by Forbin

Time to derail and bring the thread back on topic

Is it explained when tatsuya learned the ability to useMB on items he hasnt touched?
In the past arc he touched the bullets but in the NHD and Yokohama arc he just read the information id?

actualy the way he used mb in the reminiscence chapter was highly irregular due to the distance ... MB technicaly is decomposition magic and work only slightly different from mist dispersal(anihilation reaction instead of "regular" decomposition) or any other regular magic(in terms of casting).

In reminiscence chapter he can't access eidos via elemental eyes normaly due to the distance from target information body(can't percive it can't read it), it is also impossible to find suitable eidos in vast amount of information in information dimension where spatial reference is nonexistant (i guess it would require to read ALL the eidos which seems to be technicaly impossible due to the vast amount of data).

Solution to this was preparation of information bodies(bullets), marking their eidos. Next information bodies were send physicaly to the target and their eidos were tracked via information dimension. When they were in range(eidos coordinates data analysis ) mb was activated ... all of those were targetting/distance issues which third eye solves ... Without going into specyfics third eye resolves this problem by providing remote perception of information bodies which allow Tatsuya to pick target and access its eidos direcly.