2008-02-21, 16:12 | Link #41 | |
Gregory House
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I think that's what professional translators strive for when doing DVDs, and having the advantage of including extra material with the DVD itself, such as booklets, not-so-important cultural references and the like should go there.
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Last edited by WanderingKnight; 2008-02-21 at 16:25. |
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2008-02-21, 17:57 | Link #42 |
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Join Date: Jun 2007
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Well that's just a bad example, although I would hope that they had a reason for making that note... I was referring to the sort of notations which help explain what is happening in the situation, or what is being portrayed by a visual gag. You can see them alot in Gintama, Lucky Star, Galaxy Angel, and similar anime which seem to play off things which most westerners would be unaware of. Yes, initially people may need to pause what they're seeing to be able to understand, but it's better than having no idea as to what is being said. In this case, the note is much better than trying to just fill what is being said with some western replacement... Which has ruined many series, or makes the scene just seem wrong. The side advantage to those notations is that it leads to a more informed and mentally engaged viewer. And let's be honest, most people who have been reading subs for a few years also tend to be fast readers out of necessity.
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2008-02-21, 18:18 | Link #43 | |
x264 Developer
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Another popular one is where a character says "HAI!" and the subtitle also says "HAI!"... with a translator's note that says "TL: Hai means yes in Japanese." Obviously, and fortunately, this is the exception, not the rule. |
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2008-02-21, 22:01 | Link #44 |
Florsheim Monster
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: UK
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I disagree on the food translation point. Sure, if it's onigiri, it can easily be translated as rice balls, but you have to remember that the Japanese have a whole different food set to the West. You could list the whole ingredient list of a type of food, but if the Japanese have only one word for it, that's gonna be hard to sub in the audio time. I personally prefer tl noting the cuisine, because I use the original words for all food types, no matter what country they're from. I mean, you wouldn't change Sauerkraut, would you? Or paella? Why change natto or ramen and things like that? How would you translate cous cous?
I feel the cultural differences of food would get in the way if either a) the food was translated, or b) it was untranslated, without a tl note. |
2008-02-21, 22:23 | Link #46 | |
Gregory House
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Besides, all the examples you gave are already established words in the English language. Ramen, natto, Sauerkraut, paella... most people already know what you're talking about, especially the anime-watching crowd. Now, if you've got a particularly obscure Japanese food, there's no freaking need to use the term and add a footnote on top. For a perfect example of what a good translation is, see a.f.k.'s translation of Lucky Star. That show dealt with a lot of food and the translations were impeccable, not a single footnote used to explain them and the meaning was perfectly conveyed. Disclaimer: I'm a student of English translation, so I have some pretty strong basis to say what I'm saying (ie: I'm not pulling all this out of my ass and it's not simply 'an opinion', it's a pretty wide-covered subject in translation theory)
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2008-02-21, 22:36 | Link #47 | |||
Florsheim Monster
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Anyway, this is almost a new discussion in itself, and as such, a moot point in this thread. |
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2008-02-22, 06:58 | Link #49 |
eyewitness
Join Date: Jan 2007
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There might be no absolutes, but there are rules professional translator stick to and fansubbers habitually break. And WanderingKnight probably knows them better than most people here.
Note that when I say "professional" this includes accomplished translators translating books of Nobel Laureates for respectable publishers, not just (if at all) some Joe Kawagawa who might work for Bandai for a warm meal a day.
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2008-02-22, 07:22 | Link #50 | |||||
Gregory House
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2008-02-22, 08:09 | Link #51 | |
Florsheim Monster
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Well, for a start, I don't believe I made that assertion. Of course, professional translators have a clear set of guidelines that they have to stick to - but then, a lot of the time, these lead to sacrificing literalness for naturalness. Having fansubbed anime for a couple of years now, I have a very basic understanding of Japanese, but even when I'm watching DVD releases, I notice how subs actually chop the language up quite heavily so that, in my view, quite a lot of atmosphere is lost, etc. I know that a number of translators on the fansubbing scene don't like this method of hack-slashing the language in translation, and prefer a much more literal sense. Hence why most fansub groups keep in suffixes when professional releases rarely do. Translation notes, in my opinion, have come about because of this desire to be literal, and the fact that "noodles" in place of ramen is not a clear enough translation for them. Yes, it would explain the concept in some way, but not fully. There was a thread about how much of the Japanese culture you can learn from anime, and I think actually, it's the TL notes you learn from, that actually teach us anything. All we'd get from the repeated mention of noodles is that the Japanese eat noodles a lot (and then, imagine the viewers' confusion when you suggest "pork noodles" or suchlike). Besides, the point of fansubbing is that there are no standards, no real guidelines to work from. There are accepted community practices but nothing ironclad. If a translator wishes to use footnotes, that's up to them, as long as it's not instantly translatable, like plan |
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2008-02-22, 08:59 | Link #52 | ||
Gregory House
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Anyways, I agree, there are no golden rules in fansub translations, but that's why professional translations will always be, speaking from the translation theory standpoint, better translations. PS: Quote:
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2008-02-22, 10:52 | Link #53 | |
Florsheim Monster
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That entirely depends on what the translators' individual purpose is with their translations. If we were talking about dubs and/or mainstream releases, then maybe your viewpoint is the most applicable, but when you're talking about fansub releases - you're over-simplifying the point. Apparently, you view translators who try to reduce the amount of information lost in translation as lazy, when they're clearly not, they're making valid decisions that usually take quite a lot of thought. I agree that a.f.k have good translators but it's not solely because of their translation decisions - those are merely different styles of translating (and in some cases, editing). And even then, they can't get away without using TL notes. Look at their Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei - that show would lose all sense if the notes were taken out, and it'd be useless for the viewer to watch half the scenes. So it's not as black and white as you suggest. And I'd suggest if you're a translator-in-training that instead of closing your mind to different techniques, that you actually take note of the choices other translators make in fansubs and DVD releases. No one translator can be wrong in their decisions (unless they warp the meaning of the line), they just have different tastes when they're translating. [\thread] |
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2008-02-22, 11:01 | Link #54 |
zetsuboushita...
Join Date: Dec 2004
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What is the point of anything in this world?
In the very very end, nothing matters. But people still do what they do because what they do is important to them. Why is it important to them? It gives them satisfaction, in some way. Some people say they do stuff out of responsibility, or out of "insert noble cause", etc, but in the end, these things are done to satisfy one's self. ie: The satisfaction that injustice has been removed from the world, etc. So my point is, people do what they want to do, for differing reasons. And I think practically any reason (or no reason at all, you know, just for fun?) is fine as long as long as it is within the law (lets not get into morality and stuff, thats a whole other debate). Fansubbers that do it for the fame? Good for them! Fansubbers that do it for "expanding the reach of anime"? Good for them! Is one better than the other? More "correct"? I dont think so. |
2008-02-22, 11:50 | Link #55 | ||
Gregory House
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I repeat, the translator must weigh its decisions always thinking on the context of the source material, the original audience and the target audience. Doing a word-for-word translation is almost never good, and when applying it to a spoken dialog in an audiovisual media it's much worse. Quote:
Anyways, the point in relationship with the topic was the comparison between professional DVD translators and fansub translators. While I haven't seen many DVD translations, and I know that there are bad professional translators, chances are much higher that there's gonna be someone who has studied at least a bit of theory. I've seen much more fansubs, so I've got a wider taste of the crappy translations in the medium. And remember, a crappy translation is not only spotted by those who know both languages--badly formulated phrases can be caught by anyone.
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Last edited by WanderingKnight; 2008-02-22 at 12:04. |
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2008-02-22, 12:28 | Link #56 |
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My philosophy in translation is to convey 100% of the meaning in a form that a NATIVE english (in my case, American) speaker would use. Literalness takes a backseat to native fluidity.
I don't think translation notes are a bad idea in fansubs, though. They should be kept brief and stay up on the screen for long enough to read without pausing (usually 10-12 seconds). Most groups fail in that regard. For instance, I recently subbed a script that referred to a disease called "beriberi". I don't think most Americans would know what beriberi is without a note. (beriberi is the ENGLISH name of it). -Tofu |
2008-02-22, 14:18 | Link #57 | |
Gregory House
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But I think this conversation is drifting too much off topic. Someday I'll make a thread about it to discuss it thoroughly. I want to make clear, though, that I respect fansubbers and their work, and I'm extremely grateful for lending me a way to watch anime before I knew Japanese.
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2008-02-22, 15:47 | Link #58 | |
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But in a fansub, I think the more information you can convey to the viewer the better. No need to dumb down for them. Nothing wrong with that, right? Maybe in your current or more advanced classes, you'll be formally taught how to cater your translation to the target audience. -Tofu |
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2008-02-22, 16:59 | Link #59 |
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Join Date: Jun 2007
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The key thing is that often alot less effort seems to go into the commercially produced products from a translation standpoint than what several unpaid fansub groups tend to display. Even if that effort may be seen as misplaced by some, it still lends to a better understanding about what is being conveyed in that scene. Yes, most translation notes about food aren't really necessary, but they can help to understand the situation, or a characters personality a bit better.
Translation issues are just one of the things which, as I see it, can make or break the viewing experience. This will probably always be something that fansubs do better because fansub teams are constantly getting feedback about what they've done wrong. Companies often don't catch their mistakes till long after the product has been shipped, and often don't make efforts to fix them in later volumes since viewers of the series are already familiar with things as they were. So in essence, the point of fansubbing is to ensure that the product is being experienced in a manner which is as close to the original as possible despite the differences in language or culture. Afterall, not all of us are as equally informed about Japanese culture, and not all of us want things dumbed down or westernized because of our unfamiliarity. |
2008-02-22, 17:08 | Link #60 | |||
Gregory House
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What I often mean by avoiding footnotes is the fact that I'd like to see excellent translations, such as a.f.k.'s legendary way of handling the "boku/watashi" scene in Kanon, more often. It certainly makes my experience more pleasant, even if I understand both languages (well, I'm not 100% fluent in Japanese, but I'm JLPT3 so I guess it counts ). Quote:
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