2008-03-14, 11:58 | Link #922 | |||||||
Blazing General
Join Date: May 2006
Location: CA
Age: 37
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Basically they say the name of one of their lightweight spells but end up firing a single beam that looks smaller than their 'full' beam spells. They also don't use the spell rings IIRC. Quote:
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Last edited by Kikaifan; 2008-03-14 at 12:47. |
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2008-03-14, 13:03 | Link #923 | |||||||
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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We can, of course, abscribe it to stupidity. But along with all other problems, it is probably easier IMO to just say they aren't beams. Quote:
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Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2008-03-14 at 13:18. |
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2008-03-14, 14:28 | Link #924 | |
Sleep beneath the flowers
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Lording above all of humanity >;3
Age: 34
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Also I doubt hard plate does anything. Ginga's barrier jacket has what looks like a hard plate breastplate but by going on this logic it would imply someone whose barrier jacket is say... A knight's armor should be stronger then say Nanoha's which is a variation on a magical girl outfit. I believe a barrier jacket's look is purely cosmetic (With some exceptions, since Fate's barrier jacket is so revealing in order to make her "faster") and even if your jacket was just some dental floss it'd be as protecting as a suit of armor. Granted the mages both had the same level of magical talent. A jacket's "defense" probably stems from the mage's talent. (So hence Nanoha's barrier jacket would be a lot stronger then say Erio's, Erio is only a C rank or B rank mage isn't he?)
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2008-03-14, 15:59 | Link #925 | ||
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Join Date: May 2007
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2008-03-14, 16:06 | Link #926 | ||
Sleep beneath the flowers
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Lording above all of humanity >;3
Age: 34
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I'm just saying I wouldn't imagine if you thought up a barrier jacket that looked like a suit of platemail would be any more protecting then Nanoha's.
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2008-03-14, 16:22 | Link #927 |
Once and Current Subber
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Well, let's analyze barrier jacket coverage, shall we?
First off, we can assume that there is, at the least, an argument for not just going out in a barrier jacket done up like a suit of plate mail, as nobody does that (and it's the rather obvious thing to do, if there was an advantage to be gained, huh?) If we look at the barrier jackets used by TSAB people, they tend to have pretty full body coverage, excluding the head. The standard uniform is basically a normal military outfit with added breastplate. Chrono's duster-jacket is not only badass, but covers basically everything except his noggin. Crucially, I don't remember anyone using a helmet anywhere, which is -really- suggestive; obviously there is some sort of head protection provided by the barrier jacket, or they'd definitely go in for some kind of head-covering. (Qualify this: it's an anime, helmets cover heads/hair/faces, making characters hard to identify, so you can expect that named characters will not wear helmets even when otherwise indicated. Starship Troopers movie syndrome.) The most exposure of any named character's barrier jacket is Subaru, who has big uncovered areas (legs and torso). Not truly proof - Subaru's much more durable than standard-issue human and can get by with less protection, possibly. Others have mentioned Sonic-mode Fate, though I don't think that's so much a matter of "weight" as "repurposing" - some of her BJ elements are devoted to propulsion instead of protection. That said, it's obvious that the barrier jackets can protect even exposed flesh - Elio's legs, Tia's arms and legs, Subaru's stomach and legs, Hayate's legs (possibly an oversight in the design phase there - how important does a paraplegic think her legs are, anyway?), practically everybody's head. Thus, the protective capabilities aren't just "tough magical cloth" and presumably aren't enhanced by sticking actual metal in there. (Then again, who knows?) |
2008-03-14, 19:28 | Link #928 | ||||
Sword Wielding Penguin
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Occam's Razar, a philisophical and scientific understanding that when there is a lack of hard scientific proof, when pressented with multiple possible solutions, the simplest solution is most often the correct one.
IOW: Nature Favors Simplicity. And the simplest answer is usually the right one. Quote:
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Last edited by AdmiralTigerclaw; 2008-03-14 at 20:00. |
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2008-03-14, 21:21 | Link #929 | |||||||
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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On the other hand, the knights originally asked for armor before settling on knight-like clothes. Let's face it. Armor ain't fun. Nobody asks for it if they can do as well dressed in pajamas. Quote:
As for the lack of helmets ... well, we know that helmets are protective, and still not everyone puts them on when using their motorbike. Of course, given SS Ep07, maybe the truth is that the jacket's covered positions are equally unprotective (not quite the same thing), but then we'll really need hard plate... Oh yeah. While we are on the topic of things that have penetrated barrier jackets, how could I have forgotten Precia's whip? A real bullet stopper - Fate's jacket... Quote:
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2008-03-14, 23:52 | Link #930 | ||
Sword Wielding Penguin
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The heart is a near instant kill, but any major injury puts Grim on Standby. Injuries to major arteries could result in fatal blood loss. And you could get injuries like this from a lucky puncture wound to the leg. |
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2008-03-15, 00:00 | Link #931 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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2008-03-15, 00:04 | Link #932 |
Sword Wielding Penguin
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Which also have counters, called 'armor piercing'.
Like I said, to get GOOD physical armor against today's gear, you need to get the good materials... usually high density, and very heavy. And to get that in any decent coverage, you'll have to cover the body pretty well. Which, if you don't have a mechanism to counter it, leaves you with too much bulk, and no mobility, and that in turn, allows the bigger weapons to hit you more easily. (And why I opt for powered exoskeletons to support the armor. All the mobility of a man, all the armor of a mini-TANK.) |
2008-03-15, 01:44 | Link #933 |
Truth Martyr
Author
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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Just something I wanna chime in: during Operation Enduring Freedom, US troops basically had just vests covering the chest and back. What happened was that while they had decent protection front and back, but no side protection and groin protection; IBA vests protect more areas on the body than the earlier vests.
As for the plates, US body armor has been using plates since the early 90s; read Black Hawk Down: the Rangers and Delta operators had insert plates for their body armor, but most only put their plates in front, leaving their backs unprotected. IBA isn't really that new... well, except for being the first type of body armor to have protection for the groin. Compared to 10, 15 years ago, IBA (and the USMC variant FSBEV, which is held to be better) protect more parts of the body. They also reduce your mobility and you cannot run as fast. And yes, as ATC said, it's a neverending race between body armor and armor-piercing rounds. At the moment, the side which can whip out the HMGs and use them wins: NO body armor available right now can tank a .50cal round. (And I've heard that body armor makes things worse if you're shot with the Mk211 Mod 0 Raufuss HE/API round, since it slows the round long enough for the HE to detonate. Apparently if used on human targets, the round blows through and the HE detonates afterwards. And this isn't even talking about the AP penetrator... mind you, this is a moot point, since most people die from being hit by .50cal rounds.) I'm thinking that perhaps the reason barrier jackets are so light may have to do with mass and inertia... I'll think about it more and come back later when I've thought it out more properly.
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2008-03-15, 04:18 | Link #934 |
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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On the subject of armor: Saying 'Barrier Jackets don't protect areas that are not clothed' makes no sense. Sure, for people like Teana and Nanoha, who are not in te frontlines, it makes sense, but when you look at how many melee fighters leave their legs uncovered, it loses that sense.
To explain, in armed melee combat, one of the primairy areas to get hit is the leg. Arms are close secondery, torso is tertairy. A melee fighter leaving his legs uncovered is risking serious and easy injuries, even though armor can be put on without removing or even reducing mobillity. If all that is needed is a layer of cloth, then it makes even less sense to leave the legs unguarded. Now, if we look at the amount melee fighters in Nanoha leave their legs uncovered (Signum, Vita, Erio, Arf, Subaru) it is safe to asume that Barrier Jackets do in fact cover for unclothed areas. The only other alternative would be to asume nobody in Nanoha save Vivio knows anything about melee fights. Last edited by Keroko; 2008-03-15 at 04:56. |
2008-03-15, 05:07 | Link #937 | |||||||||||||||||||||
Loveable Jerk
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Also say you got someone to just look at Nanoha having no preconceptions do you think they would look at it and the jackets and go. “Hmm you know despite them being called jackets and armor and stuff having different modes I bet that the material is acutally totally irrelevant and instead it’s acutally invisible force fields protecting them from harm”. That really is basiclly your argument in a nutshell and it’s rather stupid IMO. Barrier jackets have never really shown resilience to bladed or kinetic weapons mages ability to mess with gravity seems to allow them to sustain more blunt impact force then you’d expect possibly by screwing with inertial and spreading impacts (which even modern soft armor can do), but that’s a different then deflecting bullets or knives. It also neatly helps explain why guns are outlawed if the jackets provide marginal protection at best and almost none on uncovered areas then while one guy with a gun might not be much of a threat a platoon dug into hard cover Quote:
That said let's face it Hayate at that time was not any kind of armorer or tactical genius when she thought this stuff up as you noted she thought up "knight like cloths" not armor, but basiclly glorified costumes. The Knights might have called them "armor" out of habit, but let's face it wasn't "armor" under sane definition. Spoiler for Armor:
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We've never seen anyone hit int he head, probably because it would kill them instantly given the lack of protection for there skulls. Quote:
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And when one can FLY via anti-gravity this is even less of an issue. Quote:
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A: They were 9 or 10 B: Had there "armor" designed by said 9 and 10 year olds. Yeah sure you could argue they should know better now, but momentum is a powerful thing and it's worked so far so what motive would they have to change? Further in this case IMO you’re using a real world examples that doesn’t really work here. Yes when your only method of movement is your legs they’re indeed a prime target, but when you and your enemy can FLY the equation changes drastically and they become vastly less important. After all most cuts to the leg are intended to decrease the opponents mobility against an enemy that uses flight for that mobility this is rather worthless. The only real point to cut at them is to in duce bleeding, which you could do just as easily to other areas so the legs lose much of there importance as targets. Never mind that we see a bunch of extremity injuries during the show which would tend to say that indeed they aren't that well protected. Also you seem to just assume that this cloth will be light; in fact cloth thick enough to act as armor weighs an amount like armor too even without armor plates a modern Kevlar flak jacket weighs around 10 pounds for instance despite being made of "Cloth". Quote:
Further more it was acutally rather common for men to have a helmet and breast plate and no real protection on the legs or arms in real life. Full plate while it had it's upsides was somewhat encumbering and it was difficult to march in it also reduced endurance of even very fit men considerably. This is the same reason modern troops still normally only have vests and helmets despite experiments with full armor systems; that shit is heavy, HOT (a commonly overlooked fact is that body armor can act allot like winter clothing... even if you happen to be in a desert), and constricting. I'm not arguably that everyone in Nanoha should start wearing plate armor or massive bomb suits as those both have downsides as noted, and might not fit there situations best. I will argue thought that the Jacket IS what provides the protection and they all ought to be wearing frikkin helmets and heavier torso protection in most cases. Last edited by Tk3997; 2008-03-15 at 05:35. |
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2008-03-15, 05:31 | Link #938 |
Adeptus Animus
Author
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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I'm not buying the 'because they're stupid' argument. Yes, it was stated that the amount of clothing defines the strength of the defense, but that can be explained differently, and far more logically: The Barrier Jacket generate a Field and Barrier, this is a fact. Now, if the Barrier Jacket is what generates this, then logically, when there is more jacket (as in, more fabric) then the defenses become stronger, as there is more source to generate said defences.
We have seen those 'invisible' defenses in action. The 'Fate through the building' part is not a good argument because of the screencut I'll admit, it could work either way. During A's, however, Signum and Fate scored glancing blows on eachother, and you clearly saw Barriers popping up. Now do note that neither was focussed on defending in that scene, both were launching attacks: |
2008-03-15, 05:51 | Link #939 |
Blazing General
Join Date: May 2006
Location: CA
Age: 37
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I just mentioned that talking to Ark but I guess no one read it.
Also Fate's Plasma Lancer shot in the same fight hits Signum straight in the face (and she sure as hell didn't look like she was 'expecting it') and does nothing. And the blast on that one looked comparable to photos I've seen of tanks getting hit by missiles. There's nothing strange about the IV's being able to penetrate a barrier jacket, they're magitech weapons. I doubt their blades compare to Armed Devices, but if they can stealth I don't see what's odd about them having powered weapons.
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2008-03-15, 08:10 | Link #940 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
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You will notice, in your example, that the blade was trailing very easy through the so-called barrier. Sure, it is interacting. Whether it will have stopped or even significantly hindered the blow is a whole different story. [QUOTE=Kikaifan;1461834]I just mentioned that talking to Ark but I guess no one read it. Also Fate's Plasma Lancer shot in the same fight hits Signum straight in the face (and she sure as hell didn't look like she was 'expecting it') and does nothing. And the blast on that one looked comparable to photos I've seen of tanks getting hit by missiles. Quote:
Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2008-03-15 at 08:30. |
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