NBA and College Basketball Thread

[kuroishinigami]

That was nerve-wrecking. Can't believe they win with 23 turnovers. Hopefully James is okay for next game(which should be the case if this is just normal cramp).

[X102reddragon]

Shit. I'm glad the spurs won, but man I feel sorry for James. I thought he was going to pass out there for a bit.

[Xagzan]

That was one peculiar game.

I guess cramps gotten after 3 quarters in an NBA Finals game in a 90 degree arena are different from cramps you get in the middle of the night waking up, cause I've had those and they go away in a couple of minutes.

Still, you know Popovich isn't celebrating. Probably yelling his head off about 23 turnovers. Well, being 1-0 is better than the reverse, but still, they were up 1-0 last year too.

[kuroishinigami]

If there's one thing I learn from following the Spurs all these years, they usually follow a big turnover game with a low one, so we should see (relative, since this is the Heat)improvement on that front in next game. Hopefully they can keep their hot shooting in next game too even after the A/C turn on

[Last Sinner]

Those turnovers were well offset by Duncan shooting 90% from the field and the team going 52% from 3-pointers. Not to mention Miami had 18 turnovers of their own.

Miami are always going to have problems containing Duncan. The perimeter shooting is something they can control and what got them back into it last year.

[frivolity]

I think LeBron probably had heat exhaustion. I used to play soccer in a poorly-ventilated sports hall while I was in high school, and my vision would start turning purple (dark purple, similar to the colour of iodine) after an hour of strenuous activity. I couldn't even sit down and had to lie down with my legs raised to stimulate blood flow to the brain.

[itisjustme]

Lame Heat you are if you can't handle some temperature. :P

The A/C failure was the same for everyone so I don't think that's an excuse, you know how people say Lebron isn't clutch etc? I think part of it is he spends way too much energy trying to do everything on the court and his tank runs low in the last quarter. Like Jordan defended and scored but he left playmaking and rebounding to others, I know it's part of his game but maybe he should try to trust his teammates a bit more/be less obsessed with stuffing the stat sheet.

[demino_hellsin]

I agree that LeBron is doing everything but I don't think it's because of the stat sheet. Might be the lack of trust, might be the lackluster performance of Heat overall when he isn't on the court.

[frivolity]

The reason why LeBron has to do everything is because of the top-heavy structure of the Heat team. I posted in the previous page that the Spurs big 3 are only paid $30m in total, while the Heat big 3 are paid $56.6m.

With the current salary cap being $58.68m and the luxury tax cap at $71.75m, the Heat simply don't have a lot of room to work with when it comes to signing players for the PG and C positions. That is why we see LeBron having to cover some of the playmaking and rebounding duties on his team - duties that are traditionally the primary responsibilities of the PG and C respectively. And because Miami has even less room to fill up their bench with quality players - aside from signing veterans who agree take less money for the chance of a championship (e.g: Ray Allen) - LeBron has to play heavy minutes with little rest.

The Spurs, on the other hand, have a very deep squad because of their salary structure. Aside from the GDP big 3, they have a second GDL big 3 made up of Green, Diaw, and Leonard, as well as a strong bench. This allows them to rest their key players and spread responsibility more equally across the team.

[itisjustme]

Yeah but Duncan is almost 40, Parker probably could get a better contract somewhere else but didn't the Heat 3 already take a salary cut to play together? Many teams have worse players being paid as much, I think it's pretty amazing they could even sign Ray Allen for the bench. You have the best player and the best SG already fffs. Leave playmaking to Wade, Chalmers isn't a bad player either. They have good players on the bench too it's nothing like the Thunders. Bosch needs to pull his weight though yeah he needs to share more rebounding and scoring.

[Mr. DJ]

LeBron cramp memes are out in full force

[Elo the Blue]

Originally Posted by itisjustme

Lame Heat you are if you can't handle some temperature. :P

The A/C failure was the same for everyone so I don't think that's an excuse, you know how people say Lebron isn't clutch etc? I think part of it is he spends way too much energy trying to do everything on the court and his tank runs low in the last quarter. Like Jordan defended and scored but he left playmaking and rebounding to others, I know it's part of his game but maybe he should try to trust his teammates a bit more/be less obsessed with stuffing the stat sheet.

Is this a joke?

Everyone felt the Heat but who else on that court is as finely tuned an athlete as James with his physique? No one. World class sprinters pull up with cramps. It happens and prevents them from doing anything. It's not an excuse; it's a fact.

Regarding your clutch "reasoning", so you're just going to ignore the numerous time LeBron has been clutch in the 4th? He stuffs the stat sheet because he's the best player on the planet and if he doesn't do as much as he can for his team, the Heat would struggle mightily, just like we saw when he missed the rest of the game. Should past greats like Jordan, Bird, Magic, Hakeem and others have been "be less obsessed with stuffing the stat sheet" in the Finals? Ridiculous.

Originally Posted by itisjustme

Yeah but Duncan is almost 40, Parker probably could get a better contract somewhere else but didn't the Heat 3 already take a salary cut to play together? Many teams have worse players being paid as much, I think it's pretty amazing they could even sign Ray Allen for the bench. You have the best player and the best SG already fffs. Leave playmaking to Wade, Chalmers isn't a bad player either. They have good players on the bench too it's nothing like the Thunders. Bosch needs to pull his weight though yeah he needs to share more rebounding and scoring.

Chalmers isn't a bad player but he routinely picks the worsts moments to make wild drives to the rim and turn the ball over. Cole has been the better player these play-offs.

The Heat actually have to get Bosh the rock for him to pull his weight offensively. That he didn't even have a shot the last 9 minutes of the game is ridiculous.

[itisjustme]

You know I was thinking of something. NBA and american sports in general are way too obsessed with stars and stats and rankings and talks of "all time". I like Duncan but I've been sick of hearing everyone mention he's best PF ever or top 5 all time every other time they mention him. All the debates about whether LBJ is better than MJ, before he even won anything. The other day I heard First Take talk about LBJ being top small forward ahead of Bird, etc etc. Is Tom Brady top 2 QB of all time or is he number 6. Ffffs.

I watch football (soccer). They play under the sun when it's 95 and they play when it's snowing. If you're injured then tough for you. There's one individual award people care about and the rest of the time it's about winning trophies. I rarely ever hear people talk about, is Cruyff top 3 of all time, is Cristiano Ronaldo best winger of all time, is Xavi better than Zidane because his passing % was higher, what's the top 10 players right now, etc. There's almost no talk of advanced metrics and whatnot. People respect that different players contribute in different ways without trying to measure the size of their wang every other day.

[Elo the Blue]

Originally Posted by itisjustme

You know I was thinking of something. NBA and american sports in general are way too obsessed with stars and stats and rankings and talks of "all time". I like Duncan but I've been sick of hearing everyone mention he's best PF ever or top 5 all time every other time they mention him. All the debates about whether LBJ is better than MJ, before he even won anything. The other day I heard First Take talk about LBJ being top small forward ahead of Bird, etc etc. Is Tom Brady top 2 QB of all time or is he number 6. Ffffs.

I watch football (soccer). They play under the sun when it's 95 and they play when it's snowing. If you're injured then tough for you. There's one individual award people care about and the rest of the time it's about winning trophies. I rarely ever hear people talk about, is Cruyff top 3 of all time, is Cristiano Ronaldo best winger of all time, is Xavi better than Zidane because his passing % was higher, what's the top 10 players right now, etc. There's almost no talk of advanced metrics and whatnot. People respect that different players contribute in different ways without trying to measure the size of their wang every other day.

Not that I always endorse them but debates like those are simply a part of entertainment in general. Whether it's sports, music, movies, people are always going to disagree when it comes to comparisons. That's just the way it is.

There's nothing wrong with Duncan being considered the best PF ever. LeBron had already had a long enough career to warrant comparisons to Michael before he won anything. He's also certainly warranted being considered better than Bird at this point in his career too.

I follow football myself. It's a completely different and much more team-oriented sport, so of course the emphasis on individual awards isn't as high. However, players still put a premium on individual accolades. And either you've been living under a rock or just ignored the chatter but modern players get compared to legends all the time! Forget players that have actually won anything; teenagers get compared to legends relentlessly. Every Youtube sensation is the next so-and-so.

Your point about advanced metrics makes zero sense either. There's much more room for statical analysis in basketball than there is footy. Still, statistics have become a much bigger part in analysing football in recent years. As for your last sentence, let's not pretend "wang-measuring" debates don't happen in football.

[Xagzan]

Everyone's been calling game 1 the cramp game, or the hot game, etc.

Meanwhile I've been trying to make "Swelter Skelter" catch on to no avail

Originally Posted by Elo the Blue

LeBron had already had a long enough career to warrant comparisons to Michael before he won anything.

I hope you mean before Michael won anything.

[Preciize]

Feeling sorry for LeBron getting bashed all over the internet. Can't tell if people are ignorant and never suffered cramps before or just being irrational cause it's LeBron. Like LeBron, I suffer from cramps, though it's always in my calf. I can say that once you feel that sharp pain in the affected muscle(s), you can call it a day :\

I also keep hearing the excuse that the other players in the court didn't have any cramps. Well, everyone's body is built differently.

[frivolity]

The analysis of players in football and basketball are very different for several reasons, but the main one stems from the fact that football has 11 players on the field, while basketball only has 5. There are two main implications of this.

First, in basketball, having only five players means that every player must be able to do everything to some extent. All players must attack and all players must defend. Everyone has to be able to shoot, pass, rebound, block, and set screens/get steals. Different positions will of course prioritise different things, but every player has to be able to do a little bit of everything, especially since the transition between small-ball and big-man lineups often means that players have to be able to play multiple positions. In football, with eleven players on the field, the roles are much more diverse and players can specialise in either attacking or defending, with the most specialised role being the goalkeeper. Due to the higher level of specialisation, comparison across roles is less relevant in football as compared to basketball.

The second implication of basketball having less players is that the effect of a single superstar is heavily magnified. Obviously, having one superstar in a team of eleven with diverse roles will not mean as much as having one superstar in a lineup of five players where every position is required to do everything. According to Daryl Morey, the Rockets GM, by far the best way to win a championship is to get a superstar player, because almost all championship teams in history have at least one superstar, with the only exception I know of in recent years being the Pistons in 2004. There are only two ways to get a superstar player in the NBA - through the draft (which is why we see lots of teams tanking this year since the current draft class is very talented), and through trade (very difficult because most teams are unwilling to give away their franchise players). This is why there's so much trade rumour whenever a superstar's contract is about to run out.

A third reason why the NBA focuses so much on superstars is because of its salary structure. Teams in the NBA have a soft cap on salaries, and another threshold above which they have to pay luxury tax. There is also a max contract that players can sign. Overall, the salary cap means that there generally won't be a Real-Madrid-equivalent in the NBA. This is why the Heat made news when their big 3 all took less money to play together. It is also why Kobe generated uproar among Lakers fans when he signed a $24.5m-a-year contract, since it completely wipes out the possibility of signing two stars. When it comes to football, Real Madrid signing another star is not news because they're the Galacticos after all - a galaxy of stars!

[itisjustme]

^But Real still hadn't win a single champions league in over a decade before this season. :P What you said is true and I don't disagree but the bench in basketball contributes more in a game, they get more minutes and they can make up for a third or even half of your score sheet like the Spurs have shown.

Yeah of course the best players tend to win and I agree they have more of an impact in the NBA, but I struggle to remember a superstar who's won it by himself without good support. Plus I think players like Dirk or Parker aren't really treated as superstars as such, what annoys me is how the media have developed a cult of the individual that makes us forget this is still a team sport and focus more about glamour than winning.

What really made me think about it is how everytime I watch the NBA or ESPN someone will sure to mention Duncan the best best PF ever, or if they talk about Westbrook I can be sure someone will say "most athletic PG we've ever seen" or "top five player." Plus all the all time rankings and current rankings and whatnot. I mean it's fun once in a while but hearing that on TV every other day gets old really fast. :P

[Elo the Blue]

Originally Posted by Xagzan

I hope you mean before Michael won anything.

No, I didn't. You can compare playing styles and stats and disregard rings.

[frivolity]

Originally Posted by itisjustme

^But Real still hadn't win a single champions league in over a decade before this season. :P What you said is true and I don't disagree but the bench in basketball contributes more in a game, they get more minutes and they can make up for a third or even half of your score sheet like the Spurs have shown.

Yeah of course the best players tend to win and I agree they have more of an impact in the NBA, but I struggle to remember a superstar who's won it by himself without good support. Plus I think players like Dirk or Parker aren't really treated as superstars as such, what annoys me is how the media have developed a cult of the individual that makes us forget this is still a team sport and focus more about glamour than winning.

What really made me think about it is how everytime I watch the NBA or ESPN someone will sure to mention Duncan the best best PF ever, or if they talk about Westbrook I can be sure someone will say "most athletic PG we've ever seen" or "top five player." Plus all the all time rankings and current rankings and whatnot. I mean it's fun once in a while but hearing that on TV every other day gets old really fast. :P

Not really arguing here, just presenting the perspective that a team's front office would have in terms of assembling their lineup.

The NBA's salary cap means that there's two extreme approaches that a team can take, assuming that the team does not go above the luxury tax threshold of ~$72m. First, they can pay all their players $4.8m each. According to this site, $4.8m corresponds to the 140th player on the list, which would mean that the roster is filled with 15 mid-level players. Alternatively, they can have three max contracts on their team and fill the remaining 12 spots with low-level players.

According to Daryl Morey, the latter approach would be far more successful. Morey is the analytics guru of the NBA, and his analysis shows that the one variable that has remained constant over the years in terms of increasing the probability of a championship is the presence of superstars. The effects of other variables such as pace, physicality, size, age, offense-defense-focus, etc, have all varied over time, but having superstars has remained key to winning championships. This is why Morey, as GM for the Rockets, centred all trades around the eventual goal of obtaining a superstar, landing Harden and Howard, and still aiming for Love or Melo as a third star (note that I don't agree with the plan to get a 3rd star because I'd rather get a few decent veteran role players to shore up the defense and build up the team's mental toughness).

In practice, most teams today won't be on one of the two extremes, and will take an approach that's somewhere in the spectrum between. The Spurs are closer to the first approach, with no max contracts, while the Heat are closer to the second, with three max contracts and $8m above the luxury tax threshold. Part of the reason is that the Spurs front office acknowledges that San Antonio is a small market and it is impossible to run a sustainable franchise if they take a superstar-at-all-cost approach. That is why Popovich's team-first style is a perfect fit for them, and is also why the Spurs place great emphasis on character when selecting their players. Nevertheless, the Heat front office, manned by Pat Riley, is extremely good at attracting talented players to join them, with the formation of the big 3 and later addition of Ray Allen being the best moves by a GM in recent years.

Of course, a superstar-at-all-cost approach will lead to disaster if mishandled, with the Knicks being the prime example. Their top 5 salaries alone already bring them over the luxury tax limit and yet they've failed to make it into the playoffs