JPOP: Decline and the silence of the fans.

[Athena]

Originally Posted by starlol

Jpop has always been 'exclusive'.

Btw, kpop also has it's own music streaming websites from it's major search engine as well.
The reason kpop is so dominating right now is because it has members from china and other countries. EXO is a popular idol male group that has 8 korean members and 4chinese members.
Miss A has 4members and half of them are from china.f(x) has 5 members and 2/5 members are chinese.
You don't see all that in jpop.

While I don't think having so many Chinese members play a determinant role in k-pop's emergence, it does indeed try to be internationally friendly. Groups have their Chinese sub-section like Exo-M or SJ-M, Japanese adaptations of their songs and even English subtitles in MVs with LOEN Ent videos.

Also, Dhomochevsky and houkoholic's reasoning are pretty much what the Japanese music industry think. There's no real attempt for Japan to get more exposure from the outside, and as long as it sells, it's OK. On the other side, it means the industry have no right to bring the Japanophobia argument if it suddenly pays attention to international recognition.

[KiraYamatoFan]

Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky

So where does this idea come from, that japanese pop music absolutely HAS to go international?

Since K-pop dropped the gloves and found ways to go international. I don't see why it's not worth a punt for J-pop to try having a more serious shot abroad, especially the US where K-pop found its way infiltrating the market. For me, a lack of adventurously minded individuals in Japanese music is as criminal as any lack of ambition in any business from any country; bloody ridiculous.

edit: the article SeijiSensei posted earlier today in the "News Stories" thread proves my point further when it comes to what good comes out of working things beyond the domestic market.

[sa547]

I repeat: The Japanese will not. Let me quote about this:

Asian Stars and The USA: A History

Hikaru Utada: I am a celebrated singer-songwriter in Japan who is beloved by the entire country. I grew up in New York and speak perfect, unaccented English. I'm going to record an interesting, unique CD for the U.S., entirely in English, and try to make it in Hollywood.

USA:

BoA: Hello! I am an incredibly strong vocalist with a range people dream of and dance skills America hasn't seen in a pop star since Usher. Not only am I a legend in my home country of South Korea, I managed to become a best selling artist in Japan, paving the way for future Korean artists to find Asian-wide success. Now, I'm going to debut in the states with a dance CD written by proven hit makers.

USA:

Wonder Girls: We're a fun, colorful five member girl group reminiscent of the Spice Girls. We sing the sort of sugar-cute pop that's popular in Asia but not as accepted in the U.S. We are bravely going to give up our massive popularity in South Korea to promote our sugar-cute style to teenagers in America, slowly building up hype, never losing our flare. We will spend years and years working on our English and our debut, hooking up with established stars like Akon in the process. We even made a movie with Teen Nick.

USA:

Jin Akanishi: I'm a former member of an incredibly popular Japanese boy band. I left them for good to explore a career in the USA, studying English and working to achieve my dream, to sing and dance as an Asian star in America.

USA:

Girls' Generation: We're flirting with this market, performing on national, network television twice with our English song The Boys, written by one of Michael Jackson's old song writers. We are nine slim, attractive girls, two of whom are from the states and speak perfect English.

USA:

Psy: lol omg guys watch me dance like a horsey.

USA: YES! EXCELLENT!

Psy: Wait what?

This is why, with the exception of some Asians who sings just like Celine Dion, most types of Asian pop music -- whether it's Japanese, Chinese or the obvious Korean -- have true difficulty penetrating the Western market. The only time they do get actual exposure -- mostly negative -- is when they commit some gaffe on camera or a dumb mistake on Youtube and it becomes viral.

For that industry, it's safer and more profitable to focus on the domestic market, than to repeat a Pink Lady disaster (hence why it pays to know history of Japanese pop music). Besides, Western pop music is still pretty much stronger and has global reach and influence.

[asaqe]

Psy simply was showcasing south korea's female kpop idols who would defy the expectations of the netizens of perceived conservativeness while backing it up with a dance craze which is a nice icebreaker. Aside from SNSD Hyuna only took off after giving the perceived ideals of a JPOP/KPOP idol the proverbial finger bt being as edgy as the censors would allow. Ditto for Gain who helped keep some of the edgy side of KPOP intact in the 2008 aegyo wave.

And even if they dont really poke into the market at least maintaining a good reputation would help with the news. Nowadays people are focused on looking at Japan's gaffes

[houkoholic]

Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky

So where does this idea come from, that japanese pop music absolutely HAS to go international?

The irony is that it is the Japanese themselves talking about this, A LOT.
And here also lies the other most frustrating thing about Jpop (or even anime and other entertainment) industry - the Japanese government and some of the entertainment industry figures keeps beating the "Cool Japan" drum where the supposed aim is that by giving government subsidy to help the entire Japanese entertainment industry to make Japanese culture a major export product and turn the Japanese economy into one which has "soft power" ie not exporting physical goods like electronics and cars where Japan's competitiveness is declining rapidly to the other Asian countries but shift the export to focus on cultural and entertainment goods such as movies and songs - former PM of Japan Aso Taro was famous for pushing this idea during his term. In reality the people I've talked with tells me that the people involved just treat it as free government pork to be used and abused but never really used to actually promote Japanese cultures such as jpop/anime/manga/games overseas (and I don't doubt them, seeing as from how I see it working before, the entire "Cool Japan" program is a complete waste of money - I mean what is the point of spending the money on creating things like a maid cafe and host events in Osaka airport? It would be safe to assume people whom have decided to fly to Japan in the first place and is physically in Osaka is already interested in Japanese culture in the first place! It's especially frustrating looking at it from a few of the people I know whom ARE actually interested in prompting Japanese pop culture overseas). So go figure, from what I understand Korea's government is actually involved in setting up programs to promote their entertainment industry as well, but from the results obviously Japan is lagging way behind Korea in actually using those money wisely.

But really, which other pop scene does this, as an industry?
Only the U.S.

Not true, while US is the most successful when it comes to exporting its entertainment worldwide it doesn't mean other countries don't do it - they just do it on a less scale or at a more targeted region/area. For example Hong Kong does this with Canto-pop and HK movies - HK exports its music and movies very fiercely during the 70s, 80s and 90s into the other Asian countries like China, Taiwan, Malaysia etc. India does this with Bollywood etc. There was once a documentary conducted with HK movie producers asking them why they were so aggressive with exporting their films, the answer given by one producer was along the lines that because the HK market alone is too small to support the HK movie industry, so every film they make has to take into consideration that it would also have to sell to China and Taiwan and other SE countries, and that was because those countries are culturally similar, and while each of those countries the market is small, combined together it was more than enough to sustain the industry and that is how HK movie became a major export and a huge industry for HK because the HK movie industry pushed for their stuff aggressively into the other markets - else they won't survive. Similar arguments had been made for Canto-pop as well. I suspect that we are seeing Kpop doing the same is more or less for the same reason - the domestic market is saturated and they needed to grow the market or else they won't survive. The problem with Japan is that they have no such drive, plus on top of which is that they are targeting the wrong region by focusing on the West - as I've mentioned numerous times before, or they are content with just tightening their belts a bit.

[asaqe]

Originally Posted by houkoholic

The irony is that it is the Japanese themselves talking about this, A LOT.
And here also lies the other most frustrating thing about Jpop (or even anime and other entertainment) industry - the Japanese government and some of the entertainment industry figures keeps beating the "Cool Japan" drum where the supposed aim is that by giving government subsidy to help the entire Japanese entertainment industry to make Japanese culture a major export product and turn the Japanese economy into one which has "soft power" ie not exporting physical goods like electronics and cars where Japan's competitiveness is declining rapidly to the other Asian countries but shift the export to focus on cultural and entertainment goods such as movies and songs - former PM of Japan Aso Taro was famous for pushing this idea during his term. In reality the people I've talked with tells me that the people involved just treat it as free government pork to be used and abused but never really used to actually promote Japanese cultures such as jpop/anime/manga/games overseas (and I don't doubt them, seeing as from how I see it working before, the entire "Cool Japan" program is a complete waste of money - I mean what is the point of spending the money on creating things like a maid cafe and host events in Osaka airport? It would be safe to assume people whom have decided to fly to Japan in the first place and is physically in Osaka is already interested in Japanese culture in the first place! It's especially frustrating looking at it from a few of the people I know whom ARE actually interested in prompting Japanese pop culture overseas). So go figure, from what I understand Korea's government is actually involved in setting up programs to promote their entertainment industry as well, but from the results obviously Japan is lagging way behind Korea in actually using those money wisely.

And one major hurdle is that if J-Idols were to be made for western appeal, they would have to shed a lot of things that defines the J-Idol from being forced to dating male celebs for publicity, be more sexually assertive women and have totally different sound compared to their native market.

Psy: lol omg guys watch me dance like a horsey.

USA: YES! EXCELLENT!

Psy: Wait what?

Rather this will be fitting

Psy: My company looks up to American Culture, brought rap and hip hop over to South Korea and I just enjoy making dance crazes and parodies Weird Al Style. I noticed that Hyuna formerly of Wonder Girls as she start from scratch as a rapper and visual of 4minute and became the crown jewel of Korean Idols as she is everything most Korean Idols isn't. She is a Korean girl with the American Spirit and she is going dance with me like a Horse.

1 Year later

Psy: I am back, and I am going to showcase one of Korea's most boldest acts that kept our music culture from becoming a mirror image of Japanese Pop Music which is now reduced to a shell of it's former glory but we take their money anyways since some are hungry for more sex appeal and all they got is a middle aged Japanese woman for that. I present to you Son GaIn of Brown Eyed Girls! Her group is know for their sexual maturity and doing things that will make my people at home offended at how sexual they are and GaIn is no slouch in terms of Sex Appeal. They also held the very first 19+ concert in South Korea and I am going to buy the rights to the song that made them famous.

USA: YES! EXCELLENT!

[sa547]

The problem with Japan is that they have no such drive, plus on top of which is that they are targeting the wrong region by focusing on the West - as I've mentioned numerous times before, or they are content with just tightening their belts a bit.

I pick the latter. Japan is still very much in an economic crunch and with an aging population, and the ones that could sell more records are boy bands, idol groups and a handful of seiyuu, sometimes complete with promotional freebies in the jewelcase or fan incentives to invest more in the performer(s). Also, what keeps Japanese pop culture goods from being acquired at affordable cost is the sticker price -- they charge more domestically than what is being sold in America (hence we see this reverse import ban imposed by some anime studios).

I still believe that most of the world -- through the Internet -- see Japanese pop culture as weird -- perpetuated by some TV programs -- and sadly will always be, and perhaps that is why it's easy to see how K-pop's cosmopolitan/metrosexual/"mature"/"super-clean"/perfect beauty/non-school-uniform-wearing image, and also made affordable and accessible, is easily embraced by the mainstream.

[asaqe]

Originally Posted by sa547

I pick the latter. Japan is still very much in an economic crunch and with an aging population, and the ones that could sell more records are boy bands, idol groups and a handful of seiyuu, sometimes complete with promotional freebies in the jewelcase or fan incentives to invest more in the performer(s). Also, what keeps Japanese pop culture goods from being acquired at affordable cost is the sticker price -- they charge more domestically than what is being sold in America (hence we see this reverse import ban imposed by some anime studios).

I still believe that most of the world -- through the Internet -- see Japanese pop culture as weird -- perpetuated by some TV programs -- and sadly will always be, and perhaps that is why it's easy to see how K-pop's cosmopolitan/metrosexual/"mature"/"super-clean"/perfect beauty/non-school-uniform-wearing image, and also made affordable and accessible, is easily embraced by the mainstream.

5dolls managed to spin the school uniform to something sexy by pulling a Britneu spears. Would Japan be comfortable watching the 48s act like Brtiney Spears though. Mayu and Yuki would graduate faster then ypu can say Mayuyu if that happens...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YN04xEbHdsQ

[houkoholic]

Originally Posted by asaqe

And one major hurdle is that if J-Idols were to be made for western appeal, they would have to shed a lot of things that defines the J-Idol from being forced to dating male celebs for publicity, be more sexually assertive women and have totally different sound compared to their native market.

And this is preciously one of the reason why I have said they are caught in this awkward position. To target a Western market they have to retool their entertainment industry which they can't do or not prepared to do because it will involve destroying their domestic market, and the Asian market where their stuff is more readily accepted they don't think the market has enough money to be bothering with. So they just retreat back to the safe place - the domestic market, and just kick the can down the road and leave the issue for another time.

Originally Posted by sa547

I still believe that most of the world -- through the Internet -- see Japanese pop culture as weird -- perpetuated by some TV programs -- and sadly will always be, and perhaps that is why it's easy to see how K-pop's cosmopolitan/metrosexual/"mature"/"super-clean"/perfect beauty/non-school-uniform-wearing image, and also made affordable and accessible, is easily embraced by the mainstream.

The thing is the internet has in many ways enabled the niche and fringe to flourish, the problem with the Japanese industry is that they don't realise that they could take that path - be PROUD of being different to mainstream - instead of trying to change the fundamentals of their product. The key though is that if you go niche/fringe, you also need a different business model and mindset to operate in, and right now that's what they DON'T have. Taking a "mainstream entertainment approach" with a niche product is simply not the way to go, and that involves thinking like "the Western market is be all and end all" or "we need to go and appeal to America!!!1111" which is what a lot of the people seems to be thinking of.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by houkoholic

And this is preciously one of the reason why I have said they are caught in this awkward position. To target a Western market they have to retool their entertainment industry which they can't do or not prepared to do because it will involve destroying their domestic market, and the Asian market where their stuff is more readily accepted they don't think the market has enough money to be bothering with. So they just retreat back to the safe place - the domestic market, and just kick the can down the road and leave the issue for another time.

I don't know about you but I'm seeing a gradual shift towards Asia. It's gradual, but it's noticeable enough if you look closely. There seem to be more overseas events like concerts and stuff springing up in Asia in recent years for one

[Bakaizer]

from my personal perspective
koreans spend a lot when making thier music videos than japanese,
some japanese music videos are not even being shown to other countries
i think the japanese music industry is catering more to asian countries than the west, as seen from a number of tours by japanese artists.
i find korean celebs more attractive than japanese celebs. scandals mami and rina, miwa are some exception
akb48 and hatsune miku may created a negative impact on the western perspective on the japanese music industry. it could be seen as unappealing and weird

if the japanese decided to make a music video like the song bubblepop, it can generate positive impact to the west but generate massive hate to the japanese public

p.s i want to make a thesis out of this

[asaqe]

Originally Posted by nikohowell

from my personal perspective
koreans spend a lot when making thier music videos than japanese,
some japanese music videos are not even being shown to other countries
i think the japanese music industry is catering more to asian countries than the west, as seen from a number of tours by japanese artists.
i find korean celebs more attractive than japanese celebs. scandals mami and rina, miwa are some exception
akb48 and hatsune miku may created a negative impact on the western perspective on the japanese music industry. it could be seen as unappealing and weird

if the japanese decided to make a music video like the song bubblepop, it can generate positive impact to the west but generate massive hate to the japanese public

p.s i want to make a thesis out of this

Well technically they already got stuff like that but it isn't on the Oricon Charts, so by promoting the more "westernized" brands this will shift the industry perceptions a bit.

[houkoholic]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

I don't know about you but I'm seeing a gradual shift towards Asia. It's gradual, but it's noticeable enough if you look closely. There seem to be more overseas events like concerts and stuff springing up in Asia in recent years for one

No I see them, but the majority of those are the results of locally founded companies of the respective Asian countries inviting them to come over rather than the Japanese themselves taking the initiative to actually target the Asian market, so they aren't exactly the same thing, as inviting artists to do a concert and events had always happened since the 80s when Japan's musical influence in the Asian region is arguably at its highest.

The exception as I've said before is ironically AKB48 - which has official stores in countries like Hong Kong etc.

[Soliloquy]

Originally Posted by sa547

This is why, with the exception of some Asians who sings just like Celine Dion, most types of Asian pop music -- whether it's Japanese, Chinese or the obvious Korean -- have true difficulty penetrating the Western market. The only time they do get actual exposure -- mostly negative -- is when they commit some gaffe on camera or a dumb mistake on Youtube and it becomes viral.

Makes hell lot of sense, I mean why did William Hung get viral? It's not just Asian but overall pop music has to be gimmicky to get big. Every time European pop makes the chart in US, it's because it has something in the music video that's fun.

I don't personally think Asian pop music industry has to do nothing much to attract more western fans. There's not much profit to be made unless it's a really big band. Even if they do the world tour, I bet there are lot more expense to cover. Really the only Japanese pop star who probably could attract a lot of fans from the other countries would be Kyary Pamyu only because of her major exposure from the culture magazines. Otherwise I don't seem to see other J-pop musicians making headlines when they announce a tour.

[yindesu]

I don't think anyone mentioned it yet, but MAN WITH A MISSION is going to release an album in America in 2014. So there's that to look forward to and analyze...

[sa547]

Originally Posted by nikohowell

from my personal perspective
koreans spend a lot when making thier music videos than japanese,
some japanese music videos are not even being shown to other countries
i think the japanese music industry is catering more to asian countries than the west, as seen from a number of tours by japanese artists.
i find korean celebs more attractive than japanese celebs. scandals mami and rina, miwa are some exception
akb48 and hatsune miku may created a negative impact on the western perspective on the japanese music industry. it could be seen as unappealing and weird

if the japanese decided to make a music video like the song bubblepop, it can generate positive impact to the west but generate massive hate to the japanese public

p.s i want to make a thesis out of this

You only have to blame the sensationalist sites and even some legitimate news outlets for distorting the image of j-pop, or sending the wrong message.

To compete with the Korean music industry directly through great physical beauty or skills alone goes against the grain of both Japanese performers and fans, who mostly prefer the "down-to-earth"/"girl-next-door" approach; some fans don't want to be scared or intimidated.

So quoting this from a FAQ:

Q: Why aren't AKB48 members as pretty as American/Korean/European pop singers?

A: This usually comes from the fact that AKB48 isn't trying to do the same things as the people you're thinking of. The members aren't trying to reach for perfection in looks/personality/skills etc. it's more about trying to create character of a person who seems approachable, cute and ultimately real. Rather than being someone to lookup to or admire, AKB members are much closer to being your surrogate best friend, daughter or girlfriend (depending on the idol or fan in question) that you never could meet in real life because the hands off nature of a 'relationship' with a celebrity doesn't necessarily allow for the same downsides as real ones. This isn't to say that Japan doesn't also have these celebrities, because it certainly does, but that is not the market which AKB is targeted at.

This approach the group uses is why I embrace 48G, I am not intimidated by it but rather I'm more happy the way they look and they make as much mistakes as I do.

To be frank, I'm still very much new to the J-idol scene via Kawamori, having come from a diet consisting of 90's rock with all genres blended in, with hip-hop, some anisongs, and the last time I thought pop music was good was when Britney Spears got it right before turning "mature".

Don't get angry but when this K-pop craze first came in, I didn't care simply because I don't know but I couldn't make the connection with their music but instead what makes me feel disturbed is that some of the performers look more alike, or too beautiful. I mean, when SNSD came in, I was like... "What?" blinking in disbelief, and all I see more are... long legs.

IMO Some people are into k-pop now partly because of the physical attraction, the clean image, the near-heavenly perfection that makes you think titular idol in the novel "Idoru" (or Sharon Apple), so much that some sasaeng are willing to do anything to be at least six inches of proximity to their favorite obsessions.

Originally Posted by Soliloquy

Makes hell lot of sense, I mean why did William Hung get viral? It's not just Asian but overall pop music has to be gimmicky to get big. Every time European pop makes the chart in US, it's because it has something in the music video that's fun.

Yes, now I remember him. For some time he gained minor fame because of the way he sang, and even after he was rejected nevertheless he had a sizable fanbase.

The case of Psy is one which it took an unusual horse-riding dance routine, high-def video, and a satirical storyline to gain unprecedented amount of fame -- of course, on Youtube, and Americans thought it was hilarious and got popular in a matter of weeks.

It is known enough that in the case of Clarice, she gained fame with her diva voice (seems that having this high voice is where our women are really good at) only because someone submitted a video of her singing to a certain Ellen Degeneres, and then pulled that girl from near-obscurity in the Philippines to American fame.

Originally Posted by Soliloquy

I don't personally think Asian pop music industry has to do nothing much to attract more western fans. There's not much profit to be made unless it's a really big band. Even if they do the world tour, I bet there are lot more expense to cover. Really the only Japanese pop star who probably could attract a lot of fans from the other countries would be Kyary Pamyu only because of her major exposure from the culture magazines. Otherwise I don't seem to see other J-pop musicians making headlines when they announce a tour.

Last time was L'arc en Ciel, which they were the first Japanese group to jampack Madison Square Garden.

Yes, to go global means spending a big deal of money to fund world tours, to get into language schools, and this includes having to sign agreements with other record companies, but then before that the record execs want to see if the product is truly viable in non-traditional or foreign markets -- it must be marketable, it must sell, must turn a profit, and if that keeps on rolling in the cash they're willing to bring in more.

Bottom line: sometimes I feel I prefer the way 48G should be, like I'm more okay that the idol music I listen to is a best-kept-secret (or if you like, rather "underground") than to see it saturated everywhere in my country (which I feel isn't still ready for it yet, and is prone to embracing and then later disposing trends and fads).

[Soliloquy]

Originally Posted by sa547

Bottom line: sometimes I feel I prefer the way 48G should be, like I'm more okay that the idol music I listen to is a best-kept-secret (or if you like, rather "underground") than to see it saturated everywhere in my country (which I feel isn't still ready for it yet, and is prone to embracing and then later disposing trends and fads).

I prefer it that way too. Don't know why Japanese music industry has to compete with Korean music industry. I must be biased but I don't feel I like K-pop too much. It's little pointless to try to copy what the Korean music industry is doing to appeal to the western audience. It may just be me but I don't even really care for music videos as long as the music is good and the voice is appealing. I don't think there never was problem with the Japanese music industry but the user by the name of Mdo7 just soapboxing.

And one more thing, American pop singers are pretty? I must have higher standard or something but I never really thought that Katy Perry or Rhianna are that pretty. Taylor Swift may be attractive but the music wise, it's absolute snore. I guess it's just the eyes of the beholder.

[barcode120x]

Just a random fact that I found out last night at my cousin's Christmas party was that I'm a "distant" cousin to AKB48's Team K member Akimoto Sayaka. My cousin is 2nd cousins with her (so they are related by blood through his mom) but I am related to my cousin by his dad. So, I'm only a distant cousin, but I can still say I a Jpop star runs in our family hahahaha!

[Athena]

Originally Posted by sa547

Don't get angry but when this K-pop craze first came in, I didn't care simply because I don't know but I couldn't make the connection with their music but instead what makes me feel disturbed is that some of the performers look more alike, or too beautiful. I mean, when SNSD came in, I was like... "What?" blinking in disbelief, and all I see more are... long legs.

A bit off-topic. Many mentioned plastic surgery, but what I've noticed is that the lightning, camera angles really do the trick even without plastic surgery. I compared a Korean MV with the live performance and it can be so different.

But the attraction to k-pop is not quite about beauty and stuff. As I probably said earlier in the thread, it's about being really catchy without even understanding the lyrics, music-wise or video-wise.

Originally Posted by nikohowell

akb48 and hatsune miku may created a negative impact on the western perspective on the japanese music industry. it could be seen as unappealing and weird

if the japanese decided to make a music video like the song bubblepop, it can generate positive impact to the west but generate massive hate to the japanese public

I don't think AKB48's music affected western perspective of Japanese music. Rather, it seems to be the cringey events related to AKB48 that make it harder for people in America/Europe to appreciate it. And a positive impact needs to be viral in Japan before going in the West, so it can't generate hate in Japan itself.

[asaqe]

Originally Posted by Soliloquy

I prefer it that way too. Don't know why Japanese music industry has to compete with Korean music industry. I must be biased but I don't feel I like K-pop too much. It's little pointless to try to copy what the Korean music industry is doing to appeal to the western audience. It may just be me but I don't even really care for music videos as long as the music is good and the voice is appealing. I don't think there never was problem with the Japanese music industry but the user by the name of Mdo7 just soapboxing.

And one more thing, American pop singers are pretty? I must have higher standard or something but I never really thought that Katy Perry or Rhianna are that pretty. Taylor Swift may be attractive but the music wise, it's absolute snore. I guess it's just the eyes of the beholder.

Well it is more about avoid becoming hated. Dont have to be liked completely but keeping some sense of foreign relations keeps you from being viewed negatively. and given the eecent backlash towards japan. Its proof Japan need to make an effort to look less like a pariah to the west. If KPOP goes out of their way to make fun of JPOP like Blink 182 did with all the small things. Jpop could take a hit.

And what people are looking for is model style prettiness