Fate/Zero - Episode 8 Discussion / Poll

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

One thing that I kinda get from this episode is... Kirei was actually jealous of Kiritsugu have two beautiful ladies who would die for him??

[KyriaL]

Only regret is there was no chance to see berserker in action in this episode.

[Nochgo]

Originally Posted by iBeast

Am I the only one that doesn't like KK? And I think his voice actor is too deep... he should have a much higher voice compared to EK.

How can you not like Nakata Jouji -1 Like. His boss voice is just too awesome, perfect for villains and more.
The episode felt quite fast faced, and I wish the battles were drawn out a bit more.

[Randomzx]

Originally Posted by molitar

I am really hating Fate Zero.. too damn dark compared to Fate/Stay Night.. and fuck! I hate this Kirei doesn't get killed in this season sucks so fucking bad! He in my book is the ULTIMATE DAMN EVIL! Ilya only used a binding magic that is about all she knew and how to be kind.. she was no threat to him but the EVIL FUCKER killed her for no damn reason at all! And he is a damn coward! Pretending to be dead so he can use the Church to hide and attack like a damn coward! Killing the weak! And defiling the name of God pretending to be a priest! He could be the anti christ himself he is so damn evil!

NO ONE is more damn evil than HIM because he hides behind a false face! Even the insane one killing children was not as evil because he did not pretend to be something he was not! The one that SHOULD DIE survives which ruins this whole season for me knowing someone as evil and two faced as him survived!

I hate bad ending Anime so I may just have to stop watching this one before it gets worse.. I loved Fate/Stay Night their was more honor among the contestants and civility not all this back stabbing, back biting, petty killing anyone just to kill as this one was. Might as go watch a stupid slasher movie where the killer always catches up to the ones running when the killer is lame.. that is the way this anime is going for me. I feel like I'm watching one of them stupid horror movies than an anime where the Heroic Spirits fight with the honor they have as Heroic Spirits. Ugg.. I was so looking forward to this anime but if I had seen this one first I would have never watched Fate/Stay Night it's so twisted and sick compared to the first one.

Except the F/SN visual novel is just as dark as Fate/Zero (a lot people believed the anime version was a watered down bad adaptation). Especially since Shirou dies in all sorts of gruesome and gory ways in the bad endings, some even done by Illya herself.
In fact, Heaven's Feel route of the visual novel was the darkest route of that game.

Also the F/SN anime skipped out on a lot of details about what kind of person Kotomine Kirei really is.

[jeroz]

Originally Posted by molitar

I am really hating Fate Zero.. too damn dark compared to Fate/Stay Night.. and fuck! I hate this Kirei doesn't get killed in this season sucks so fucking bad! He in my book is the ULTIMATE DAMN EVIL! Ilya only used a binding magic that is about all she knew and how to be kind.. she was no threat to him but the EVIL FUCKER killed her for no damn reason at all! And he is a damn coward! Pretending to be dead so he can use the Church to hide and attack like a damn coward! Killing the weak! And defiling the name of God pretending to be a priest! He could be the anti christ himself he is so damn evil!

NO ONE is more damn evil than HIM because he hides behind a false face! Even the insane one killing children was not as evil because he did not pretend to be something he was not! The one that SHOULD DIE survives which ruins this whole season for me knowing someone as evil and two faced as him survived!

I hate bad ending Anime so I may just have to stop watching this one before it gets worse.. I loved Fate/Stay Night their was more honor among the contestants and civility not all this back stabbing, back biting, petty killing anyone just to kill as this one was. Might as go watch a stupid slasher movie where the killer always catches up to the ones running when the killer is lame.. that is the way this anime is going for me. I feel like I'm watching one of them stupid horror movies than an anime where the Heroic Spirits fight with the honor they have as Heroic Spirits. Ugg.. I was so looking forward to this anime but if I had seen this one first I would have never watched Fate/Stay Night it's so twisted and sick compared to the first one.

seems like someone is still stuck in the pretentious mindset shared by Saber/Lancer/Kayneth.

welcome to the real world, this is war, not sport.

[Rethice]

I know I'm going to stir a hornets nest here, but I did -not- enjoy this episode one bit. While everyone else was grumbling at the slowness of episode 6, I feel the complete pointlessness of this episode was far worse.

An entire episode of fighting, with 3 situations which could have ended in deaths. I understand Irisviel's survival, but two bullets - one in the shoulder and one in the stomach, with at least several liters of blood vomited out - how on earth is Lancer's master still alive?

The answer: Frustrating shonen logic, dragging things out when they don't need to be. This is not an endless series like most shonens, and I was expecting much better than to see these sorts of "last minute escapes" or "miraculous survivals" in Fate/Zero. Surviving the building explosion, fair enough, but those two bullets? No.

Not to mention Caster's escape. There is -NO- logical reason for Lancer to have stopped his attack and waited to taunt Caster for a few minutes instead of taking the initiative and finishing him, or at least disarming the book from him, instead of trimming the corner like he has something against the dog-ear bookmarks Caster must be using.

This episode wreaked of amateur shonen stereotypes. I was promised plot twists and surprising deaths to keep you on the edge of your seat by people hailing Urobuchi Gen as a ruthless author, not unlike George R. Martin of the "Song of Fire and Ice" series. Instead we're now one quarter through the entirety of the story, and not a single servant or master has been eliminated, including minor ones like Caster that could have easily been removed this episode. Even killing off Lancer's master would have made more sense, to put an end to the cliche' chemistry of Lancer and Saber's mutual respect, because with Lancer still around, I'm going to get incredibly bored of the fact Saber is crippled and can't fight at her full potential.

At the rate things are going, the other servants are going to be rushed and not get the attention they deserved, a fatal mistake of DEEN's F/SN adaption.

God I hope I'm wrong, I have really high expectations for this series.

To the people complaining about F/Z being too dark in comparison to F/SN... All I can say is "You're watching the wrong anime"

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Rethice

I know I'm going to stir a hornets nest here, but I did -not- enjoy this episode one bit. While everyone else was grumbling at the slowness of episode 6, I feel the complete pointlessness of this episode was far worse.

An entire episode of fighting, with 3 situations which could have ended in deaths. I understand Irisviel's survival, but two bullets - one in the shoulder and one in the stomach, with at least several liters of blood vomited out - how on earth is Lancer's master still alive?

The answer: Frustrating shonen logic, dragging things out when they don't need to be. This is not an endless series like most shonens, and I was expecting much better than to see these sorts of "last minute escapes" or "miraculous survivals" in Fate/Zero. Surviving the building explosion, fair enough, but those two bullets? No.

Not to mention Caster's escape. There is -NO- logical reason for Lancer to have stopped his attack and waited to taunt Caster for a few minutes instead of taking the initiative and finishing him, or at least disarming the book from him, instead of trimming the corner like he has something against the dog-ear bookmarks Caster must be using.

This episode wreaked of amateur shonen stereotypes. I was promised plot twists and surprising deaths to keep you on the edge of your seat by people hailing Urobuchi Gen as a ruthless author, not unlike George R. Martin of the "Song of Fire and Ice" series. Instead we're now one quarter through the entirety of the story, and not a single servant or master has been eliminated, including minor ones like Caster that could have easily been removed this episode. Even killing off Lancer's master would have made more sense, to put an end to the cliche' chemistry of Lancer and Saber's mutual respect, because with Lancer still around, I'm going to get incredibly bored of the fact Saber is crippled and can't fight at her full potential.

At the rate things are going, the other servants are going to be rushed and not get the attention they deserved, a fatal mistake of DEEN's F/SN adaption.

So, basically, conflict and battles can't be enjoyable, relevant or worthwhile unless there are deaths? Might as well drop the show now if that's the mindset you're going to be watching it with.

Kayneth didn't get hit with two bullets. He completely blocked the second one with his mercury barriers. Only since it was an origin bullet it fried his magic circuits and now he's crippled, most likely for life. Nothing "pointless" about a development like that. And he survived because Lancer managed to come to his aid just after the damage was inflicted, which most likely allowed him to get him to Sola-Ui in time for healing. Remember, these are extremely proficient magi who have been show to almost instantly heal wounds before.

And why should have Lancer tried to disarm Caster of his book after he'd just, for all intents and purposes, rendered it useless by striking it with a cursed lance whose inflicted damage doesn't heal? The book was already a non-factor, which is why Caster decided to make his escape. If it was still of any use, he could and would have just summoned some more fiends.

And who said Caster is a minor Servant? He's been the number one source of conflict and intrigue for the past three episodes, does that sound minor to you? It was pretty clear from the start that this series has what you'd call an ensemble cast. You just decided on your own that he's minor because you wanted to see him die an early death here.

And how exactly does properly fleshing out Lancer and Caster instead of rushing to get rid of their characters just to satisfy the viewers eager to see some early popcorn entertainment deaths automatically mean that the rest of the Servants will be rushed and underexposed? If anything it shows Urobuchi won't just mindlessly kill off his characters and is actually concerned with giving them the proper characterisation and development before killing them, so their deaths can actually mean something and have a semblance of visceral impact on the viewer. We've only seen roughly 32% of the series, there's still plenty of time to focus on the characters that haven't been the centre of attention in the past few episodes. You're jumping the gun way too soon here.

[Kaiba]

Not to mention Caster's escape. There is -NO- logical reason for Lancer to have stopped his attack and waited to taunt Caster for a few minutes instead of taking the initiative and finishing him, or at least disarming the book from him, instead of trimming the corner like he has something against the dog-ear bookmarks Caster must be using.

I'm not sure what part you're confused with in that part. It's not like what's going on outside the castle and inside are at different times. Lancer harmed the book, but then Kayneth got defeated, and Lancer is obviously going to place a higher priority on protecting his Master than defeating Caster.

I am really hating Fate Zero.. too damn dark compared to Fate/Stay Night.. and fuck! I hate this Kirei doesn't get killed in this season sucks so fucking bad! He in my book is the ULTIMATE DAMN EVIL! Ilya only used a binding magic that is about all she knew and how to be kind.. she was no threat to him but the EVIL FUCKER killed her for no damn reason at all! And he is a damn coward! Pretending to be dead so he can use the Church to hide and attack like a damn coward! Killing the weak! And defiling the name of God pretending to be a priest! He could be the anti christ himself he is so damn evil!

1. Irisviel bound him to the tree so he couldn't stop Maiya from getting up and shooting him in the head, it's why she was calling for Maiya. It's certainly not kind.
2. It's not his idea to hide behind the church, it's that of Tohsaka and his father.
3. If Kotomine wanted Irisviel dead, he could have. As others have said in this thread, if he didn't do what he did to Irisviel, than Saber would have continued to pursue him, and then he's dead. Perfectly justifiable, given that this is a war.

[giorno]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

And why should have Lancer tried to disarm Caster of his book after he'd just, for all intents and purposes, rendered it useless by striking it with a cursed lance whose inflicted damage doesn't heal?

Wrong spear.Gae Dearg nullifies prana(it's kind of an ultimate counter against berserker's or Emiya's NPs) The book already regenerated

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by giorno

Wrong spear.Gae Dearg nullifies prana(it's kind of an ultimate counter against berserker's or Emiya's NPs) The book already regenerated

Right, seems like I got the two spears mixed up. Guess its colour being red made me instinctively think it was the cursed one.

Still, the fact remains that the book's summoned creatures were nullified with that attack, even if not permanently like I had assumed. The prana supply was effectively terminated, so Caster would have had to do the summoning spell over again in order to get his offence back on track and clearly Saber and Lancer had him cornered well enough that he wouldn't be able to do so, hence him choosing to flee instead.

[sento]

Originally Posted by Rethice

At the rate things are going, the other servants are going to be rushed and not get the attention they deserved, a fatal mistake of DEEN's F/SN adaption

Not really, they are going at very good pace, is just that shit hits the fan later and volumes 3 and 4 are pretty intense.

Caster and Kayneth survivals (even if Kayneth is just crippled for life) are plot devices for a reason.

[Randomzx]

Originally Posted by Rethice

An entire episode of fighting, with 3 situations which could have ended in deaths. I understand Irisviel's survival, but two bullets - one in the shoulder and one in the stomach, with at least several liters of blood vomited out - how on earth is Lancer's master still alive?

Kayneth wasn't shot AT ALL by the second bullet, it was successfully blocked. But the bullet works by destroying magic circuits depending on how many are used. In Kayneth, he was practically using all of them to create the defense, thus destroying all his magic circuit, and in the process also burning out most of his nerves.
Again, Kayneth WASN'T HIT by the second bullet, and he already superficially healed the first wound.
However, magic circuits can't be healed or recovered, so he's NOT going to be able function well to say the least.

Not to mention Caster's escape. There is -NO- logical reason for Lancer to have stopped his attack and waited to taunt Caster for a few minutes instead of taking the initiative and finishing him, or at least disarming the book from him, instead of trimming the corner like he has something against the dog-ear bookmarks Caster must be using.

Lancer was hesitating because he knew that his Master was in danger, and had to decide between finishing Caster off or hurry back to defend his master.

This episode wreaked of amateur shonen stereotypes. I was promised plot twists and surprising deaths to keep you on the edge of your seat by people hailing Urobuchi Gen as a ruthless author, not unlike George R. Martin of the "Song of Fire and Ice" series. Instead we're now one quarter through the entirety of the story, and not a single servant or master has been eliminated, including minor ones like Caster that could have easily been removed this episode. Even killing off Lancer's master would have made more sense, to put an end to the cliche' chemistry of Lancer and Saber's mutual respect, because with Lancer still around, I'm going to get incredibly bored of the fact Saber is crippled and can't fight at her full potential.

All of these is a setup for pretty much of all the characters to suffer horribly before they die.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by molitar

I am really hating Fate Zero.. too damn dark compared to Fate/Stay Night.. and fuck! I hate this Kirei doesn't get killed in this season sucks so fucking bad! He in my book is the ULTIMATE DAMN EVIL! Ilya only used a binding magic that is about all she knew and how to be kind.. she was no threat to him but the EVIL FUCKER killed her for no damn reason at all! And he is a damn coward! Pretending to be dead so he can use the Church to hide and attack like a damn coward! Killing the weak! And defiling the name of God pretending to be a priest! He could be the anti christ himself he is so damn evil!

NO ONE is more damn evil than HIM because he hides behind a false face! Even the insane one killing children was not as evil because he did not pretend to be something he was not! The one that SHOULD DIE survives which ruins this whole season for me knowing someone as evil and two faced as him survived!

I hate bad ending Anime so I may just have to stop watching this one before it gets worse.. I loved Fate/Stay Night their was more honor among the contestants and civility not all this back stabbing, back biting, petty killing anyone just to kill as this one was. Might as go watch a stupid slasher movie where the killer always catches up to the ones running when the killer is lame.. that is the way this anime is going for me. I feel like I'm watching one of them stupid horror movies than an anime where the Heroic Spirits fight with the honor they have as Heroic Spirits. Ugg.. I was so looking forward to this anime but if I had seen this one first I would have never watched Fate/Stay Night it's so twisted and sick compared to the first one.

Wow... you hate it for all the reasons we love it. I think you are misunderstanding a lot and letting a poor anime adaptation cloud your judgement. Play the Type-Moon games and then come back anew.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by molitar

I am really hating Fate Zero.. too damn dark compared to Fate/Stay Night.. and fuck! I hate this Kirei doesn't get killed in this season sucks so fucking bad! He in my book is the ULTIMATE DAMN EVIL! Ilya only used a binding magic that is about all she knew and how to be kind.. she was no threat to him but the EVIL FUCKER killed her for no damn reason at all! And he is a damn coward! Pretending to be dead so he can use the Church to hide and attack like a damn coward! Killing the weak! And defiling the name of God pretending to be a priest! He could be the anti christ himself he is so damn evil!

1) Iri, not Ilya. You're confusing mother and daughter.
2) He didn't kill Iri.
3) He didn't pretend to be dead. He feigned that Assassin had died.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by molitar

I am really hating Fate Zero.. too damn dark compared to Fate/Stay Night.. and fuck!

Molitar, have you play Fate/Stay Night VN/game? If not, then the problem is, DEEN's Fate/Stay Night anime is a different beast from the VN/game.

From the perspective of those who already played the game, DEEN's Fate/Stay Night is a lousy adaptation that mess with the routes. Still, from the perspective of a newbie, DEEN's Fate/Stay Night is a good (if not great, depends on the newbie's experience) anime with great concept and overall more cheerful and harem-y nature. There's nothing wrong in liking DEEN's Fate, but if you do, then Fate/Zero may not be a show for you. At least until you play Fate/Stay Night VN first and see how you like its story.

Believe me, (assuming that you haven't play the VN) I know how you feel coz I'm a newbie too when I saw DEEN's Fate.

[Ragna92]

Originally Posted by molitar

I am really hating Fate Zero.. too damn dark compared to Fate/Stay Night.. and fuck! I hate this Kirei doesn't get killed in this season sucks so fucking bad! He in my book is the ULTIMATE DAMN EVIL! Ilya only used a binding magic that is about all she knew and how to be kind.. she was no threat to him but the EVIL FUCKER killed her for no damn reason at all! And he is a damn coward! Pretending to be dead so he can use the Church to hide and attack like a damn coward! Killing the weak! And defiling the name of God pretending to be a priest! He could be the anti christ himself he is so damn evil!

NO ONE is more damn evil than HIM because he hides behind a false face! Even the insane one killing children was not as evil because he did not pretend to be something he was not! The one that SHOULD DIE survives which ruins this whole season for me knowing someone as evil and two faced as him survived!

I hate bad ending Anime so I may just have to stop watching this one before it gets worse.. I loved Fate/Stay Night their was more honor among the contestants and civility not all this back stabbing, back biting, petty killing anyone just to kill as this one was. Might as go watch a stupid slasher movie where the killer always catches up to the ones running when the killer is lame.. that is the way this anime is going for me. I feel like I'm watching one of them stupid horror movies than an anime where the Heroic Spirits fight with the honor they have as Heroic Spirits. Ugg.. I was so looking forward to this anime but if I had seen this one first I would have never watched Fate/Stay Night it's so twisted and sick compared to the first one.

What.. doesn't sound like you even know Fate stay night really. If you just watched the anime then you are really misunderstanding the Fate series. I'm guessing it's just not made for you. I guess you should try playing the Fate stay night VN(it's really worth it) if you get the time.

[Ragna92]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Molitar, have you play Fate/Stay Night VN/game? If not, then the problem is, DEEN's Fate/Stay Night anime is a different beast from the VN/game.

From the perspective of those who already played the game, DEEN's Fate/Stay Night is a lousy adaptation that mess with the routes. Still, from the perspective of a newbie, DEEN's Fate/Stay Night is a good (if not great, depends on the newbie's experience) anime with great concept and overall more cheerful and harem-y nature. There's nothing wrong in liking DEEN's Fate, but if you do, then Fate/Zero may not be a show for you. At least until you play Fate/Stay Night VN first and see how you like its story.

Believe me, (assuming that you haven't play the VN) I know how you feel coz I'm a newbie too when I saw DEEN's Fate.

I'm not sure about that either. I know a lot of people who watched only Deen's Fate and liked it, but they are saying Zero is much much better. Actually most people who watched Deen's fate are starting to say the FSN anime is shit, just like we VN players did after playing the FSN VN.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Ragna92

I'm not sure about that either. I know a lot of people who watched only Deen's Fate and liked it, but they are saying Zero is much much better.

Yeah, I do said to Molitar that Fate/Zero may not be a show for him/her. So, there's no definitive point there.

Originally Posted by Ragna92

Actually most people who watched Deen's fate are starting to say the FSN anime is shit, just like we VN players did after playing the FSN VN.

Actually, that is also my point (for some people). That's why I said to Molitar to play FSN VN.

[Kagayaki]

Originally Posted by Rethice

This episode wreaked of amateur shonen stereotypes. I was promised plot twists and surprising deaths to keep you on the edge of your seat by people hailing Urobuchi Gen as a ruthless author, not unlike George R. Martin of the "Song of Fire and Ice" series. Instead we're now one quarter through the entirety of the story, and not a single servant or master has been eliminated,

Spoiler for Madoka, for comparision:

If people watched Madoka and then assumed that we were going see people dying unexpectedly early on just because that was the way Urobuchi always rolled, they were subtly mistaken.

In Madoka, Mami's death made a point. The reason the girls' contract was so tragic was that the people signing their lives away were children who couldn't be expected to know what that really meant. None of them realized how horrible it was to live by fighting, so Mami's death had a thematic purpose.

On the other hand, killing someone off in the last episode of Fate/Zero would have served no thematic purpose. In Fate/Zero the masters are adults. When you're an adult and you sign your life away by entering a deathmatch, the expectation is that you know what you're getting yourself into, so when you actually die after willingly undertaking that risk, it's not particularly tragic. All the servants already spent their entire lives fighting, died, and exist outside of time, so killing either them or the masters off unexpectedly just to prove that fighting is dangerous is thematically pointless.

Also, here we already know the ending thanks to Fate/Stay Night, so it's a foregone conclusion who's going to die. IMO, the goals of Fate/Zero are to be a character study and to see everyone suffer as much as possible. We'll see that there are far worse things that can happen to adults than unexpected deaths. So while Fate/Zero might have a different method of trolling than Madoka, if anything the author is more ruthless here.

Originally Posted by Rethice

including minor ones like Caster that could have easily been removed this episode. Even killing off Lancer's master would have made more sense, to put an end to the cliche' chemistry of Lancer and Saber's mutual respect, because with Lancer still around, I'm going to get incredibly bored of the fact Saber is crippled and can't fight at her full potential.

Everything happens for a reason, and when you say "could have easily been removed" it's not like the author's goal here is just to kill everyone as soon as possible. Sure, it would've been easy to kill Caster. Actually, it would've been pretty easy to kill just about anyone, except for the people we know survive to the end. However, killing people for the sake of killing people is not the point.

On the other hand, if you're complaining about the specific methods the author is using to get to his goal, that's valid. There might be arguments to be made that Caster's escape (or more generally the most recent set of battles) could have been better executed.

Originally Posted by Rethice

At the rate things are going, the other servants are going to be rushed and not get the attention they deserved, a fatal mistake of DEEN's F/SN adaption.

God I hope I'm wrong, I have really high expectations for this series.

Don't worry, we're going at the right pace and precisely according to the novel.

[king12354]

So Iri knows that Maiya likes Kiritsugu? And she's okay with it?

That works.